America the myth

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

DEFINITELYDISTURBED, Please look back at your post and notice that the points you make are all bickering. Sure the politicians lie. It is because they have to make impossible promises in order to get elected. You don't vote for those people, however, you are different. The voters are wrong so you believe that voting, democratic systems are wrong? . . .that corporations are more honest and hence we don't need government to regulate them? And since government leaders have money does that mean they are as affluent and classist as the CEOs of corporations? Or are you just in a bad mood today . . . ?

OK then................................................................................................

I don't even know where to begin with this.....so I wont.....crap already did......d@mn my attempt to be polite with at least some sort of reply......well fine then I just wont finish with this..............BTW never said that democracy was wrong...never said voting was wrong...have said many times that this mess is the fault of voters and therefore not my fault as I didn't put the idiots that made it into office...

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Oh yeah one more thing....

Mr Questor please use quote thingy when quoting.....would make your post much easier to read.:doh!:

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Sorry Moonman.....almost forgot bout you...

almost.

 

I don't like the battle between religion and science, I think it's a fools errand that will only hurt both sides in the long run but so far the only way to make this running battle go away is for one side to surrender and I don't think that is going to happen.

. No hope for that...there is no way for them to coexist. But one way to reduce the heat of the battle would be for the Govt. to extend to science the same protection it offers religion with regard to defamation and discrimination....after fair is fair...treat vandalism on a scientific or medical facility by religious zealots as a hate crime, same as for instance a sinagog vandalised by neo-nazis.. etc.etc.

[questor]

DD, I'm happy you have found some things to like in your own country. In reading most of the posts here, I had begun to think that the USA was nothing but a den of thieves, robbers and miscreants. If you really want to appreciate the US, live in a foreign country for awhile to get the real flavor. Too bad all Americans can't do that, it would work wonders on their appreciation meter. Maybe the next time your fellow posters and countrymen want to pile on the US, you could remind them of the good things we have. If you are not pleased with our government, is it because they have screwed you, thwarted your ambitions, haven't given you something you deserve, or you just don't like authority? Keep in mind, all countries have governments.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

You miss the whole issue.

 

The American Govt screwing those it was built to serve extends alllllllllllll the way back to the beginning.

 

With a long list of lipservice rights which are still continually being whittled away.

 

In a country where all men were created equal blacks had no rights and native americans were euthanized in the name of expansion and progress.

 

In a nation where you have the right to own property you will never actually own your property....Name one other thing which you own but must still pay for every year and which increases in cost to continue to possess it as time goes by.

 

Etc. Etc...

 

We'd have one hell of a good govt. If they'd merely live up to the beliefs and documents it was founded upon. (minus the racism)....Which our govt. has yet to ever do....hence my extreme disdain for Unca Scam.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

I look at the promise of what america "is" as presented to the average bloke from preschool on is much akin to being told you've won a pleasure cruise only to discover upon setting sail that your "cruise" will actually amount to you scraping paint in the bilge for the duration much to the "pleasure" of the ships captain and owners.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

If good christians go to heaven when they die why they want to live?

If you have absolute faith in your religion and that in an afterlife things will be better than in this life... why morn for the deceased? Why fear death? Why want to prolong miserable existance here instead of doing your best to get to the good part?

 

These are the questions which confuse me about religious folk....cuz it just doesn't make sence to me.

 

A Christian should celebrate the death of a loved one as they would celebrate a birth if they truly believe.

 

A christian should never fear for their lives if they truly believe.

 

A christian should be glad when they here they will soon die from cancer (after all you're goin to heaven right?)

 

Sorry but with all the mention of religion above I just had to bring up the most valid arguments I have against religious BS.

 

BTW I firmly believe in separation of church, state, and science and do hereby on this the 17th day of December 2008 issue a restraining order barring religion from coming to within 500 meters of science, govt., encourage it to seek professional help and common sense.;)

[Moontanman]

Moon, your quote: '' I think he Conservatives fear of giving their money to the poor is a smoke screen for people who are stingy and fear the lower classes.''

Who do you think are the major philanthropists in this country? I can give you a clue, the Rockefellers, Mellons, Carnegies, Gates and Buffets are not poor. Not all of them are conservative either, but I think they would agree that earning your own money is better than a handout. America does have a wealth disparity. How did the rich get rich? Figure that out and follow the same principles, maybe you'll get the same result. Why do the poor remain poor? Look at what they do and how they act and the decisions they make, doesn't that give you the answer?

What would you say is the best way to even the playing field? Would it be to make the rich pay more, or would it be to empower the poor to earn more? When you rob the rich to give to the poor, what do you get? Do you get a better society or do you get what we have now, a society that seems to hate their own country and thinks it is cool to refuse to pledge allegiance to it or honor its traditions?

The new administration will show us a different form of governing that will probably lean further toward socialism. Maybe that will please some people who have not made it with capitalism. We no longer have the United States, we have the Fragmented States and half the country seems to think it is good. I think any system which does not encourage and enable a person to be the best he can be will be left behind in the new global society.

 

You didn't really read my post did you questor? How much further can we go with socialism? We are already a socialist country, we have bailed out the rich and greedy, why not a few of the poor. I have never stated that i like the idea of giving money to the poor, I like to help the poor, giving them money but nothing else is not helping. Read my post questor, all of it with out your red glasses.

 

I think any system which does not encourage and enable a person to be the best he can be will be left behind in the new global society

 

I think i already said that, now if we can just stop socializing the rich and powerful maybe we can get something done.

[questor]

DD, I would put more weight to your complaints if you had actually lived in places like the USSR, Cuba, Rwanda, China, India or actually any other countries of the world to see how you like their method of governance. It's hard to compare if you have no experience to compare to. Our main problem ,as I see it, is crooked politicians and other perps. Our punishments are not severe enough. If Bernie Madoff had pulled his scam in China, I doubt his head would still sit atop his body. It is not the system, it is the way people learn to game it. It's the same with religion or many other endeavors--they seem to work well until the crooks get involved. If you know a better system than capitalism, let's hear it. If you can have a better life in another country, which one is it?

[freeztar]

Good points questor.

 

As far as other countries to live in...

Norway sounds awesome! It's a diverse country with very little crime and the standard of living there is very high. Shoot, they pay you to take a vacation in the winter. :rolleyes:

If it wasn't for the climate there, I'd be happy to move to Norway. Same goes for Canada.

 

Though I have many qualms about how America is run, it is still one of the best (if not the best) country to live in for me. I don't think any of the Americans here would disagree with me. It's just the American way to rebel against (complain about) injustices. :)

[Thunderbird]

Good points questor.

 

As far as other countries to live in...

Norway sounds awesome! It's a diverse country with very little crime and the standard of living there is very high. Shoot, they pay you to take a vacation in the winter. :rolleyes:

If it wasn't for the climate there, I'd be happy to move to Norway. Same goes for Canada.

 

Though I have many qualms about how America is run, it is still one of the best (if not the best) country to live in for me. I don't think any of the Americans here would disagree with me. It's just the American way to rebel against (complain about) injustices. :)

New Zealand's quite nice. Some of the countries in northern Europe look good. uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that's all I got.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

questor-

 

And I'd give a rat's potato bout your persistence if you actually offered up more than "If you don't like it get out".

 

The fact is that "America" and America the reality are two very different things.

...there are the rights we are "guarantied" by various documents and those we actually have...there's our supposed prosperity and there is reality....etc.etc...

Which is the spirit and intention of the discussion in this thread

 

Either offer proof that it is not so (and America is everyhting it is claimed to be), proof that it is, or give it a rest....we all get the point.

[CraigD]

... the Rockefellers, Mellons, Carnegies, Gates and Buffets are not poor. Not all of them are conservative either, but I think they would agree that earning your own money is better than a handout. America does have a wealth disparity. How did the rich get rich? Figure that out and follow the same principles, maybe you'll get the same result.

I think there’s no great mystery about how the rich get rich in nearly any capitalist society, although the reason is likely nearly the opposite of what I suspect questor intends to hint at. One get rich by having one’s income not tightly correlated with ones labor.

 

My financial history is a case in point. The bulk of my wealth is in the form of a 401K retirement account and my house and its property. Although the money contributed to my 401K and my ability to buy my house (via a mortgage loan) came and comes from compensation for my labor, the increase of value of these investments required practically no effort from me. Were I to seek to be more wealthy, a reliable way to do so would be to minimize my expenses and maximize my investments through increasing my contribution to my 401K, investing in similar managed investment accounts, and buying rental properties. At some point, in such a course, I would do well to stop laboring – in the sense of creating things of value – altogether, freeing my time for watching, reacting to , and making investments.

 

In short, to become wealthy in a capitalist society, one must allow ones money to make a greater portion of ones money than the money one makes through by working.

Why do the poor remain poor? Look at what they do and how they act and the decisions they make, doesn't that give you the answer?

Accepting the premise that wealth is created by money making money, the poor remain poor because they either lack enough income in excess of expense money to invest, fail to understand the idea investment, have money and understand but chose not to invest, or have money, understanding, and will, but invest poorly. The failure to have enough income in excess of expense may be due to lack of income for uncontrollable reasons, such as physical or mental disabilities, dislike of working, or having too many expenses, such as for child care, gambling, or alcohol and illicit drugs.

 

Again drawing on my own history, I’m disinclined from concluding that being poor or rich is entirely due to one’s decisions. While I’m not what many would term rich, I’m not poor, but many of my critical decisions have been very like people who are poor. During childhood, my I was motivated by a desire for the approval of my parents, family, and friends. Because my parents were essentially intellectuals, my efforts to gain their approval were largely intellectual. Because of the neighborhood where my parents chose to live, my friends were similar to me, and I was able to gain their approval by being smart, athletic, and, on occasion, brutal, larcenous, ecclesiastical, and sexually promiscuous. After childhood, I was motivated to pursue interests learned during my childhood, such as storytelling, art, science, math, technology, various sorts of adventures, and sex. One of these interests is computer programming. Because this activity gained me entry into a new, large, respectable, well-compensated profession, I’m now respectable and moderately wealthy.

 

Given different circumstances – different parents, different childhood neighbors, etc – I’m fairly certain I would have a very different life.

 

Regarding this thread’s topic, American society and government is, I think, to be praised for its lack of thwarting, and in many cases active support, my pursuit of my interests. This quality is not, I think, unique to the US, but common in nations with stable constitutional republics and similar forms of government. My good fortune in being born American, rather than, say, Bangladeshi, is yet another formative factor in my life that was due to no decision of mine.

[questor]

I see nothing in your treatise that contradicts the ideas I have proposed over many posts. It should be evident that the rich get richer because they have money working for them, but first you have to make decisions that allow you to obtain a surplus to invest. In your own case, you had nothing in the way, no drug habits, no lack of education, no repeated unwanted pregnancies (I assume), and you probably didn't waste your best years and energies in web sites. You educated yourself, bought property and invested, That's it! Time and the tendency for things to increase in value does the rest. Pretty simple, and yet there are many on this site that say this formula won't work. Here is what doesn't work: failing to get an education, taking drugs, having a negative attitude, being lazy, not taking responsibility for your own life.

[Moontanman]

I see nothing in your treatise that contradicts the ideas I have proposed over many posts. It should be evident that the rich get richer because they have money working for them, but first you have to make decisions that allow you to obtain a surplus to invest. In your own case, you had nothing in the way, no drug habits, no lack of education, no repeated unwanted pregnancies (I assume), and you probably didn't waste your best years and energies in web sites. You educated yourself, bought property and invested, That's it! Time and the tendency for things to increase in value does the rest. Pretty simple, and yet there are many on this site that say this formula won't work. Here is what doesn't work: failing to get an education, taking drugs, having a negative attitude, being lazy, not taking responsibility for your own life.

 

 

I have to admit what you say is true, failing to do the things you suggest will indeed result in poverty, sometimes things beyond your control can do so as well. some people simply live charmed lives others have real problems that result from the way they are raised. Your world view can indeed be a huge influence in how your life works out. Often you get this world view from your parents and from your community. I think the real question is how do you help people that are already in poverty, born into poverty see the way out? I know for a fact that being born into poverty doesn't mean you are doomed to stay there but so few seem to make it out I doubt it's as easy as you seem to make it sound. You parents, your community and your culture have more to do with your poverty level than anything else. You can be poor and still instill a sense of work ethic into your children but to do this you usually have to have the work ethic your self. If you don't have it or have had it destroyed by years of struggle that never works out then it is difficult to instill it into your children. I think that in some ways it's like child abuse, it's passed down from generation to generation. Poverty breeds poverty, the pattern must be broken, how do you do this?

[questor]

We are not all equal. Whoever said that or thinks that needs a shot of reality. There are things we can change and things we can't change. We can't change parents, skin color or incidence of birth. We can't change our IQ or genetic code. We can only work within the framework nature gave us. That ability and the freedom to use it dictates your success in your life. We have freedom to succeed or to fail in America. Yes, some people are lucky, some are standing in the right place when opportunity walks by, but the GREAT majority of successful people become that way following the same steps that have yielded success for centuries. This is a no-brainer. Read the book Millionaire Next Door. Some people never get what they want from life, but if they are honest, they will have to look at the choices they made and the way they lived their lives AND USED THEIR TIME. We all have the same number of hours in a day. Of course there are many special needs people who are compomised in some way, but the majority of people have earned the right to be exactly where they are.

[HydrogenBond]

America is sort of a paradox. It has the most diversity of any country, since it is a melting pot of all cultures. But at the same time, we are told we are all created equal. This hints at homogeneity or commonality within the diversity. Then we are also told one should be proud of their ethnic or unique diversity which reinforces how everyone is different. On the one hand, we are told get into the melting pot to make american soup and we are also told to keep the ingredients separate. Free enterprise creates diversity down to individual efforts, whereas socialist policy tries to make everyone the same.

 

What we have is like two poles of a magnet. Almost everyone is in the middle sort of pulled both ways at the same time. We want to all get along, but we also want to be treated as unique. There is a creative flux of constant tinkering. In America you can find almost anything in the middle somewhere in America, but you will not find too much steady state, everywhere.