petrushkagoogol Posted March 16, 2017 Report Share Posted March 16, 2017 Can mental states be represented by 2D geometry ? Here is an attempt to do so - * Meditation - a point * Autism - a straight line * Anxiety - a straight line above origin occasionally going below origin and returning back * Depression - a straight line above origin going below origin with a high negative slope and staying there * Bipolar disorder - a sinusoidal wave * ADHD - a sinusoidal wave with high amplitude and high frequency * Day dreaming - a straight line with imaginary co-ordinates Do you agree ? :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exchemist Posted March 16, 2017 Report Share Posted March 16, 2017 Can mental states be represented by 2D geometry ? Here is an attempt to do so - * Meditation - a point* Autism - a straight line* Anxiety - a straight line above origin occasionally going below origin and returning back* Depression - a straight line above origin going below origin with a high negative slope and staying there* Bipolar disorder - a sinusoidal wave* ADHD - a sinusoidal wave with high amplitude and high frequency* Day dreaming - a straight line with imaginary co-ordinates Do you agree ? :P I'm waiting for your thread on kipper paste. I'm sure it could be really interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMJones0424 Posted March 17, 2017 Report Share Posted March 17, 2017 Can mental states be represented by 2D geometry? Sure, you've just demonstrated that some can. What you haven't demonstrated is the utility of your representation. Why did you pick the "mental states" you did and why did you represent them as you did mathematically? Does your representation provide some predictive power that one could use to test for accuracy? I do not understand what you are trying to convey, because it seems to me that you arbitrarily chose "mental states" and arbitrarily assigned mathematical representations to them. A straight line is (roughly) defined in Eucildean geometry as a string of points that connect two points and extend on to infinity in either direction with the same slope. How is it therefore useful to claim that meditation can be represented by a point and that autism can be represented by a line? petrushkagoogol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petrushkagoogol Posted March 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2017 Can mental states be represented by 2D geometry? Sure, you've just demonstrated that some can. What you haven't demonstrated is the utility of your representation. Why did you pick the "mental states" you did and why did you represent them as you did mathematically? Does your representation provide some predictive power that one could use to test for accuracy? I do not understand what you are trying to convey, because it seems to me that you arbitrarily chose "mental states" and arbitrarily assigned mathematical representations to them. A straight line is (roughly) defined in Eucildean geometry as a string of points that connect two points and extend on to infinity in either direction with the same slope. How is it therefore useful to claim that meditation can be represented by a point and that autism can be represented by a line? By assigned weights to each type of behavior and plotting these numbers on a graph we can - Resolve composite states to their components Find out the dominant trait This could lead to more well targeted counselling and medication .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMJones0424 Posted March 17, 2017 Report Share Posted March 17, 2017 OK, but you didn't answer my question. How is it that you came to describe meditation as a point and autism as a line? Why not the other way around? Why not anxiety as a point and day-dreaming as a line? It still appears to me that you have arbitrarily selected specific mental states and you have arbitrarily assigned mathematical identities to those states. You have not demonstrated the utility of your designations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petrushkagoogol Posted March 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2017 OK, but you didn't answer my question. How is it that you came to describe meditation as a point and autism as a line? Why not the other way around? Why not anxiety as a point and day-dreaming as a line? It still appears to me that you have arbitrarily selected specific mental states and you have arbitrarily assigned mathematical identities to those states. You have not demonstrated the utility of your designations. The Key here is DEGREES OF FREEDOM. Using this as the benchmark - A Meditative mind has single undiluted focus with no degrees of freedom.An autistic mind could be represented by the idiot savant or a person with high functioning autism (Asperger's Syndrome), who is proficient in only one activity and socially very obtuse. Hence the first is represented by a point, the latter a straight line.The first has zero degrees of freedom, the latter one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMJones0424 Posted March 17, 2017 Report Share Posted March 17, 2017 (edited) Well, this is certainly new information that would have been valuable in your opening post. The key, as you claim, is degrees of freedom. Let's assume that the meditative mind is equivalent to a point because it exists in no dimensions and has therefore no degree of freedom. Why then is autism indicative of a line with only one degree of freedom? What one degree does an autistic mind possess that a meditative mind does not? Why couldn't we model the meditative mind as a point and the anxious mind and the indifferent mind as being regions along a line that intersect that point on either side? To put it another way, I still do not understand the nomenclature you are using to assign what appears to me to be arbitrary "mental states" to what appears to me to be arbitrary mathematical concepts. What I would like is some evidence that your classification is useful. How do you propose I test your hypothesis? Edited March 17, 2017 by JMJones0424 petrushkagoogol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petrushkagoogol Posted March 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2017 (edited) Well, this is certainly new information that would have been valuable in your opening post. The key, as you claim, is degrees of freedom. Let's assume that the meditative mind is equivalent to a point because it exists in no dimensions and has therefore no degree of freedom. Why then is autism indicative of a line with only one degree of freedom? What one degree does an autistic mind possess that a meditative mind does not? Why couldn't we model the meditative mind as a point and the anxious mind and the indifferent mind as being regions along a line that intersect that point on either side? To put it another way, I still do not understand the nomenclature you are using to assign what appears to me to be arbitrary "mental states" to what appears to me to be arbitrary mathematical concepts. What I would like is some evidence that your classification is useful. How do you propose I test your hypothesis? As an extension to my earlier post - Plot of time (X-axis) vs confidence level (positivism) (Y-axis) * Meditation - point at origin (0,0) indicating no thought* Autism - here I would depict the scenario as a line with almost constant slope with very low x coordinate, as autistic people are usually passionate about their work * Anxiety - compulsion for at least some negative thoughts i.e. some negative y coords* Depression - compulsion for several negative thoughts i.e. negative y coords for a prolonged period of time* Bipolar disorder - alternating +ve and -ve confidence level (+ve and -ve y coords)* ADHD - alternating +ve and -ve confidence level with high frequency* Day dreaming - plot of thoughts on imaginary axis (negativity does not apply) i.e. at no point of time does y coordinate go below zero Hope this helps ! Edited March 17, 2017 by petrushkagoogol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petrushkagoogol Posted March 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 As an extension to my earlier post - Plot of time (X-axis) vs confidence level (positivism) (Y-axis) * Meditation - point at origin (0,0) indicating no thought* Autism - here I would depict the scenario as a line with almost constant slope with very low x coordinate, as autistic people are usually passionate about their work * Anxiety - compulsion for at least some negative thoughts i.e. some negative y coords* Depression - compulsion for several negative thoughts i.e. negative y coords for a prolonged period of time* Bipolar disorder - alternating +ve and -ve confidence level (+ve and -ve y coords)* ADHD - alternating +ve and -ve confidence level with high frequency* Day dreaming - plot of thoughts on imaginary axis (negativity does not apply) i.e. at no point of time does y coordinate go below zero Hope this helps ! Just extending the concept... Points on the graph could be based on a 24 hrs sample size, with the abcissa being the frequency of the mental state in question eg) feeling anxious for 3 hours a day could have an x coordinate of 3 and the ordinate based on the relevant mental state and it's intensity eg) anxiety could have a value of y coordinate as -3 and depression, which is more severe in it's negativity -5. These numbers could be generated through a questionaire like - Q. How many hours in the day do you experience equanimity ? (2,0)Q. How many hours do you experience intrusive thoughts ? (4,-3)Q. How many hours do you experience the blues ? (6,-5) Join all the points and generate a graph which can then be analyzed. There could be a computer program using a charting tool to do this, and periodic evaluations could be done so as to determine patient history and symptoms of mental illness. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petrushkagoogol Posted March 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2017 Can mental states be represented by 2D geometry? Sure, you've just demonstrated that some can. What you haven't demonstrated is the utility of your representation. Why did you pick the "mental states" you did and why did you represent them as you did mathematically? Does your representation provide some predictive power that one could use to test for accuracy? I do not understand what you are trying to convey, because it seems to me that you arbitrarily chose "mental states" and arbitrarily assigned mathematical representations to them. A straight line is (roughly) defined in Eucildean geometry as a string of points that connect two points and extend on to infinity in either direction with the same slope. How is it therefore useful to claim that meditation can be represented by a point and that autism can be represented by a line? By assigned weights to each type of behavior and plotting these numbers on a graph we can - Resolve composite states to their components Find out the dominant trait This could lead to more well targeted counselling and medication .... OK, but you didn't answer my question. How is it that you came to describe meditation as a point and autism as a line? Why not the other way around? Why not anxiety as a point and day-dreaming as a line? It still appears to me that you have arbitrarily selected specific mental states and you have arbitrarily assigned mathematical identities to those states. You have not demonstrated the utility of your designations. As an extension to my earlier post - Plot of time (X-axis) vs confidence level (positivism) (Y-axis) * Meditation - point at origin (0,0) indicating no thought* Autism - here I would depict the scenario as a line with almost constant slope with very low x coordinate, as autistic people are usually passionate about their work * Anxiety - compulsion for at least some negative thoughts i.e. some negative y coords* Depression - compulsion for several negative thoughts i.e. negative y coords for a prolonged period of time* Bipolar disorder - alternating +ve and -ve confidence level (+ve and -ve y coords)* ADHD - alternating +ve and -ve confidence level with high frequency* Day dreaming - plot of thoughts on imaginary axis (negativity does not apply) i.e. at no point of time does y coordinate go below zero Hope this helps ! Just extending the concept... Points on the graph could be based on a 24 hrs sample size, with the abcissa being the frequency of the mental state in question eg) feeling anxious for 3 hours a day could have an x coordinate of 3 and the ordinate based on the relevant mental state and it's intensity eg) anxiety could have a value of y coordinate as -3 and depression, which is more severe in it's negativity -5. These numbers could be generated through a questionaire like - Q. How many hours in the day do you experience equanimity ? (2,0)Q. How many hours do you experience intrusive thoughts ? (4,-3)Q. How many hours do you experience the blues ? (6,-5) Join all the points and generate a graph which can then be analyzed. There could be a computer program using a charting tool to do this, and periodic evaluations could be done so as to determine patient history and symptoms of mental illness. Hope this helps. FYI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMJones0424 Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 I think I'm beginning to understand you now. Unfortunately, I haven't the background necessary to critique you further. I can understand bi-polar as analogous to a sine wave between mania and depression. I still don't necessarily agree with all of your assignments of mental states to 2D plots, but frankly, I don't really have any background in mental health. You could try devising some questionnaire to give to random individuals and compare your results to the opinions of their psychiatrist's, but I suspect this might be difficult. Another option would be to require self-reporting of diagnoses, but studies that rely on self-reporting are rather untrustworthy. Maybe someone with knowledge in this field can give better insight as to why or if your conceptual model is useful. petrushkagoogol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanBreeze Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 Can mental states be represented by 2D geometry ? Yes, and it is already being done; known as mood monitoring. Here is an attempt to do so - * Meditation - a point* Autism - a straight line* Anxiety - a straight line above origin occasionally going below origin and returning back* Depression - a straight line above origin going below origin with a high negative slope and staying there* Bipolar disorder - a sinusoidal wave* ADHD - a sinusoidal wave with high amplitude and high frequency* Day dreaming - a straight line with imaginary co-ordinates Do you agree ? :P I can't comment on the validity of your classifications. Here is an example of how other people go about it petrushkagoogol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMJones0424 Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 (edited) Thanks for your input OceanBreeze. I did a google image search for the image you provided and came up with this: long string of nonsense but it's useful and will probably disclose way more information about me than I would like This seems to be a bipolar mood chart, and with my limited and laymen's knowledge, I don't find anything particularly wrong with it other than the fact that it seems to track two people on the same chart. Likewise, there is not a section for Lithium level, and there are some drugs that I'd expect to see that are missing, but my knowledge, limited as it is, may easily be dated. In the future, please provide a source for images that you post that aren't your own. Also, do you have any insight in to the other conditions proposed by the OP, such as anxiety, autism, ADHD, meditation, and daydreaming? Edited March 19, 2017 by JMJones0424 petrushkagoogol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanBreeze Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 In the future, please provide a source for images that you post that aren't your own. Just follow the first link I gave for mood monitoring. Also, do you have any insight in to the other conditions proposed by the OP, such as anxiety, autism, ADHD, meditation, and daydreaming? No, not my field, although I am familiar with cognitive performance evaluations aboard ship, including mood monitoring; for submariners in particular but is useful also for surface vessels on long cruises (over 60 days) petrushkagoogol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMJones0424 Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 ACK! I'm sorry. petrushkagoogol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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