bumab Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 IMO it is a metaphor used by the church to illustrate that to seek knowledge is wrong and allowed the church to exert its power. That's a little cynical, especially in light of the fact that the story had been around long before the Christian church existed to exert that control :hihi: I assume you are talking religon in general, Fish, and the religious institutions which have a tendancy to do just that. Sadly, it is often an apt metaphor for that abuse. I certainly wouldn't argue with that. Transgretions by the church are indefensible. However, that's obviously not the intended purpose of that piece of text- it's obvious and dangerous to the people in charge, why put it in? I personally prefer the free will metaphor- it signifies our independence from the natural world (free will) and all the responsibilities of right and wrong which come along with that. Many see free will as a curse- it allows us to be evil (in a sense, it creates good and evil by creating the distinction). In any case, we fail pretty regularly in our ability to choose right over wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumab Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 BTW, this really should move to the religous forum when it comes around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumab Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 Hey, 500! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niviene Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 Hey, 500! Hey, congratulations! :hihi: And, I agree... maybe I'll poke around in another thread for this stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAKER Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 YEAH, hAPPY 500 bUMAB! :hihi: iT COULDN'T HAPPEN TO A NICER GUY! - UNLESS OF COURSE IT HAPPENED TO ONE OF THE OTHER NICE PEOPLE AROUND HERE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumab Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 thanks beaker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ez_stuff Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 can anyone give me any evidence against creation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queso Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 can anyone give me any evidence against creation? www-w-w-w-w-what? AGAINST creation??? is that what you are really asking..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niviene Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 can anyone give me any evidence against creation? No one can give you absolute evidence for or against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niviene Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 You don't have to believe anything. You should find out what is real. Belief is acceptance of hearsay. Everything you need to know is layed out in all aspects of scientific thought. You can choose to learn about many other subjects -- art, music, philosophy, sports, politics, etc... but they are not the key ingredients to your livelihood. Religion is a waste of time and effort. Religion and science are not reconcilable and people who try to mix them as if they were, end up confused. You're right... and I don't need to live, either. My search, as I've explained, is exactly that - to find out what is real. There isn't much in science that suggests what is spiritually "real" or not. Since there is no way to measure this, just as I don't feel there is any way to measure love, I seek the advice of someone knowledgeable on the topic; however, I only want to use this advice and apply it to what I believe to be the factual scientific findings to see if I can find a suitable reason for so many inconsistencies with what I have been taught.. because I would like to believe in something, just like I like being in love. It's not easy to equate these things - I have nothing to demonstrate my "love" other than my actions - it's just something that I feel that makes me feel good. Some will give me chemical this and phsychological that, but nobody can prove that in my body in a way that will reflect the depth of my love. Before I was in love, I knew it was something I wanted, even though I was still alive and Okay without it. It was just something I thought about; would I be able to feel that way? would it fulfill what it was I was "looking" for, or "missing" in my life? That's how I feel about religion. I'm living... I'm doing ok... but I feel like I would like to believe in something - to have the same spiritual convictions as others do, and to be able to discuss those things to others without fear of being held outside of the religion of others, I suppose. There might not be a religion that I fit right into - but there are a lot of things I do not know about religion, and different religions interpret different parts of themselves differently, therefore I question and question and question and look for people who are willing to speak candidly with me about these questions. I feel that any person who can do that with their own religion is a real follower of that religion and not afraid to face any question I have - even if there simply is no answer - that it won't shake their faith. It's just that I have questions, and I'm doing research, which, I was taught, is exactly what science is. I don't need to believe in anything, but I wake up every day, and I can't prove that I really even exist, so how can I define anything that I really need? I don't think religion is at all a waste of time or effort; neither do I think that science is. I can see both sides of the issue, and that's why I look to both sides for my answers. I would rather be "confused" and aware than not-confused and blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 can anyone give me any evidence against creation?Creation in general? No, not really. Of course, the utter and complete lack of evidence in support of any creator makes it really, really unnecessary and difficult to honestly believe there has to be one. Now, what creationism do you believe in, if any, and what observations is it based upon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biochemist Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 ... the utter and complete lack of evidence in support of any creator makes it really, really unnecessary and difficult to honestly believe there has to be one...Interesting faith position. This is equivalent to stating "the complete lack of evidence denying the existence of any creator makes it really, really unnecessary and difficult to honestly believe there is not one". The only valid position (within the confines of the scientific method) would be that we do not know whether or not there is a God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeleMad Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 The only valid position (within the confines of the scientific method) would be that we do not know whether or not there is a God. Uhm, what about logical positivism (I believe I got that term right)? Scientists use it to rule out silly claims such as, "There's a magical pink unicorn up here on stage with me ... now, you can't see it, you can't smell it, you can't touch it, you can't hear it, it doesn't give off heat, it doesn't have weight, it doesn't interact with matter, and so on ... you just have to believe me that it's there". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokinjoe9 Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Scientists use it to rule out silly claims such as, "There's a magical pink unicorn up here on stage with me ... now, you can't see it, you can't smell it, you can't touch it, you can't hear it, it doesn't give off heat, it doesn't have weight, it doesn't interact with matter, and so on ... you just have to believe me that it's there". Maybe, just maybe there is a pink unicorn on stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAKER Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 You're right... and I don't need to live, either. My search, as I've explained, is exactly that - to find out what is real...I would like to believe in something - to have the same spiritual convictions as others do, and to be able to discuss those things to others without fear...I don't think religion is at all a waste of time or effort; neither do I think that science is. I can see both sides of the issue, and that's why I look to both sides for my answers. I would rather be "confused" and aware than not-confused and blind.You are like the person who looks all over for their glasses, when all the time they are on your head. The bible says "the Word is near you - even in your mind and in your heart, so you can do it". It also says (and this is one of my favorite verses) Jesus speaking: "No man can come to me exept those who have heard and learned from the Father". There is a learning process going on (for us all) your whole life long; untill you have enough understanding and maturity to recognize your need for a Savior. From there you either move closer or farther away. If a person has not already "...learned from the Father..." the lessons of life that teach the insanity of rejecting God, they are incapable of making the right choice. You are ready to parrachute out of the plane; you just want to be confident that the person who packed the chute knew what they were doing. Just remember - after all is said and done - "Faith is the substance of things unseen".:hihi: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Maybe, just maybe there is a pink unicorn on stage?What's the point of making such a claim if it can't be tested? It's an unnecessary claim in that case, and violating the Ockham's razor. There's no point in claiming that such things exist if there's no need for it, no support, no evidence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeleMad Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Maybe, just maybe there is a pink unicorn on stage? And maybe, just maybe this pink unicorn is what ACTUALLY pushes electrons through wires when we toggle switches, giving the illusion of electrical repulsion/attraction; or maybe, just maybe this pink unicorn pushes back on things when they try to move across surfaces and there really is no such thing as friction. Gee, I guess science can't claim to actually know how electricity or motion work. PS: About your signature. It's a bit of a stretch from Chromatic to Chromosomes. Chromatin is much closer to Chromatic ... just one letter difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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