Ganoderma Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 In the beginning stages of getting the farm built and have decided to turn 1/4-1/2 into an experimental multi crop section. the goal is to use all space available for food plants and get as high yields without additional chemicals. I have been running an experimental bed for 3 years which is packed with plants and uses a tera pretta style soil. lots of charcoal and some brick/broken pottery. this bed i just use all the dead plants/leaves and other organic waste (including caterpillars/snails that get the hammer :hyper:) and it has been good, but moderate yields of things like pepper, tomato and such. so i am starting with a flat piece of hard crappy dirt. i am planning on bringing in dead vegetation (lots around after this recent typhoon!) and taking the wood to make charcoal and the rest to make compost/loam. Question is what are some good ways to really *FEED* plants via organic. i know its a slower process, but surely there are ways if planned ahead and just let it run as a constant cycle...? i also do the "throw it on the surface" technique. leaves and such just get thrown all over the ground, it has been a very effective "slow release" fertilizer the last 3 years, but i need a boost. any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelangelica Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 [quote name=Ganoderma;276268 so i am starting with a flat piece of hard crappy dirt. i am planning on bringing in dead vegetation (lots around after this recent typhoon!) and taking the wood to make charcoal and the rest to make compost/loam. Question is what are some good ways to really *FEED* plants via organic. i know its a slower process' date=' but surely there are ways if planned ahead and just let it run as a constant cycle...? i also do the "throw it on the surface" technique. leaves and such just get thrown all over the ground, it has been a very effective "slow release" fertilizer the last 3 years, but i need a boost. any thoughts?[/quote]Just about anything organic will help soil microbiology.You could cheat and jump start things with a lot of sugar or molasses. Have you thought of using a little fine Zeolite or similar, instead of (or as well as) clay shards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maikeru Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 In the beginning stages of getting the farm built and have decided to turn 1/4-1/2 into an experimental multi crop section. the goal is to use all space available for food plants and get as high yields without additional chemicals. I have been running an experimental bed for 3 years which is packed with plants and uses a tera pretta style soil. lots of charcoal and some brick/broken pottery. this bed i just use all the dead plants/leaves and other organic waste (including caterpillars/snails that get the hammer :rolleyes:) and it has been good, but moderate yields of things like pepper, tomato and such. so i am starting with a flat piece of hard crappy dirt. i am planning on bringing in dead vegetation (lots around after this recent typhoon!) and taking the wood to make charcoal and the rest to make compost/loam. Question is what are some good ways to really *FEED* plants via organic. i know its a slower process, but surely there are ways if planned ahead and just let it run as a constant cycle...? i also do the "throw it on the surface" technique. leaves and such just get thrown all over the ground, it has been a very effective "slow release" fertilizer the last 3 years, but i need a boost. any thoughts? Used coffee grounds, tea leaves, fish bones/waste, bones, etc. Also are you running red worms or any worms in your mix? Their castings contain chemicals like auxin and more concentrated, easily absorbed minerals and elements for plants that should boost growth. Get it closer to what the original Amazonians were doing. :phones: The biochar should help any rotting plant material disappear more quickly via increased fungual and bacterial activity, and perhaps become humus, and you'll see the effect on your plants. I found that biochar can take a while to mature, and it has strange properties that seem to vary with what you put in it or the plants growing in it. It seems to increase in fertility over time as it matures and it is "alive" in a certain sense, more so as the soil microbes colonize, change, and respond to it, and other soil denizens move in. I've been experimenting with my garden and newer potting soil mix that has mostly a clay/sandy topsoil that I bought for really cheap, mixed with powdered charcoal, some bark, coffee grounds, etc. that wasn't responding well. The soil mix just wasn't alive and my garden started suffering, so I gave it worm castings and a compost tea that I've started brewing and inoculated with soil microbes. The castings + compost tea seem to have done the trick, and now I can see green scum (cyanobacteria) growing on top of gradually darkening soil, which used to be light gray and lifeless a few months ago. You could also try growing cyanobacteria in a jar of water and using that to repeatedly inoculate your garden. Several types of cyanobacteria have the ability to fix nitrogen from the air, secrete organic material into the soil, and themselves provide food and nutrients to the soil and plants when they die. Ganoderma 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelangelica Posted September 5, 2009 Report Share Posted September 5, 2009 The soil mix just wasn't alive and my garden started suffering, so I gave it worm castings and a compost tea that I've started brewing and inoculated with soil microbes. The castings + compost tea seem to have done the trick, and now I can see green scum (cyanobacteria) growing on top of gradually darkening soil, which used to be light gray and lifeless a few months ago. You could also try growing cyanobacteria in a jar of water and using that to repeatedly inoculate your garden. Several types of cyanobacteria have the ability to fix nitrogen from the air, secrete organic material into the soil, and themselves provide food and nutrients to the soil and plants when they die.Yes Biochar just helps the soil grow (soil =some assorted little rocks + a lot of 'wee beasties"), but you need the bacteria fungi etc, They only come when there is some food for them to eat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getting A Life Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 Compost teas! Makeiru is onto it. Google 'soil food web' and check it out. You can replace soil biology for pennies but it requires knowledge, more than I can be bothered to type right now. A wee bit of worm castings seaweed and molasses goes a long way if it's brewed correctly. Also, make sure you are not charring any plants classified as hyperaccumulators. Char is good when it's not toxic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maikeru Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 Compost teas! Makeiru is onto it. Google 'soil food web' and check it out. You can replace soil biology for pennies but it requires knowledge, more than I can be bothered to type right now. A wee bit of worm castings seaweed and molasses goes a long way if it's brewed correctly. Also, make sure you are not charring any plants classified as hyperaccumulators. Char is good when it's not toxic... It's true. Molasses and seaweed are excellent fertilizers and microbial feedstocks. Worm poo is just chock-full of beneficial microbes and worms help to aerate and limit pathogens in the soil. One more thing is that it makes gardening all that much easier when the plants take care of themselves and are more resilient. The plants I've inoculated with compost tea and worm castings seem able to tolerate spider mites or fight them off. I'm impressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemit Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 Maikeru's solution sounds a lot like my guinea pig bedding and coffee grounds garden that has been pretty remarkable. I've been amazed at how many worms there are in the bedding-grounds confection just a month after I put it out. Since Maikeru and I are both at high altitude, I wonder if the soil pH might be significant. My guinea pigs are curious about this too. --lemit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganoderma Posted September 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 good stuff! i have tried teas with good results also, but using ingredients like molasses is not something i hope to depend on as it is more of a refined product i need to buy. i have wondered about using sugar cane leaves/stems as a substitute though. our neighbor is a sugar cane farmer and once they squeeze the sugary juices out they use the left over as a mulch in their gardens, with pretty decent results i might add! you guys have any ideas on compost teas on a large scale? i used my hotplate and pot, but something larger, thinking many gallons at a time, would be ideal...what is an efficient way of poo collection, on a large scale, without spending all weekend finger up worm doo doo? i was thinking of some kind of screened bins, but never really followed through with a good system all my gardens, minus pots, are in ground except one raised experiment bed with is on concrete. all are loaded with whatever naturally occurring worms we have...i have seen 4 species, some more numerous than others. the results of these gardens are decent, like mentioned above if the plants are fighting off invasions on their own, they are at least happy. my problem is that although its good enough for grandmas rose garden, its not going to compete on a production scale (for me mostly fruit trees), which is where i need the intense part. teas certainly seem like a great method, work good, but also lots of work (i think). i wonder if there is some kind of cool fermentation type tank like you see in pig farms for example where tehy let teh poop sit in big pools and do their stuff to break down (nasty!). could this theoretically work with plant composting? one last thought before i find myself rambling all through the night again.... what about a large compost bin. think a 10x10x5' high concrete cube open at the top. on the bottom about say 6-12" from the concrete floor is a screened so larger particles cannot fall through, lets say 1/2" holes for example. let the compost sit and do its thing for XX months. now i am thinking having a hole in the bottom hooked up to a hose, pour water through the top and let it go down to the bottom and collect small particles, nutrition?, and go through the house, and voila a VERY lazy compost tea. obviously not like a tea, but similar.....could anyone see drawbacks to this idea? i will likely have irrigation pipes for the farm, so hooking this compost box up to that would be super easy, and regular little effort. just keep throwing thing into the top and letting them go about their business....stupid? possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getting A Life Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 I got to get to school so briefly... A worm farm of several buckets is a very easy DIY solution. You can find designs for these all over the web. A stacking system so the worms migrate up to the next layer leaving relatively worm free castings behind. Once the castings are produced you use them for the teas. 5 gallons does 1/4 acre and you only need a cup of worm castings, 25 ml of molasses and 25 ml of liquid seaweed to make 5 gallons of great tea. (adequate air is a must!) Mulch is nearly always good. if you can get some sugar cane mulch by all means test it on some of your soil. My compacted hardpan yellow clay took only compost and teas to convert to soil. It's not great (yet) but parts of it are really good already (2nd years spring season now it is brown dirt not yellow clay). Compost heaps are great, turning the hose on them kills biology with the chloramine/chlorine. Good compost requires temperature monitoring and turning, but is worth it as all the pathogens and weed seeds get destroyed in the heating. Good compost requires a bit of reading, then do it once and it all becomes clearer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelangelica Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 I just joined a Yahoo list serve group on Compost Teas! (There are a lot of nutters in cyberspace! ) Have a look, also, at the posts I made to day in Q&A on watering plants with soda (CO2 enriched water). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essay Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 good stuff! i have tried teas with good results also, but using ingredients like molasses is not something i hope to depend on as it is more of a refined product i need to buy. i have wondered about using sugar cane leaves/stems as a substitute though. our neighbor is a sugar cane farmer and once they squeeze the sugary juices out they use the left over as a mulch in their gardens, with pretty decent results i might add! you guys have any ideas on compost teas on a large scale? i used my hotplate and pot, but something larger, thinking many gallons at a time, would be ideal...what is an efficient way of poo collection, on a large scale, without spending all weekend finger up worm doo doo? i was thinking of some kind of screened bins, but never really followed through with a good system :( all my gardens, minus pots, are in ground except one raised experiment bed with is on concrete. all are loaded with whatever naturally occurring worms we have...i have seen 4 species, some more numerous than others. the results of these gardens are decent, like mentioned above if the plants are fighting off invasions on their own, they are at least happy. my problem is that although its good enough for grandmas rose garden, its not going to compete on a production scale (for me mostly fruit trees), which is where i need the intense part. teas certainly seem like a great method, work good, but also lots of work (i think). i wonder if there is some kind of cool fermentation type tank like you see in pig farms for example where tehy let teh poop sit in big pools and do their stuff to break down (nasty!). could this theoretically work with plant composting? one last thought before i find myself rambling all through the night again.... what about a large compost bin. think a 10x10x5' high concrete cube open at the top. on the bottom about say 6-12" from the concrete floor is a screened so larger particles cannot fall through, lets say 1/2" holes for example. let the compost sit and do its thing for XX months. now i am thinking having a hole in the bottom hooked up to a hose, pour water through the top and let it go down to the bottom and collect small particles, nutrition?, and go through the house, and voila a VERY lazy compost tea. obviously not like a tea, but similar.....could anyone see drawbacks to this idea? i will likely have irrigation pipes for the farm, so hooking this compost box up to that would be super easy, and regular little effort. just keep throwing thing into the top and letting them go about their business....stupid? possible? If you're doing fruit trees, you might want to study fungal/soil enhancement techniques.Most of this stuff (worms/teas/sugars) is to enhance microbial development. I'm just getting into the front of this book [google the contents for an inspirational trip] and noticed some headings about trees (and perennials) preferring fungal dominated soils, whereas annuals prefer bacterially dominated soils. Interesting distinction that I don't know much about--yet.The book is Teaming with Microbes:Amazon.com: Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web (9780881927771): Jeff Lowenfels, Wayne Lewis: Books http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microbes-Gardeners-Guide-Soil/dp/0881927775...now on my Kindle!=== That's a neat idea about washing the compost. You should ask the Worm-Man about that one. See:Garbage Busters Home He has a general bent against teas, but should still be able to give you some insight about hybridizing a composting and irrigation system.He's great with compost bins/techniques/tricks. He's got a 10x10x10-foot cube that he just tumbles occasionally, somehow. Certainly his "worm herding" techniques should save your hands (and some time).=== I'm learning about fine-tuning biochars, to enhance different soils, by choosing different feedstocks and by processing at different temperatures (and for differing retention times). In general low-temp/short-duration-processing biochars will be acidic, and high temp/longer processing will produce biochars that have a liming effect.I wonder if one or the other favors fungal over bacterial also....=== ...alsoI wonder if growing plants organically (so the mycorrhizal connection becomes well-established) is what enables the plants to fight off infections/insect attacks. I think that would make sense on several levels.=== Let me know if you can't find the worm-herding techniques!Enjoy the wonder.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelangelica Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 === I'm learning about fine-tuning biochars, to enhance different soils, by choosing different feedstocks and by processing at different temperatures (and for differing retention times). In general low-temp/short-duration-processing biochars will be acidic, and high temp/longer processing will produce biochars that have a liming effect.I wonder if one or the other favors fungal over bacterial also....=== .Great observation, thanks; do you mind if I throw it to the biochar Listserv to see their reaction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganoderma Posted September 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 wow that is very nice to know that barely any molasses is needed, relative to other ingredients. you say 5 gallons per 1/4 acre. seems a little light, do you apply this fairly often? Essay, that book does look interesting, i have it ordered and on the way soon. it is interesting that "fruits & vegetables" would like bacteria over fungi or other way around....some families have both fruit n veg, wonder if it is a growth style over a taxonomic relation. guess i cant really guess much til i read the book though ;) worman seems liek a real knowledgable feller. i am looking through his site, some neat info. but i dont see his worm herding technique. i used to have a flat slab of concrete i tried composting on. i made a long mound, like a sausage of crap. let the worms do their bit for a month (covered with a tarp to keep light out and moisture in). once it was mostly chewed through i added food to only one side and the sausage would in a way roll towards the food and leave worm poop behind. it was neat to see, had some flaws that im sure others have worked through, but it worked nicely. the disadvantage was the space it took to do, so i stopped. as it turns out, the farm next to ours, a retired coconut farm, is changing crops and they are cutting the coco down, large ones. i am asking if they want to jsut dump the logs on my land and i can find a use for them. i was thinking growing some Reishi mushrooms as they grow on coconut well, but i am also totally into soil improvement if someone thinks of something. one thought was grow the mushrooms, then let the microrganisms, beetle larva, worms and whatever else want a feed in and use the final result as a real rich "loamy mulch" type thing. anyone tried similar things? the trees are about 60cm+ diameter so not little or fast to break down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essay Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 Great observation, thanks; do you mind if I throw it to the biochar Listserv to see their reaction? About the acid/base relations in biochar, I tried to find a citation but I guess I made that up from reading about the process of pyrolysis at different temperatures....You get a lot more functional groups (carboxyls, lactones, phenols, amines, pyranones, etc.) attached to the carbon lattice of biochar pores for chars created in lower temp/shorter heating time. And with higher temps and longer processing time you get a more pure carbon lattice. Of course this all is relative to the starting feedstock and its composition and physical properties. My fairly unjustifiable leap in logic was to assume most of those functional groups would be acidic. They are both acidic and basic. I'm speculating about the bases being more easily oxidized, cross-reacting, or otherwise being more easily neutralized than the acids. I know the Oxygen content of these functional groups is related to lower pH and higher CEC, which diminishes with higher temps and longer processing times as the oxygen-containing functional groups are volatilized and driven off. In the book Biochar for Environmental Management: Science and Technology, it says: "Biochar with low O functional group contents show basic surface properties and anion exchange behaviour." -(p.122, Lehmann 2009) also....At lower temps the organic sulfurs convert to acidic sulfates, but at higher temps these are lost or reduced to sulfides and other less soluble or less biologically-available forms of sulfur. -(p.78, Lehmann 2009) So on balance I'd think lower temps would produce more acidic biochars (relative to a given starting material/feedstock).It's at those lower temperatures that you drive off the "wood vinegar," so until it gets hot enough (or long enough) to drive off all the pyroligneous acids (wood vinegar), I'd think it would be an acidic char--but that's just for wood. BUT...The variation in these factors (pH, CEC) can be more strongly affected by the different feedstocks used, than they are affected by the high heat/alkalinity association.And different processing regimes can lead to reduction or enhancement--of the functionality and bioavailability--of the various acidic and basic components of any given biochar. Biochar is highly variable depending on feedstock, and goes it through several "phase changes" as heating increases--involving almost every chemical reaction imaginable--so it shouldn't be surprising to get conflicting results from only minor variations in processing conditions.=== So I guess I shouldn't have been putting that out there as a general rule of thumb, but more as a starting point for anyone wanting to try designing a particular quality into their biochar. As it says on page 68, "...biochars can be produced at almost any pH between 4 and 12 (Lehmann, 2007) and can decrease to a pH value of 2.5 after short-term incubation of four months at 70 degrees C (Cheng et al, 2006)." Things can even change as the biochar matures and ages. I think the only rule of thumb about biochar should be that no blanket statements can be made. Have I back-peddled enough? As long as it's as a relative tendancy and not as a rule, I think it'd be okay to post that elsewhere; but it needs to be within the larger context of tentative observations and speculations--please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essay Posted September 19, 2009 Report Share Posted September 19, 2009 worman seems liek a real knowledgable feller. i am looking through his site, some neat info. but i dont see his worm herding technique. as it turns out, the farm next to ours, a retired coconut farm, is changing crops and they are cutting the coco down, large ones. i am asking if they want to jsut dump the logs on my land and i can find a use for them. i was thinking growing some Reishi mushrooms as they grow on coconut well, but i am also totally into soil improvement if someone thinks of something. one thought was grow the mushrooms, then let the microrganisms, beetle larva, worms and whatever else want a feed in and use the final result as a real rich "loamy mulch" type thing. anyone tried similar things? the trees are about 60cm+ diameter so not little or fast to break down. Well it sounds as if you're already effectively herding the worms. I've only seen it demonstrated once, but basically it was, as you did, encourage the worms to move to one side of the "pile" ...and also, mainly, to discourage them from enjoying the other side--by exposing it to light/heat/drying air. After a while you rake through the relatively worm-free side to collect the casting-rich compost until you get to wetter cooler dirt with worms in it. Then you wait till that dirt/compost warms and dries enough, and the worms have moved further toward the cool wet side. Basically you keep chasing them into a small pile of remaining cool wet dirt and then let the kids pick them all out. A few get caught in the raking and collecting, but that just enriches the mixture. :evil: Good luck with the logs. Muxhrooms would be a good first step towards getting those logs into the soil (in some form or another). They might be a lot easier to work with (split, chip, or shave) after a few mushroom harvests. hmmmm.... Now I'm wondering what sort of biochar derives from rotted wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essay Posted September 19, 2009 Report Share Posted September 19, 2009 In the beginning stages of getting the farm built and have decided to turn 1/4-1/2 into an experimental multi crop section. the goal is to use all space available for food plants and get as high yields without additional chemicals. I have been running an experimental bed for 3 years which is packed with plants and uses a tera pretta style soil. lots of charcoal and some brick/broken pottery. this bed i just use all the dead plants/leaves and other organic waste (including caterpillars/snails that get the hammer :evil:) and it has been good, but moderate yields of things like pepper, tomato and such. so i am starting with a flat piece of hard crappy dirt. i am planning on bringing in dead vegetation (lots around after this recent typhoon!) and taking the wood to make charcoal and the rest to make compost/loam. Question is what are some good ways to really *FEED* plants via organic. i know its a slower process, but surely there are ways if planned ahead and just let it run as a constant cycle...? i also do the "throw it on the surface" technique. leaves and such just get thrown all over the ground, it has been a very effective "slow release" fertilizer the last 3 years, but i need a boost. any thoughts? "...it has been good, but moderate yields of things like pepper, tomato and such." -Ganoderma That could be a fungal/bacterial thing, but....=== About the "maturing" of biochar in the soil--and its variable effects: After reading about these effects (with lots more to read), I'm getting the sense that:Especially for low-temp. chars (with more bacterially-edible volatiles), these can stimulate microbial growth and-- while the growth phase is ongoing--the available nutrients (for the plants) can be sucked up by the microbes. It is only later as the microbial populations stop blooming and stabilize that they will release nutrients back to the plants--or cycle new nutrients to the plants. This could be operating in general for all nutrients, or for just one or two specific nutrients.=== I think the sugars and compost teas help feed the growing populations (and help innoculate new areas)--leading to a quicker stabilizing of the microbial populations--so healthy and rapid nutrient cycling can proceed and include the plants. It's great to get those algaes growing--fixing CO2 and N2--leading to less need for supplemental organic matter to maintain the bacteria and/or fungi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemit Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 A friend pointed out to me that I had forgotten to mention that I use pine bedding with a little baking soda for my guinea pigs. I hope nobody got the pH mixed up because I failed to mention that. --lemit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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