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Hey, I was bored in school so I went over to google and saw that the LHC is running. Three hours ago they launched particles over the first circuit. This is amazing how this machine might give us a glimps into the creation of the big bang ( or it could kill us all by opening a black hole as some say).

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http://lhc.web.cern.ch/lhc/

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I've heard the "doomsday" fear among the "Christian" forums...:)

What most don't realize is that black holes require special spacial requirements. Null geodesics are a rare phenomenon and we can only speculate through math that they are caused by collapsing super-stars. This is the biggest battleground of string theory vs. quantum vs. M-theory (supersymmetry in matrix form). Even a wormhole would not open with a collision involving mere GigaEv's or GEv's x 10 ^ 43. Natural wormholes are thought to exist in galactic cores; one possible reason that a few galaxies are in lockstep or blueshift with our own, still a galactic core sports energy that a single star, let alone an artificial device, cannot hope to approach.

To understand wormholes, one must first understand hyperbolic, global geodesics and the difference between weak and strong gravitational fields. Creating a null geodesic is approaching infinity, if not reaching it, where a wormhole created on the Planck scale does not have the same energy requirement, it has, instead, a geometric requirement. This has been proven with the Casimir Effect, only the geometry to enhance the effect is, as of yet, unknown or at best undisclosed.

If someone truly knows this, do you think they'll just grin and serve it up to the net?

As of now, even if we had the geometry, what would we do with it? With the current thermodynamic explanation of timespace, we could go into the future of... somewhere. Maybe a nanosecond to that somewhere, like "Stargate." Could we then return to that original side of the wormhole in the same time we started? I doubt it. The same old one way trip.

What if the universe is not a single evolving globe of matter, but a string of multi-dimensional frames strung together wormholes that exist in every primary particle? What if the particles are simply 4space projections of a 3space palimpsest that stores all the information in a near infinite array that is deciphered by a near infinite band of wavelengths? IMO the geometry of the universe, meaning all the frames that ever were or ever will be, ends up resembling the double-helix of our DNA: Two parallel universal masses connected through time-line wormholes that resemble the RNA linking the two helixes.

Just some food for thought...

Dr. C.

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If we all die, its your fault. :-P

That is very interesting. I never really knew it was that complex just to create a black hole. I knew it on some level but still.

What is Blueshift?

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Hey Dr. C , i just posted a thread in physics, and you are the person i was hoping to see an answer from, can you run some numbers on this in the physics thread, i have had to convince too many people that nothing that can be gotten as a result from LHC testing would be able to consume the planet, but without having numbers it can be hard, having a reference would be nice :), can you run some numbers on...

oh, speaking of "Stargate", have you ran any numbers on how big the entrance to the wormhole would have to be to pass an atom through it? from what some people made me understand, it would have to be significantly larger then what is shown in the series...?

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If we all die, its your fault. :-P

it would be the coolest death, i mean think about it... "Cause of Death: Consumed by a miniature Black Whole"

What is Blueshift?

Doppler Effect with regards to electromagnetic waves... more here: Blue Shift

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But isnt mass proportionate to energy, and isnt GigaEv's or GEv's x 10 ^ 43 related to the sun's mass? So couldnt you make a black hole with very little matter?

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ok, if you have little matter, you need to have a lot of energy to create a wormhole or a black whole, lets see what we are working with here:

special relativity tells us that the kinetic energy of a body that is moving at a large fraction of the speed of light, can be approximated by the following formula:

$E_k=m \gamma c^2-mc^2=mc^2 \left( \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-(v/c)^2}}-1\right)$

mass - mass of a proton is 1.67262158X10^-27 kg, there are 1.15X10^11 protons per bunch, lets use that to calculate energy per bunch

velocity will equal to 99.999999% of c or 299792455.00207542m/s

speed of light, lets assume to be 299792458m/s

we get:

$E_k = (0.000000000000000192350817kg)*(299792458m/s)^2 \left( \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-((299792455.00207542m/s)/(299792458m/s))^2}}-1\right)$

doing some math

$E_k=17.287629291300790103401188 \left(\frac{1}{0.0000000199999999}-1\right)$

and finally we come to 864381451.599318 J

now i must be missing something, wiki lists 724MJ as energy carried by 2 beams, i am getting 864 per beam per bunch... must be missing something... :shrug:

must investigate the cause of error, and who is erroneous; must consult expert... Dr. C?

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What does the "J" stand for in 864381451.599318 J. is it a unit of measure? I am not faimiliar with some of your math.

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found it found one of my errors i missed a square root....

0.000000000000000192350817*299792458^2*(1/sqrt(1-(299792455.00207542/299792458)^2)-1) = 122224.711701

(ofcourse i have that calculated to 100 decimal places)

122224.7117014934723171083511124033422858004661434021460847203496654035873239256278127974711363291121212945

122KJ is closer to reality...

so per beam, we have 122224.711701 * 2808 (bunches) equating to 343206990.456408 J per beam.

since we have 2 travelling in opposite directions, energy should double to 686413980.912816J or about 680MJ... which is closer, though now a figure short of the proposed energy of the beams in the collider on wiki, but its something we can work with :)

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we can continue, but i will do so in the physics section, because i think this is far out of the way of the engineering section (and people there would be more likely to catch errors)

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Hi folks,

Limited time today and where the posting of math in this forum is concerned, I need some type (no pun intended) of guide to the html format that allows me to build an equation like Alexander has. I can do this readily at my own msn forum, but the character format here is different. Help me and I'll help you back.

Theory5,

Yes, those are stellar mass quantities. Alexander described blueshift. Blueshift means the galaxy is approaching us; the opposite of redshift.

All,

I believe this is an engineering discussion as much as physics. We are discussing the LHC from the connection to black holes and it has already developed into the question of "what if...?", thus a quest for a device.

The LHC does not have the energy neccessary to create a black hole or even a worm hole through collisions. A device could possibly created that would conform to power requirements of whatever is neccessary to move a particular mass quantity through a particular gravity field a particular distance. I've been researching this type of device for about 40 years now. I wouldn't just dump the potential experimental device onto the net, but I'll discuss the geometry of hyperbolic geodesics.

Let's cut to the chase before I proceed (also I can work on other threads and go about my busy day while we get the agreement of all about the limitations of the discussion to non-proprietary material...:evil:)... we are discussing the concepts of a time machine and how the LHC's research will affect that concept. All agree to these terms?

Dr. C.

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Hi folks,

A device could possibly created that would conform to power requirements of whatever is neccessary to move a particular mass quantity through a particular gravity field a particular distance.

we are discussing the concepts of a time machine and how the LHC's research will affect that concept. All agree to these terms?

Dr. C.

So the device you are talking about is a time machine?

Sure. That sounds very interesting.

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I agree slightly, time machines can not physically possibly go backwards. Time is only a conception and not a physical existence, it is a virtual based measure of counting. but it is possible to speed up the things around you buy slowing yourself down for example if you where near a black whole everything would be sped up and your aging would go much faster just like space traveling at high speeds i am not exactly sure how it works but it would be very interesting to find out.

so basically to them making this project a form of studying time machine's it would be possible to incorporate that into their study, ...but that would be a very big side track to their main focus of discovery. Though that would be a very interesting to experiment with.

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The LHC does not have the energy neccessary to create a black hole

well, yes and no, as far as i can see this...

does not have enough matter to create a black hole, here is my delema, though, if you were to take the amount of matter, and use the Schwarzschild equations predicting that the mass of a black hole increases with the amount of heat energy fed into it. so if we took the total amount of mass, smashed it together, and took all the kinetic energy convert it to heat, and feed it into the black hole, would we have enough energy to increase the mass of the black hole to actually be big enough to break the limit of the smallest black hole minimum mass limit of $2\times10{^-8} kg$... now, i know that is a lot of what-ifs and things that have a very low probability of occurring even with magical physics, but, nevertheless, in the LHC thread disproving any kind of high probability of anything bad happening.

p.s. equation i was referring to was $dS=8\pi MdQ$ where $dQ$ is the quantity of heat

with that mass changes with this formula $dS=d(4\pi M^2)$

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So its improbable that a black hole would gather enough mass to become more than the black hole minimum mass.

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what would happen if something was in the vacume that would interfere with the particles??? or the LHC had a problem like a crack or something?? could a blackhole be created if the vacume was broken??? what would happen if a blackhole did possibly get created, what would they do and would it be contained in the vacume??????? would they have to figure out how to reverse a black whole while keeping it contianted O_O

of course this probably won't happen though considering the energy put into this project but you never know there is alot of human error in the world

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