Why do UFO's spin?

[Moontanman]

Have you tried Googling spinning UFO's? If you had, you'd see several different reports from places as diverse as Holland, France, even America. Whether you 'believe' these are not credible or alien is up to you but the thing to remember is that whether you are a believer or a sceptic, you cannot 'know' for sure what they are unless extremely clear sightings to you personally.

May I suggest you provide links to "spinning UFOs instead of telling me to "look them up" I think that would be the way the forum is supposed to work.

 

 

What do I mean by this? As I said elsewhere recently, second hand information depends on the witnesses interpretation of what they saw and then yours on top of that (As you weren't there you cannot be sure what anyone else saw).

Hmmm, isn't this basically what is wrong with UFO evidence anyway?

 

 

On top of this things are what they are but only they know for sure what they are - to simplify with an example: You see a light in the sky and assume it is a plane but only the object knows for sure if it is a UFO, helicopter, airship, meteorite, ball lightning etc. you can only guess unless it gets close enough for you to identify without doubt. To clarify further the believer and belief are separate from that which is observed (or can be).

 

I have two terms I find useful in this context - 'Recognition Point', where something unclear and mysterious suddenly clicks into place as something you've seen before and you realize what that is and 'Discrimination Point', where something that has merged into the background, again becomes obvious as being separate from it but is unrecognizable because it is unknown to us from previous experience.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that any light in the sky should be considered an alien space craft just because you can't see it clearly? I remember during the shut down of air travel as the result of 9/11. I took my son down to the beach (dark sky) and told him he was looking at something he might not ever see again, the sky without any moving lights of aircraft. 100 years ago this was what the night sky looked like. We sat on the beach for a couple of hours and looked for moving lights. If alien space craft are so common we should be suspicious of every moving light we should have seen at least one, we saw nothing but a couple of shooting stars. It was a sobering sight, something I had never seen, but no alien space craft. BTW I am pretty good and discerning the difference between meteorites, ball lightning, air planes and helicopters and I don't expect to see many airships but you do make a good point, If I was flying an alien space craft at high altitudes I would just put normal aircraft lights on it and no one would know the difference. makes you wonder why the ones we "see" are lighted up so strangely, I'm betting they are smart enough to know this.

 

 

So you're not angry? Maybe it's the brusque and to the point style you have, that gives this impression?

Could be

[paigetheoracle]

May I suggest you provide links to "spinning UFOs instead of telling me to "look them up" I think that would be the way the forum is supposed to work.

Canada, 1974 - farmer saw several spinning UFO's lift out of field (crop circles?)

 

Eugene, Oregan, late 80's - witness saw silver spinning disc

 

Chicage, O'Hare Airport, Nov. 7th, 2006 - a dozen witnesses saw spinning object hovering over runway for several minutes

 

Waterhen Lake, Saskatchewan, April 25th, 2006 - nightwatchman saw spinning object over work place

 

Old Crow, Yukon Territory, Sept. 20th, 1986 - spinning object reported in sky

 

Bulgaria, YouTube (no date given) - spinning disc clearly seen

 

 

Hmmm, isn't this basically what is wrong with UFO evidence anyway?

 

 

 

 

Are you seriously trying to suggest that any light in the sky should be considered an alien space craft just because you can't see it clearly? If alien space craft are so common we should be suspicious of every moving light . BTW I am pretty good and discerning the difference between meteorites, ball lightning, air planes and helicopters and I don't expect to see many airships but you do make a good point, If I was flying an alien space craft at high altitudes I would just put normal aircraft lights on it and no one would know the difference. makes you wonder why the ones we "see" are lighted up so strangely, I'm betting they are smart enough to know this.

 

No, in answer to your first question above. In relation to your second, implied point - human aircraft in the sky don't hide their presence if civilian and even advertise it, indicating lack of fear of discovery but military craft do their best to disguise their presence because they don't want to be targeted by a hostile reception from those opposed to their maneouvres.

 

Another point is that this is a guessing game 'Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's-' . When a plane flies over my head in broad daylight, I say 'It's a plane'. When A UFO flies over my head in broad daylight, I go 'What the hell was that?'. Sceptics and Believers are both sure what they saw (aircraft/ alien craft) and this makes them equal in my mind - I take the view of doubt, which means I don't always know for sure what I've seen, so don't label anything for certain one way or the other: In Scotland they had three verdicts for court cases until recently - guilty, not guilty and not proven. In other words if there is any doubt then the verdict had to reflect this doubt until (and if) further evidence occurred to shift the balance one way or the other. In the coroners court in England this is reflected in what is called an open verdict. Both allow for the fact that situations can be inconclusive and this should be applied to everything because there is always a no-mans land, when it comes to appearance as opposed to certainty (Too distant to be sure what it is you're seeing now, through the medium of space or too distant in time, to be certain of what existed back then/ in your memory).

[Moontanman]

No, in answer to your first question above. In relation to your second, implied point - human aircraft in the sky don't hide their presence if civilian and even advertise it, indicating lack of fear of discovery but military craft do their best to disguise their presence because they don't want to be targeted by a hostile reception from those opposed to their maneouvres.

 

First those were not links they were just statements, not acceptable!

 

Second, if an alien space craft can fly from another star system to the Earth I doubt very seriously they worry too much about human interdiction. I would have to say at the very least they could handle anything we could do to them. Simply blending in would be the easiest route, and since we can hide from radar I'm betting they can too. So again I'll ask "Are you seriously suggesting that any light in the sky should be considered an alien space craft until you can make a positive identification?"

 

Another point is that this is a guessing game 'Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's-' . When a plane flies over my head in broad daylight, I say 'It's a plane'. When A UFO flies over my head in broad daylight, I go 'What the hell was that?'. Sceptics and Believers are both sure what they saw (aircraft/ alien craft) and this makes them equal in my mind - I take the view of doubt, which means I don't always know for sure what I've seen, so don't label anything for certain one way or the other: In Scotland they had three verdicts for court cases until recently - guilty, not guilty and not proven. In other words if there is any doubt then the verdict had to reflect this doubt until (and if) further evidence occurred to shift the balance one way or the other. In the coroners court in England this is reflected in what is called an open verdict. Both allow for the fact that situations can be inconclusive and this should be applied to everything because there is always a no-mans land, when it comes to appearance as opposed to certainty (Too distant to be sure what it is you're seeing now, through the medium of space or too distant in time, to be certain of what existed back then/ in your memory).

 

Even in day light a common aircraft can be mistaken for something unusual, I can show you the effect several times a day, I live in the landing pattern of an airport. When ever you see something unusual you should always assume you are simply looking at an common object, not an alien space craft. If you can i will agree you should observe it as long as possible but to claim every time you see an cigar shaped silvery object over head for a few seconds it's an alien space craft is disingenuous to say the least. Unless you have real evidence claiming such a thing simply confuses the issue and contributes nothing to the problem. If I had claimed a alien space craft every time I've seen a cylindrical object fly over I'd be thought an idiot and they'd be correct! As for saucer shaped, the very notion of saucer shaped is is suspect due to the way it came into the common mind set of the population. almost every time a light is seen some one will claim it was a saucer shape, total BS!

[paigetheoracle]

First those were not links they were just statements, not acceptable!

 

Sorry! I realized this afterwards This isn't the only site I nicked the information from but I can't be bothered trying to retrace my steps and collect the rest as you seem totally sceptical of the whole idea, which would mean it would be a waste of my time and yours - I'd paste up the URL's but you either wouldn't follow them up or would debunk them without a second thought. Prove me wrong by providing evidence that you have an open (scientific) attitude towards the subject, not a closed mind i.e. reasonable doubt about it.

 

Second, if an alien space craft can fly from another star system to the Earth I doubt very seriously they worry too much about human interdiction. I would have to say at the very least they could handle anything we could do to them. Simply blending in would be the easiest route, and since we can hide from radar I'm betting they can too. So again I'll ask "Are you seriously suggesting that any light in the sky should be considered an alien space craft until you can make a positive identification?"

 

Again, if they come here and can outmaneouvre our military defenses, then they'd have no reason to hide and might even be very cheeky about their presence but that would imply that they are perfect rather than 'human' i.e. makes mistakes/ are invulnerable/ aren't overconfident in their abilities.

 

No, what I'm suggesting is that if something isn't positively identified then that is what it stays on record i.e. unknown - in other words an unidentified flying object. Clear?

 

 

 

Even in day light a common aircraft can be mistaken for something unusual, I can show you the effect several times a day, I live in the landing pattern of an airport. When ever you see something unusual you should always assume you are simply looking at an common object, not an alien space craft. If you can i will agree you should observe it as long as possible but to claim every time you see an cigar shaped silvery object over head for a few seconds it's an alien space craft is disingenuous to say the least. Unless you have real evidence claiming such a thing simply confuses the issue and contributes nothing to the problem. If I had claimed a alien space craft every time I've seen a cylindrical object fly over I'd be thought an idiot and they'd be correct! As for saucer shaped, the very notion of saucer shaped is is suspect due to the way it came into the common mind set of the population. almost every time a light is seen some one will claim it was a saucer shape, total BS!

 

With regards to the above, I remember a case where a guy videoed a cigar shaped object flying over his house, amongst other odd items in the sky. If you looked closely you could see strobing winglights in seeming mid air, disclosing it as an aircraft almost certainly. By strange coincidence I also live on the flight path of an airfield - Prestwick Airport, in Scotland. One day when I first moved into the area I saw a formation of three slow moving objects at cloud level, while I assume that these were microlights, I can't prove it - would you happen to know how high these motorized triangular kites can fly?

 

I've seen maybe half a dozen UFO's, most of which I have doubts about because they were not clear enough and unambiguous enough to be certain of in an argument, and one that I definitely saw, as did others around the planet because it appeared in a book I read about the subject years later but the bizarre bit about it was the attitude of school friends with me, who like you, acted as if the phenomena wasn't there (long black needle shape seen in clear daylight, drifting slowly between the clouds at an oblique angle, clearly visible for at least ten minutes and several hundred feet long). This is what fascinates me, not the objects themselves but the mind set of the deniers.:singer::shrug:

 

You might like to read my post at another site I belong to on this subject, if it gets posted

(details and URL later, if appropriate or I can cut and paste you a version - whoops! here it ishttp://http://www.uk-ufo.org/ufologyinuk/viewtopic.php?t=1907 - didn't think it would get accepted!).

 

By the way an analogy might suffice to understand my position in all this. Would I want a believer with his finger on the button? No, because he might overreact and push it, believing that every blip was an enemy rocket coming towards him/ his homeland. Would I want an arch sceptic? No because he wouldn't believe any radar blip was anything but an identified target. I'd want a doubter who checked because they wouldn't jump to conclusions either way but would investigate and get counter information on the subject - in other words fail safe devices like the brain (perceiving in the present moment, rather than lost in past prejudice or future hope (Who says aliens, if they exist, are any different from us? In other words they could be friendly but who's to say they aren't hostile - test the waters first)).;)

[Moontanman]

I give up Paige, last night the aliens landed in my back yard and told me they spin to stabilize the nuclear properties of neutronium their saucers are made of, why didn't you tell me you were in direct contact with them? had I known that I wouldn't ever have questioned your expertise on the subject :shrug:

 

Few things are less ridiculous than absolute believers and absolute skeptics, (something I've said more than once here on these forums) you insult me by suggesting that real links and evidence would not persuade me when i have stated several times I have seen evidence concrete enough to make me believe something unusual is going on. Is that I refuse to say alien space craft or UFO and say "something unusual" instead that bothers you? So far you have provided no real evidence and the one link you provided doesn't work. I am nether believer or debunker, I am neutral, i await the evidence and look at it totally dispassionately. I do not denigrate people who have sighted something they don't under stand by giving an off the cull remark that is demeaning nor do i pump up some one who had a sighting by agreeing with him. I follow the evidence, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, Carl Sagan said that and I follow his advice on the matter. He is my hero!

[paigetheoracle]

I give up Paige, last night the aliens landed in my back yard and told me they spin to stabilize the nuclear properties of neutronium their saucers are made of, why didn't you tell me you were in direct contact with them? had I known that I wouldn't ever have questioned your expertise on the subject :shrug:

 

Few things are less ridiculous than absolute believers and absolute skeptics, (something I've said more than once here on these forums) you insult me by suggesting that real links and evidence would not persuade me when i have stated several times I have seen evidence concrete enough to make me believe something unusual is going on. Is that I refuse to say alien space craft or UFO and say "something unusual" instead that bothers you? So far you have provided no real evidence and the one link you provided doesn't work. I am nether believer or debunker, I am neutral, i await the evidence and look at it totally dispassionately. I do not denigrate people who have sighted something they don't under stand by giving an off the cull remark that is demeaning nor do i pump up some one who had a sighting by agreeing with him. I follow the evidence, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, Carl Sagan said that and I follow his advice on the matter. He is my hero!

 

You're right, I do remember you saying that but being old (57) and very weary, I'd forgot. As for the label "something unusual" I'd have to say that too of my observations and unidentified flying object equates to that in my mind but alien craft doesn't necessarily as it implies it is known, even if not recognized as human. As I said, my first sighting was the best and most perplexing because of how my friends reacted to it - hence my reaction are these things physically real?

 

Again I posted the report in Nexus Magazine about a woman who was driven to a spot where she claimed to have seen something 'unusual' and then started to describe being abducted by aliens, to the amazement of the investigators as she was physically still standing next to the vehicle (all in the mind? psychic? again why do some people see these things and others don't? Why the 'high strangeness' of some encounters? Personally I think Quantum Mechanics is closer to the truth of what is happening than Newtonian physics and sceptics seem to follow that model more than the former). I think the problem is not the weirdness of the phenomena but the words used. Whether somebody calls it an alien craft, UFO or light in the sky is semantics. What lies behind the phenomena, when you scrape away the words is what matters.

 

So is your real beef then in the title of this thread and 'spinning UFO's?' If so I'll provide fresh links. By the way if I'd meant all, I'd have said all. Maybe if I'd said 'some', you'd have been happier, rather than 'the majority', which you're right I haven't proved and could only prove through a massive survey or trawl through the archives, which is hardly worth the effort in my opinion. I concede your point, if that is all there is to it.

[Moontanman]

You're right, I do remember you saying that but being old (57) and very weary, I'd forgot. As for the label "something unusual" I'd have to say that too of my observations and unidentified flying object equates to that in my mind but alien craft doesn't necessarily as it implies it is known, even if not recognized as human. As I said, my first sighting was the best and most perplexing because of how my friends reacted to it - hence my reaction are these things physically real?

 

Some I fear are not, unusual things seen by a lone individual are suspect for this reason, when there is more than one witness and only one sees the object it is an order of magnitude more suspicious.

 

Again I posted the report in Nexus Magazine about a woman who was driven to a spot where she claimed to have seen something 'unusual' and then started to describe being abducted by aliens, to the amazement of the investigators as she was physically still standing next to the vehicle (all in the mind? psychic? again why do some people see these things and others don't? Why the 'high strangeness' of some encounters? Personally I think Quantum Mechanics is closer to the truth of what is happening than Newtonian physics and sceptics seem to follow that model more than the former). I think the problem is not the weirdness of the phenomena but the words used. Whether somebody calls it an alien craft, UFO or light in the sky is semantics. What lies behind the phenomena, when you scrape away the words is what matters.

 

There is very little doubt that magnetic fields, both the earths natural dynamo and transient fields caused by stress in the Earth's crust can cause hallucinations in some people. Some are much more prone than others. such an event would have to be suspect and when two or more people see or have an encounter and the memories are significantly different this would also seem to come into play as well.

 

So is your real beef then in the title of this thread and 'spinning UFO's?' If so I'll provide fresh links. By the way if I'd meant all, I'd have said all. Maybe if I'd said 'some', you'd have been happier, rather than 'the majority', which you're right I haven't proved and could only prove through a massive survey or trawl through the archives, which is hardly worth the effort in my opinion. I concede your point, if that is all there is to it.

 

That is my basic problem, I see no reason to assume such a thing and it might even mean these sighting are hallucinations since spinning might seem to be a product of a mind that isn't in complete control of it's visual faculties.

 

So you are 57? We are very close to the same age, we have almost certainly trod the same path occasionally in our quest to understand what is going on.

[stereologist]

This is what fascinates me, not the objects themselves but the mind set of the deniers.

 

What fascinates me is the mind set of the people that have to come up with bizarre suggestions for observations. Why should I accept a statement of UFO from someone who says it is? There's a little light in the sky and its a spinning vehicle complete with aliens? There's a circular burn mark on the ground and its an alien landing spot? (To see a round burn mark please check out Lake Drummond, Virginia. It's miles across!)

 

To get back to spinning objects, I once saw a lenticular cloud over a peak. It appeared to be spinning over the top of the mountain. In fact it was not. The cloud formed on the left and dissolved on the right. My impression was that it was spinning. In fact, it was simply flowing from left to right. The illusion of spinning was very compelling. Since I knew this was a cloud and not an alien space craft, since I knew the manner in which lenticulars formed, then I was able to understand what I was observing. Maybe none of the objects mentioned before was spinning.

 

From the Yahoo online dictionary: bizarre - Strikingly unconventional and far-fetched in style or appearance; odd.

 

Google Maps of Lake Drummond

[paigetheoracle]

Some I fear are not, unusual things seen by a lone individual are suspect for this reason, when there is more than one witness and only one sees the object it is an order of magnitude more suspicious.

 

 

 

There is very little doubt that magnetic fields, both the earths natural dynamo and transient fields caused by stress in the Earth's crust can cause hallucinations in some people. Some are much more prone than others. such an event would have to be suspect and when two or more people see or have an encounter and the memories are significantly different this would also seem to come into play as well.

 

 

 

That is my basic problem, I see no reason to assume such a thing and it might even mean these sighting are hallucinations since spinning might seem to be a product of a mind that isn't in complete control of it's visual faculties.

 

So you are 57? We are very close to the same age, we have almost certainly trod the same path occasionally in our quest to understand what is going on.

 

The only real point I'd bring up is that not all sightings are witnessed by one person alone. It's like some people are colour blind, which means that they don't see the world as the rest of us do and it could be UFO witnesses are able to access something visually that ordinary people cannot. As for the electro-magnetic idea, Michael Persinger followed that up of course and Jenny Randles in the UK suggested roving EM fields as explanation.

 

Anyway I'm sure we have both trod this path often enough, so let's put this baby to sleep (Note I've altered the initial paragraph to this thread to reflect this).

[paigetheoracle]

Hmm, spin, OK, I can think of at least one reason to spin a disk shaped craft. If you propel it from a point source somewhere near the middle of the craft then spin would affect it like a Frisbee and allow the entire craft to be accelerated at once by a force that would just cause it to tumble uncontrollably if the craft wasn't spinning. Of course you would have to make some assumptions, like the existence of spinning disk shaped alien space craft just to start with:hyper:

 

 

At last you got the point of the whole exercise, just like I got yours about 'The Majority', finally!:singer:

 

Are we 'both' really that thick?:)

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Perché il film guardati vecchio di noi filatura piatti e pensato che sembrava cool

 

 

Hanno preso la pizza tutta lancio sbagliato .....[ grilli frinire]

 

 

Hanno appena cant get enough dei Merry Go Round

 

 

Tutti UFS sono veramente convertiti Gravitrons:hihi:

 

 

Sono Messin con la nostra testa e godere ridere i nostri sforzi per comprendere il tutto filatura

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

:hihi:La noia cose che mi fanno fare

 

 

Because the watched old films of us spinning plates and thought it looked cool:D

 

They got the whole pizza tossing thing wrong.....[crickets chirping]

 

They just cant get enough of the merry go round

 

All UFS's are really converted Gravitrons:hihi:

 

They are messin with our heads and enjoy laughing at our efforts to understand the whole spinning thing

[paigetheoracle]

:hihi:La noia cose che mi fanno fare

 

 

Because the watched old films of us spinning plates and thought it looked cool:D

 

They got the whole pizza tossing thing wrong.....[crickets chirping]

 

They just cant get enough of the merry go round

 

All UFS's are really converted Gravitrons:hihi:

 

They are messin with our heads and enjoy laughing at our efforts to understand the whole spinning thing

 

Ach so! Ich habe gewundert was sie hast heir gesprachen mit uns brainless gewunderers Mein Herr! (Mein glasses, mein eyebrows too!)

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

ah! I wondered what they have heir speckled surfaces with us gewunderers brainless my lord! (my glasses, my eyebrows too!)

???????????????????????????????????

[paigetheoracle]

???????????????????????????????????:P

 

Yes and eggnogs on Wednesday but enough of this off kilter banter, which is well off post:naughty: