Future evolution of intelligence

[Moontanman]

What species we know of today show promise for evolving into the another intelligent species after humans have left the Earth? My favorite along these lines is the Meercat, these lovable animals would seem to be poised to follow in the foot steps of our own species. Any other ideas?

[Moontanman]

Another non primate that seems to on the begining of the path towards possible tool using, language, and culture is the giant river otter.

[freeztar]

What about dolphins?

 

They would have to make the leap to land, but considering the rate in which the oceans are being depleted, they may be forced to.

[Moontanman]

What about dolphins?

 

They would have to make the leap to land, but considering the rate in which the oceans are being depleted, they may be forced to.

 

Actually I hadn't thought of cetaceans in this context. I recently read where cetaceans already have a considerable amount of culture and possibly even oral tradition. I'm not sure if cetaceans will ever really be technological and although it may be wrong to limit intelligence by using technology as a prerequisite I was when I started this thread thinking of a tool using technological type intelligence. Of course real intelligence doesn't necessarily mean tools but I think a member of SETI said it best when asked how could they judge intelligence if they found it and she replied the only prerequisite we look for is the ability to make a radio telescope, nothing else matters in our context (paraphrasing)

[modest]

What about dolphins?

 

I like the Encephalization way of determining intelligence. It leaves out the impressions or intuitions that we have about animals that probably throw off this kind of thing. The method also gives dolphins the credit they deserve. I think dolphins are very close to human-like intelligence (ie being able to pass on and build knowledge from generation to generation).

 

Brain and Body Size... and Intelligence

has a good description of the 'allometry' encephalization method. I won't describe it here, but the results are:

Human          7.44  Cat    1.00
Dolphin        5.31  Horse  0.86
Chimpanzee     2.49  Sheep  0.81
Rhesus Monkey  2.09  Mouse  0.50
Elephant       1.87  Rat    0.40
Whale          1.76  Rabbit 0.40
Dog            1.17 

where '1.0' represents average mammalian intelligence. Cool stuff.

 

-modest

[Moontanman]

I like the Encephalization way of determining intelligence. It leaves out the impressions or intuitions that we have about animals that probably throw off this kind of thing. The method also gives dolphins the credit they deserve. I think dolphins are very close to human-like intelligence (ie being able to pass on and build knowledge from generation to generation).

 

Brain and Body Size... and Intelligence

has a good description of the 'allometry' encephalization method. I won't describe it here, but the results are:

Human          7.44  Cat    1.00
Dolphin        5.31  Horse  0.86
Chimpanzee     2.49  Sheep  0.81
Rhesus Monkey  2.09  Mouse  0.50
Elephant       1.87  Rat    0.40
Whale          1.76  Rabbit 0.40
Dog            1.17 

where '1.0' represents average mammalian intelligence. Cool stuff.

 

-modest

 

I wonder what this says about the elephant nose fish, it's brain to body mass is higher than a human. Humans brains amke up some 2.3% of our body by weight and use 20% of our oxygen intake. The elephant nose fish fish has a brain to body weight of 3.1 percent of it's total body mass and it's brian uses up some 60% of it's oxygen intake!

[Moontanman]

For the sake of argument lets say "Future Evolution of Tool Using Intelligences" while I really like the debate about intelligence of whales (I think they just might be smarter than us in some ways) if a creature cannot make and use tools to manipulate it's environment it's intelligence will not be able to build a technological civilization and never go to the stars or have any real impact on the universe outside it's own mind. I was thinking about another intelligence we could watch or guide into the future of space travel and the universe. I genuinely think that any intelligence will eventually die out or advance toward leaving the Earth for space. Only tool using intelligences have the option of the latter. Extinction or expansion, everything leads to one or the other.

[InfiniteNow]

If you limit it to the use of tools, then I'll say Crows. Check this out:

 

TED | Talks | Joshua Klein: The amazing intelligence of crows (video)

 

 

 

 

Seriously. Wow. :)

[modest]

I wonder what this says about the elephant nose fish, it's brain to body mass is higher than a human. Humans brains amke up some 2.3% of our body by weight and use 20% of our oxygen intake. The elephant nose fish fish has a brain to body weight of 3.1 percent of it's total body mass and it's brian uses up some 60% of it's oxygen intake!

 

It looks like from the equation on the web page it would end up at about 2.4. I had to guess its body mass - it's not a simple ratio but depends on total mass. This is because smaller animals tend to have a larger brain to body mass ratio without an appreciable intelligence advantage. However, 2.4 is no doubt wrong as the page says the equation is limited to mammals - I assume there are different constants involved with reptiles, fish, amphibians, birds, etc. It doesn't look like it gives the appropriate equation for any but mammals.

 

On the original topic, I'm afraid the life form destined to take over after our demise would have to be artificially intelligent robots :)

 

-modest

[Moontanman]

It looks like from the equation on the web page it would end up at about 2.4. I had to guess its body mass - it's not a simple ratio but depends on total mass. This is because smaller animals tend to have a larger brain to body mass ratio without an appreciable intelligence advantage. However, 2.4 is no doubt wrong as the page says the equation is limited to mammals - I assume there are different constants involved with reptiles, fish, amphibians, birds, etc. It doesn't look like it gives the appropriate equation for any but mammals.

 

On the original topic, I'm afraid the life form destined to take over after our demise would have to be artificially intelligent robots :)

 

-modest

 

I hope you are wrong about robots, it would be shame if all we eventually aspire to is replaced by robots with no real motivation to do anything but exist and maybe not even that. what weight did you ascribe the fish? The particular species referred to can weigh as much as a pound but the brain size is gigantic compared to other fish.

[Moontanman]

If you limit it to the use of tools, then I'll say Crows. Check this out:

 

TED | Talks | Joshua Klein: The amazing intelligence of crows (video)

 

 

 

 

Seriously. Wow. :)

 

Crows are no doubt a contender and for more reasons than their use of tools, they also have a complex society but I wonder just how much tools can be used by an animals that cannot carry them around or hold one tool to modify another. I am almost sure too hands will be necessary to really develop a technological civilization. Crows do make me give that idea some pause.

Maybe we should make a list with the most likely at the top.

[modest]

I hope you are wrong about robots, it would be shame if all we eventually aspire to is replaced by robots with no real motivation to do anything but exist and maybe not even that.

 

Yup, I've seen enough BSG to know things could turn out very badly. On the other hand, being replaced and even succeeded by something of our own creation might have some associated pride. It would all depend on the circumstances I suppose. If our downfall is not the robots' fault and the robots themselves have very human-like qualities (children of humanity we could say) then we would probably have solace knowing they live on.

 

If, on the other hand, they are the thing that kills us - no solace there.

 

what weight did you ascribe the fish? The particular species referred to can weigh as much as a pound but the brain size is gigantic compared to other fish.

 

I calculated 3.1% brain mass of 1,000 grams of body mass (that's about 2.2 plounds). The calculation is:* (31 grams / 1000 grams^.66) /.13 giving about 2.5 compared to a cat which is 1.0 [see the website linked earlier for particulars]

* assuming the average mammal gives a value in parentheses of 0.13

* also assuming this particular fish is a mammal :)

 

If the average elephant nose fish had a mass of one pound then we'd get 2.04.

 

3.1% by mass is clearly a very large brain - especially for a fish. I'm jealous.

 

-modest

[Moontanman]

Yup, I've seen enough BSG to know things could turn out very badly. On the other hand, being replaced and even succeeded by something of our own creation might have some associated pride. It would all depend on the circumstances I suppose. If our downfall is not the robots' fault and the robots themselves have very human-like qualities (children of humanity we could say) then we would probably have solace knowing they live on.

 

If, on the other hand, they are the thing that kills us - no solace there.

 

 

 

I calculated 3.1% brain mass of 1,000 grams of body mass (that's about 2.2 plounds). The calculation is:* (31 grams / 1000 grams^.66) /.13 giving about 2.5 compared to a cat which is 1.0 [see the website linked earlier for particulars]

* assuming the average mammal gives a value in parentheses of 0.13

* also assuming this particular fish is a mammal :shrug:

 

If the average elephant nose fish had a mass of one pound then we'd get 2.04.

 

3.1% by mass is clearly a very large brain - especially for a fish. I'm jealous.

 

-modest

 

3.1% is very large by mass even bigger than ours, I wonder why they have such large brains, I have my suspicions but does anyone else have any ideas on this?

[Moontanman]

i am surprised no one has brought up the octopus, if they could evolve past the air water interface they would be very big contenders for future tool using intelligence. I saw a show on the science channel that showed a couple of possible ways this might be able to happen. If we Terra formed mars and brought the cephalopods with us they might some day make that leap easier on Mars than they could on the Earth. Octopus have been seen out of the water in some tropical areas catching rats..... kinda makes me glad I'm too big to be prey!

[InfiniteNow]

IIRC, when I studied this stuff over a decade ago, it wasn't so much the size of the brain, nor even the percentage of body mass which the brain composed, which matters. It was how convoluted, or how "folded" the brain matter was.

 

Basically, if brain size was all that mattered, then the blue whale would be the smartest animal alive.

 

If percentage of body mass composed by the brain were all that mattered, then the elephant nose fish would be near the top.

 

What matters is how that brain is organized, and how tightly wrinkled and folded it all is, as well as the number of neural connections.

 

You could have a brain the size of a football field, but if it only has one neuron it's not going to be all that great for processing. You could have a brain the size of a marble with more neural connections than stars in our galaxy, and despite it's small size, it would be enormously capable of processing.

 

Check it out. This has been a fun conversation, and convolution (or cortical folding) should play a role. :)

 

 

Cerebral cortex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

 

Mapping the Relationship between Cortical Convolution and Intelligence: Effects of Gender -- Luders et al., 10.1093/cercor/bhm227 -- Cerebral Cortex

The pronounced convolution of the human cortex may be a morphological substrate that supports some of our species’ most distinctive cognitive abilities. Therefore, individual intelligence within humans might be modulated by the degree of folding in certain cortical regions. We applied advanced methods to analyze cortical convolution at high spatial resolution and correlated those measurements with intelligence quotients. Within a large sample of healthy adult subjects (n = 65), we detected the most prominent correlations in the left medial hemisphere. More specifically, intelligence scores were positively associated with the degree of folding in the temporo-occipital lobe, particularly in the outermost section of the posterior cingulate gyrus (retrosplenial areas). Thus, this region might be an important contributor toward individual intelligence, either via modulating pathways to (pre)frontal regions or by serving as a location for the convergence of information. Prominent gender differences within the right frontal cortex were observed; females showed uncorrected significant positive correlations and males showed a nonsignificant trend toward negative correlations. It is possible that formerly described gender differences in regional convolution are associated with differences in the underlying architecture. This might lead to the development of sexually dimorphic information processing strategies and affect the relationship between intelligence and cortical convolution.

[freeztar]

Good point IN. The folds give more surface area.

[Moontanman]

It would appear just from inspecting the pictures that a cetacean brain is even more convoluted and complex than a human brain as well as being larger. It is pointed out that the cetacean brain is made of more primitive layers than other large mammal brains but an elephant brain is very complex as well. I remember seeing a show about elephants that said the elephant brain is significantly more complexly folded than the human brain. I'm not sure the complex folding of the cortex is the last word on this or even the main reason humans are smart (in our own definition of smart:hyper:) or that other mammals with complex brains do not seem as smart (by our definition) as humans.