snydley Posted April 15, 2008 Report Share Posted April 15, 2008 So lets talk a little about this argument of creation or intelligence vs. evolution. My personal belief here is that the earth, universe, and everything in it was created by a higher being, someone greater than us all. I want to hear from all of you...What do you think? Lets talk a little about this and about the different sides to it. Give me your opinion, but back it up with evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted April 15, 2008 Report Share Posted April 15, 2008 SMy personal belief here is that the earth, universe, and everything in it was created by a higher being, someone greater than us all. <...> Give me your opinion, but back it up with evidence. You first. :hihi: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snydley Posted April 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Ok. Lets start off with probability. What is the probability that something as complex as the earth could have just formed out of nothing? That is a number that I don't believe anyone has found. Maybe something smaller would be easer to grasp. Say we took 20 cards and numbered them 1 through 20, one number on each. Then we laid them down, mixed them up and picked them back up. What are the odds of putting them back down in order from 1 to 20 without looking? It comes out to be something like 1/2,432,902,008,176,640,000. It's simply found by multiplying 1x2x3x4...ect. all up to 20. And what if then you wanted to do it twice in a row? It would be 2,432,902,008,176,640,000 x 2,432,902,008,176,640,000. That is a big number. How about the human eye. The odds of every little thing in the human eye to evolve to how it is today would take something like 1/10 to the 20th power. Charles Darwin said this about the human eye: To suppose that the human eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree . . .. The belief that an organ as perfect as the eye could have formed by natural selection is more than enough to stagger anyone s imagination. So the chances of the earth forming from nothing and becoming what it is today, the chances of the human eye evolving into what it is today, the chances of laws such as gravity being like they are, or the fact that the earth is just so positioned that life can actually be sustained, or that if any one element would be off just a touch, if the gravity wasn't just right, if the tilt of the earth wasn't just so, then none of us would be here, none of these could have just happened or evolved, because the chances of these happening are so great that it is not possible. There had to be someone greater than us fine tuning every detail so that life can actually exist. That is the only possible explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Ok. Lets start off with probability. What is the probability that something as complex as the earth could have just formed out of nothing? That is a number that I don't believe anyone has found. The Earth did not form out of nothing. Planets are not as rare as you make them to be. Maybe something smaller would be easer to grasp. Say we took 20 cards and numbered them 1 through 20, one number on each. Then we laid them down, mixed them up and picked them back up. What are the odds of putting them back down in order from 1 to 20 without looking? It comes out to be something like 1/2,432,902,008,176,640,000. It's simply found by multiplying 1x2x3x4...ect. all up to 20. And what if then you wanted to do it twice in a row? It would be 2,432,902,008,176,640,000 x 2,432,902,008,176,640,000. That is a big number. I fail to draw the comparison between 20 inanimate cards and biogenesis. Nonetheless, that is a big number, but it is not infinity. How about the human eye. The odds of every little thing in the human eye to evolve to how it is today would take something like 1/10 to the 20th power. Charles Darwin said this about the human eye: To suppose that the human eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree . . .. The belief that an organ as perfect as the eye could have formed by natural selection is more than enough to stagger anyone s imagination.What about bird eyes, or cockroach eyes?I agree with Darwin in the sense that it seems unlikely that the eye developed in so many creatures through natural selection alone. So the chances of the earth forming from nothing and becoming what it is today, the chances of the human eye evolving into what it is today, the chances of laws such as gravity being like they are, or the fact that the earth is just so positioned that life can actually be sustained, or that if any one element would be off just a touch, if the gravity wasn't just right, if the tilt of the earth wasn't just so, then none of us would be here, none of these could have just happened or evolved, because the chances of these happening are so great that it is not possible. There had to be someone greater than us fine tuning every detail so that life can actually exist. That is the only possible explanation. You underestimate the power of chaos. :lightning In regards to the title of this thread, evolution does not deal with the earth forming, gravity, or even biogenesis, so the initial argument is moot to begin with.Furthermore, declaring that a higher power is the only possible explanation is not valid science. To be able to make such a claim in a scientific setting requires you to develop ways to make testable predictions about your theory. Otherwise, this topic is not really appropriate for the Biology forum imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snydley Posted April 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Ok, so what is your theory of how the earth, this universe and all the planets, how they were formed? The card illustration is just a smaller example of how seemingly impossible it can be to get something (such as 20 cards to line up numerically after mixing them up) to fall into place perfectly with no flaws or mistakes. We are talking about Creation vs. Evolution here, the probability that the earth, the universe and everything in it would fall into place like that has a very very probability. The examples of the eye are prime examples of what I am talking about. Each eye for each species is specifically made to suit that specific species. If there was anything different, then it would be worthless and ineffective. But each eye is fine tuned to the needs of each creature. So tell me about chaos then? Explain to me this theory of chaos and how it worked. Finally explain to me why intelligence is not valid science? When scientists get together, talk about different issues such as the fine tuning of cells and the mechanics that go into them and the machines that make them up, when they get together and talk of such things and all of them agree that there is no possible way that any of that could have evolved or formed from another living organism (biogenesis), if they get together and say things like that, why cannot that be an acceptable form of science? Why can't testing and examining something like cells and their parts, and come to the realization that there is absolutely no way that this was formed by chance...why can't that be an acceptable form of science? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jab2 Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 The examples of the eye are prime examples of what I am talking about. Each eye for each species is specifically made to suit that specific species. If there was anything different, then it would be worthless and ineffective. But each eye is fine tuned to the needs of each creature. Why is it that people think the eye as we know it today, should have developed spontaneous from nothing to a fully functional eye with all its sub-part? Do you realise that your skin is also an "eye", it being able to detect light in the IR region? It might help to read the following.The eye is too complex to have evolved. Evolution of the eye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Ok, so what is your theory of how the earth, this universe and all the planets, how they were formed? What does this have to do with evolution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahmabeliever Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Ok. Lets start off with probability. What is the probability that something as complex as the earth could have just formed out of nothing? That is a number that I don't believe anyone has found. :eek: What is the probability of God just appearing out of nothing and being so all powerful he made the universe for kicks. Who made God? Did God evolve? Turtles, all the way down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 So lets talk a little about this argument of creation or intelligence vs. evolution. It's a pointless argument. Evolution IS NOT a theory of the origin of life, it is about the adaptation and mutation of life that results in new species. It makes no predictions of where or how life began. Intelligent design, creation by another name, is about the origin of life, not the adaptation and/or mutation of species. The two are not competing theories, nor are they mutually exclusive, i.e. the proof or disproof of either does not support or refute the other. The attack on evolution does reveal something about the character of those that believe in creation vs evolution though. They have a poor understanding of what evolution actually is and because of that they think that casting doubt on evolution somehow bolsters their theory of creation. The fact is that they could completely disprove evolution and it would provide zero support for creation as a valid alternative since its not an alternative at all. They would do well to quit trying to attack evolution, learn some science and try to actually put forth some measurable, testable evidence of their creation theory. Until then they are arguing with nothing more than faith, the same mentality children use as proof of Santa Clause. Perhaps they will learn someday that faith is an obstacle to the pursuit of truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 It's a pointless argument. Evolution IS NOT a theory of the origin of life, it is about the adaptation and mutation of life that results in new species. It makes no predictions of where or how life began. Intelligent design, creation by another name, is about the origin of life, not the adaptation and/or mutation of species. The two are not competing theories, nor are they mutually exclusive, i.e. the proof or disproof of either does not support or refute the other. The attack on evolution does reveal something about the character of those that believe in creation vs evolution though. They have a poor understanding of what evolution actually is and because of that they think that casting doubt on evolution somehow bolsters their theory of creation. The fact is that they could completely disprove evolution and it would provide zero support for creation as a valid alternative since its not an alternative at all. They would do well to quit trying to attack evolution, learn some science and try to actually put forth some measurable, testable evidence of their creation theory. Until then they are arguing with nothing more than faith, the same mentality children use as proof of Santa Clause. Perhaps they will learn someday that faith is an obstacle to the pursuit of truth. :eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snydley Posted April 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 they are arguing with nothing more than faith, the same mentality children use as proof of Santa Clause. Perhaps they will learn someday that faith is an obstacle to the pursuit of truth. Does not any other theory of how the earth was created require some sort of faith in something? I claim that I have faith in a God that created the earth and everything in it, I do realize that there is faith involved in that statement, but is there not also faith in the statement that the earth was formed from a combination of gases and other particles? Where did these things come from? I say that God has always been, that takes faith. But if you say that faith plays no role into the equation, then where did everything come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Does not any other theory of how the earth was created require some sort of faith in something? Your discussion ranges from cosmology through astrophysics to theology. There is very little biology in it, so maybe you meant to post this in the theology forum? Creationism is not a science and it does not belong in the biology forum. I claim that I have faith in a God that created the earth and everything in it, I do realize that there is faith involved in that statement, but is there not also faith in the statement that the earth was formed from a combination of gases and other particles? Well, so what? The main difference would be that we can observe planets being formed around other stars. As far as I know there is no evidence of any new gods being formed outside of any universes? :xparty: Where did these things come from? I say that God has always been, that takes faith. But if you say that faith plays no role into the equation, then where did everything come from? How does faith ever *cause* something? What role do you assign to faith in the "equation"? (Which equation, by the way? The card house?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Moving this to theology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Does not any other theory of how the earth was created require some sort of faith in something? I claim that I have faith in a God that created the earth and everything in it, I do realize that there is faith involved in that statement, but is there not also faith in the statement that the earth was formed from a combination of gases and other particles? Where did these things come from? I say that God has always been, that takes faith. But if you say that faith plays no role into the equation, then where did everything come from? You are equivocating. Having faith that the airplane will not crash or that gravity will make the rock I throw hit the ground is not the same as faith that a purple unicorn shat everything into existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 How does faith ever *cause* something? Well, there's always stonings, burning at the stake, wars, genital mutulation, and countless others which seem to be the direct result of faith... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Does not any other theory of how the earth was created require some sort of faith in something? I claim that I have faith in a God that created the earth and everything in it, I do realize that there is faith involved in that statement, but is there not also faith in the statement that the earth was formed from a combination of gases and other particles? Where did these things come from? I say that God has always been, that takes faith. But if you say that faith plays no role into the equation, then where did everything come from? First of all, Darwin's theory of evolution IS NOT a theory about how the Earth or the Universe formed. It is simply about the mutation of species as a result of natural selection. It has absolutely nothing to do with cosmology. As for those that believe some event like the Big Bang lead to the development of our Universe and the Earth as we know it, they have a solid body of scientific evidence that is observable, measurable and testable to suggest the theory matches our observations. It is just a theory though, it is not the Law of the Big Bang. Belief that it could be responsible for the Universe does not rest on faith alone but instead on the observable evidence. Even today we can observe the birth of stars and know for a fact that they form as matter coalesces and condenses as a result of gravity. The God and creation theories have no observable or testable evidence to support them. They are only supported by faith which in and of itself is not evidence of anything. You could have all the faith in the world that there is a Leprechaun sitting in a chair orbiting Neptune and it would not make it true. If you wanted to prove it was true you would have to set your faith aside and observe Neptune directly and hunt for the Leprechaun. You could try to design tests to test for the presence of things orbiting Neptune and you could refine your tests to try and narrow down exactly what types of things were in orbit around Neptune. In the end you should be able to produce physical, reproducible evidence of the Leprechaun in order to persuade others to believe as you do without asking them to simply believe because of faith. Faith is a tricky thing. Sometimes it is effectively unquestionable. I have faith that the Earth's gravity will keep me from drifting into space. My faith in gravity is based on my lifetime experience in gravity. At other times it is ridiculous. Someone gets hit on the head with an acorn and all of the sudden they have faith that the sky is falling. For them, faith is a mental disorder that prevents them from seeing the truth. Now, you have told us that you believe in a creator and creation. What evidence can you offer to support that belief? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted April 16, 2008 Report Share Posted April 16, 2008 Faith is a tricky thing. Sometimes it is effectively unquestionable. I have faith that the Earth's gravity will keep me from drifting into space. My faith in gravity is based on my lifetime experience in gravity. At other times it is ridiculous. Someone gets hit on the head with an acorn and all of the sudden they have faith that the sky is falling. For them, faith is a mental disorder that prevents them from seeing the truth. Now, you have told us that you believe in a creator and creation. What evidence can you offer to support that belief? I have always had trouble understanding why people use faith when referring to the historical, this makes no sense, in that we have records to study and debate about what did happen and what did not, and why. Faith to me means looking forward and picking a path to an unformed future and haveing hope that knowledge will triumph over ignorance. Good men will triumph over the bad, the world become better, because the good men do have more power than the evil men do. My life will get better if I do good. Believing this way even when historically you know bad can still happen. This is what gives faith its power. So many religions have perverted faith into the world will end in fire and if you don't believe in the bible as history and god of supernatural stories you have no faith. Bullshit. The church is not about faith, its about fear. Except mine of course.:hihi: :xparty: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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