V-22 Osprey being put into action!?!?!

[Theory5]

Hello. A little while ago I received a neighbors magazine in my mailbox. I was about to return it when I saw the cover. (Yes, I did return the magazine) It said that they were putting the V-22 Osprey into action in Iraq! Now some of you might know something about this plane but for those of you who don't, let me tell you what i know. The V-22 Osprey was designed as a fixed wing VTOL craft. It was made to take off and land from such ships a destroyers and other places that can only be accessed by Helicopters or other VTOL craft. Instead of being a fighter plane, it was made to carry people and cargo. It has a rear hatch and a few other doors. It has a mounted machine gun, upgraded from a 30 cal. to a 50 cal. for operation in Iraq. But there are a few other things about this craft. Last I heard that it is dangerous and the tests flights were mostly failures, and killed many people (also causing lawsuits). Its warning system isn't very good and it cant land in certain conditions. Thus the V-22 Osprey was taken out of service (or they stopped testing it, i forget) and put away. Now, they are bringing it back out and are going to use it in Iraq! I presume that decision was made because the government is losing money in the war.

Please contribute (and/or correct my facts) about this plane and what they are going to do with it. Personally I think it shouldn't be used until they actually take some time (and money) to correct all the mistakes and make it much safer than it is now, because a better warning system and 50 cal. machine gun wont make it much safer.

-THeory

[Buffy]

There are plenty of people who think that the basic design is fundamentally flawed, and would come under the rubric of Ralph Nader's "Unsafe at any Speed." The Marines of course insist that all of these issues have been "addressed."

 

The more cynical would see this as an attempt to lower the percentage of troops killed in Iraq due to IEDs....

 

Conceal a flaw, and the world will imagine the worst, :)

Buffy

[Pyrotex]

Theo,

your facts seem to be in order. The Osprey was originally going to have nose mounted cannons for suppressing ground fire (makes landings a lot safer) but the vehicle was already over its weight limit, and so the cannon went away. The machine gun in the rear was an after-thought to appease some of its critics.

 

The Osprey's downdraft is a hurricane. Troops can't just open the door and jump out at the moment of landing (like with other even bigger helicopters) or they would be blown over. A failure on either engine during flight means a crash. The Osprey cannot "glide" on one engine like planes, or make an auto-rotate landing like helicopters. So, the two engines are lashed together with a looooooong (and heavy!) common axle so that one engine can keep both rotors turning at about 2/3 speed. A fully loaded vehicle would still probably crash. This heavy axle is the main cause for much of the overweight problems of the Osprey.

 

If the engine-rotate mechanisms jam anywhere between "level flight" and "helicopter mode", a crash is inevitable.

 

Badly flawed design. :)

[Tolouse]

i was on a ship that was built to carry these. we actually seen one land on the ship, as a test and being the first one to land on my ship. it was pretty impressive. and just to imagine the bill of building one of these is even more impressive.

 

i've also heard that they can be dangerous. that is why my ship never actually had one deploy with us. there were to many accidents to even consider taking these out into the field. but i have also noticed that lately, they have been taking off from the air field much more frequently than they used to. in fact, i seen 2 of them take off at the same time just the other day. is this what they have been working up to?

[CraigD]

Please contribute (and/or correct my facts) about this plane and what they are going to do with it. Personally I think it shouldn't be used until they actually take some time (and money) to correct all the mistakes and make it much safer than it is now, because a better warning system and 50 cal. machine gun wont make it much safer.

Regardless of whether 7.62 mm, .50 cal, or even 20 mm guns are mounted, the major problem I can see with the V-22’s arrangement is that they’re fired out the open rear landing ramp. For the sort of defensive role for which its guns are intended, a gun that can only shoot where the pilot can’t see seems terribly ackward, requiring that a pilot maneuver to face away from a threat to bring the guns to bear, and the gunner to quickly acquire a target that only the pilots have yet seen. No matter what sort of advanced video or gun controls are used, I can’t imagine that the arrangement will work well.

The Osprey was originally going to have nose mounted cannons for suppressing ground fire (makes landings a lot safer) but the vehicle was already over its weight limit, and so the cannon went away. The machine gun in the rear was an after-thought to appease some of its critics.

According to various sources, including the wikipedia article, a turrent mounted .50 cal minigun was planned for the V-22, then cancelled. This seems to me a bad decision, as this sort of gun system masses only a few hundred kg, and would address the awkwardness issues I describe above.

The Osprey's downdraft is a hurricane. Troops can't just open the door and jump out at the moment of landing (like with other even bigger helicopters) or they would be blown over. A failure on either engine during flight means a crash. The Osprey cannot "glide" on one engine like planes, or make an auto-rotate landing like helicopters. So, the two engines are lashed together with a looooooong (and heavy!) common axle so that one engine can keep both rotors turning at about 2/3 speed. A fully loaded vehicle would still probably crash. This heavy axle is the main cause for much of the overweight problems of the Osprey.

Most of these issues are, I think, myths. Though the Osprey does have very heavy disk loading – about 100 kg/m^2 vs 20-30 for a typical heavy helicopter – which leads to a proportionally greater downblast, the entrance ramp is well aft of the rotors. I’ve seen troops enter end exit an Osprey during an exhibition of a touch-and-go maneuver, with no sign of being blown over.

 

According to at least one Osprey proponent and pilot, the Osprey can glide to a fixed-wing-mode, horizontal landing with no power – though not if it looses power below about 500 m while in helicopter-mode. Though not to downplay it safety issues – in at least one of the 3 fatal Osprey accidents to date, failure in the transmission intended to provide power to both rotors caused it to become completely uncontrollable – I’ve seen no strong evidence that the Osprey is more vulnerable to natural and hostile ground threats than a conventional helicopter, and some that it’s less.

 

Though at 27 tons max weight vs. 11 for the CH-46 it was designed to replace, the V-22’s payload, including fuel, is 12 tons vs. the CH-46’s 4. Though more overweight than hoped for (nearly every aircraft designed has suffered from this), the V-22 still has a lot payload.

 

For all it’s design flaws, the V-22 realizes the advantages of a tilt wing over a helicopter or fixed wing aircraft, having VTOL/STOL capability with roughly twice the speed, ceiling, and range of a similar helicopter.

 

It’s unfortunate, I think, for the future of all swingwing design, that the Osprey has so sullied the reputation of the basic design concept.

 

This 9/26/07 Time article has lots of information on the V-22 ’s safety and firepower issues, and its recent combat deployment.

[Pyrotex]

Thanks for the correction on the force of the downdraft. You're right, the folks in/ex-gressing out the back ramp should be okay. It's the deck personnel on the carrier that are at risk, because they're in front and to either side of the cockpit. [woops]

 

True, the idea has merit. But... The basic design has more inherent risk than an ordinary helicopter or an ordinary STOL aircraft. Sometimes hybrids carry the worst of both parents, rather than the best.

[freeztar]

I just saw an article about this. The military is claiming that the Osprey has redeemed itself and is proving to be an effective means of troop transport in Iraq.

 

Maligned aircraft finds redemption in Iraq, military says - CNN.com