Atheism - theism

[RiverRat]

I’ll admit that I’ve had little experience with atheism.

 

1. College Art professor (rumored to have been demoted from the mathematics dept) rambled on about how God did not exist because of a reoccurring dream he had about a complex math equation.

 

2. An I.T. worker who was obsessed with binary code and had frequent conversations with himself. His contention was … “It does not compute” in his best robotic voice.

 

It is refreshing to engage rational individuals in a seemingly irrational debate. It seems (however coincidental) that atheist and theists may in essence be ‘hard wired’ in different manners. No matter what is presented (even with Mother T being placed on a lower moral plane than Tse-tung – thanks free thinker ;) ), I simply can not cognitively comprehend an atheist POV.

 

Am I being cheated? Am I really weak minded?

 

On the flip side, no matter what is presented to an atheist they can not cognitively comprehend a theist POV.

 

Are you being cheated? Are you really narrow minded?

 

May this be similar to a certain individual being a math whiz and another being athletic or yet another being artistic?

 

I am not a genius but I am fortunate to be able to assimilate new information and ideas. However …. I’m very poor at math above basic college calculus. May this be the reason I will never ‘get it’?

 

Flame suit activated

[Freethinker]

Oh boy, are we gonna get in trouble! I can only guess where this thread may wind up. So I better get what I can in right now! After all I am Officially THE resident Atheist. :-)

 

So much to cover, where to start.

 

First is there a thought process difference? While I have actually read articles stating usch, with examples and data (I will try to find for you, I know some in either/ and Free Inquiry and Skeptical Inquirer mags), I have to wonder.

 

In the early stages of my life, till approx 12-13, I was a Catholic and amoung my friends considered one of the more reverant. I would say I had "religious expereinces" at both my first Confession and Communion. I now understand the psych/physiology behind it, but it left it's impressions and motivations at the time.

 

So am I two different people? Was there a physiological change to my neural net? Reprogramming to my wetware? Did I become an Atheist because of a physiological change at some instant in time? Or am I just predisposed to taking extreme positions no matter which position? But that is a different question. Was my "deconversion" CAUSED by a physiological change? Or, as I prefer to remember it (quite vividly) the access to new information and ideas which precipitated the change?

 

But I have struggled with the same issue for a long time. It will be interesting to see what we find.

[Freethinker]

I’ll admit that I’ve had little experience with atheism.

A cute story that also provides a good working defintion.

 

I was the Host of an Atheist gathering through Meetup. We chose a local coffee shop. I was there early and grabbed a large table and put a Meetup sign out that I had printed announcing it was an Atheist Meetup. One of the workers stopped by to make sure I was not grabbing more space than justifyable I guess. As it was a local indepedant coffee shop, he looked the part. Slightly punked. He commented that he had not talked to any Atheists for quite a while that he could remember. And is often the case once they find it safe, he admitted that he didn't really believe "that god stuff". So I asked him: "So you do not have a belief in a personal/ Christian type god?"

 

He said "no".

 

"So you are basically a non-believer?"

 

"Yes I guess so" he said

 

"Did you know that people that believe in a personal god as Christians do, are called Theists?" I asked.

 

Yes he had heard that and understood the term. So I said:

 

"That would make you, as a non-believer in a personal god, a NON-theist."

 

Yes he agreed that would then be the case. So I hit him with:

 

"So you are a NON-thest, an *A*-theist?"

 

A smile came across his face. "I never thought of it that way!"

 

"So if you have talked to yourself lately, you have been talking to an Atheist all along?" I asked.

 

I guess you can guess the rest.

 

So when you claim to not have much experience with Atheism and give examples of a small number of "Atheists" you have been specifically AWARE of, al you are saying is that you really have no idea how many and whom in actuallity. And they themselves may not even be aware of it as they also misunderstood the very simple meaning of the word "Atheism"

 

ALL it means is "NOT a Theist". It merely designates a LACK of a Theistic belief. It has no artifical requirement for a POSITIVE acceptance of the complete lack of the possibility of any god type entity. That it emotional bagage added by Theists that wish to denegrade the term to the point that people will not allow acceptance of it.

 

Another example is Asymmetric. It is never used to claim that the object hates symmetry. It merely means that it LACKS symmetry. It is NOT symmetrical. That is all.

[RiverRat]

I did not mean to imply that because I have never came across a large number of 'atheists' that would therefore mean people with similar thought processes are limited.

 

I was mearly admitting in a round about way that I have not been exposed to the atheist mindset and I am having difficulty grasping the concept. ;)

[RiverRat]

Myself … I was raised a Lutheran… Sunday school and the whole nine yards. I really did not grasp the concept of religion entirely. I just had a ‘sense’ of the larger picture.

 

When I was 16 I had a life changing experience.

 

My Father died … (that is not so odd … people die daily)

Except … I was miles removed physically but yet had an eerie sense, an inexplicable sinking feeling, and an irrational urge to ‘go home’. I was so moved by this feeling that I hitched a ride from where I was to where I was dropped off and then RAN another 1.5 miles to my house. Sure enough … there was my Father alone… ‘expired’ on his bed. I stood there in such disbelief that I convinced myself that he was only ‘sleeping’ and the crazy ‘feeling’ I had about this was unreal. I made some lunch, took a shower and watched a bit of TV. The ‘feeling’ rushed over me again. I walked up to the bedroom again and verified the inevitable.

 

My Father had no prior health issues and died of an aortic occlusion.

 

Needless to say this still weighs heavily on me to this day. There is no worldly explanation. TO ME there was no anecdotal explanation – it was REAL.

 

Over the years I came across other situations people experienced (too lengthy to go into here). I also sorta/kinda researched other ‘mystical’ events (ie… NDE’s,). However anecdotal each situation may have been separate from each other – it still was REAL to the individuals involved. TO ME … when something can not be explained in simple terms and must be reduced to the ridiculous to be rationalized away, one is left with what??

[pgrmdave]

I think that part of the problem is that atheism is cognitive, and logical, and theism is emotional, and felt. I've been both, and I know that it is impossible to prove to an atheist that there is a god, and impossible to prove to a theist that there isn't.

[sanctus]

RiverRat you don't have to believe in any kind of god to be able to believe in telepathy. You can simply tell yourself that it will be surely one day scientifically explicable and until then you just believe it is possible, without claiming that you can proof its existence to anybody but yourself.

I had a similar experience (a much more nice one tough) therefore I also believe it is possible even if the explanation of this phenomena isn't there yet.

[Freethinker]

I did not mean to imply that because I have never came across a large number of 'atheists' that would therefore mean people with similar thought processes are limited.

You missed my point. What I was trying to get across was that you have no idea of how many "Atheists" you have come across. You assume that it was only the couple that outwardlyt announced. The ones with pecularities that are very open and vocal about it.

 

Can you give me a count of how many gays you have come across? Can you say with certainty that you know for a fact whether each person you meet is gay or not? Or would a similar, "he made a point out of being gay" be your criteria for KNOWING when you have come across one?

 

And along that same line, how many people have you come across that themselves have not "realized" they are gay? Or just would never acknowledge it?

 

Even I find myself in situations where I do not agressivly acknowledge my Athiesm! Yes ME!

I was mearly admitting in a round about way that I have not been exposed to the atheist mindset and I am having difficulty grasping the concept. ;)

Perhaps you are overestimating how dramatically different the "Atheist mindset" would be. Not all of us are as bad as me! :-)

[Freethinker]

I think that part of the problem is that atheism is cognitive, and logical, and theism is emotional, and felt. I've been both, and I know that it is impossible to prove to an atheist that there is a god, and impossible to prove to a theist that there isn't.

It is completely false to claim that you can not prove a god to an Atheist. Just because no one has been able to come up with ANY valid proof for a god does not mean that if one existed it could not be proved. It's a cop out!

 

What you are really saying is that basd on a complete lack of valid proof, an Atheist will accept the lack of proof and acknowledge it as such. While the Theist will claim there is proof anyway and refuse to acknowledge the lack.

 

Perhaps the most telling in all of this is that if you move the discussion to "other" god myths, they will both reach the same conclussion. e.g. take a Christian and an Atheist and disucss the existence of the Wiccan Mother Goddess. Both the Christian and the Atheist will use the same logic and lack of proof as "reason" to not accept.

 

It is always a matter of where the individual will draw the arbitrary line in the sand. The Atheist will use the same approach every time. Consistancy! While the Theist will use one logic for EVERYTHING BUT, and then draw their imaginary line to allow them to stop from using that same logic one more time!

 

Both of us will reject any of the thousands of god myths there have been and for the same "reasons". I just don't make one exception.

[geko]

TO ME … when something can not be explained in simple terms and must be reduced to the ridiculous to be rationalized away, one is left with what??

 

Im wondering what the 'simple terms' are? Are they anything mystical? If so these are not simple terms.

[IrishEyes]

GEKO-

go, right now, to the watercooler, and add that beautiful signature of yours to the old thread that discusses signatures. Right now, geko, before you decide it reveals too much of you and you change it. i'm not kiding one little bit. and then, when you've properly documented your own signature, please take the time to write something nearly as eloquent for me!

 

Freethinker, i like that saying you use... "I just don't make one exception." kinda cute, that one. I know, you've used it for a while. i just don't think i've told you before that i like it...

[Tormod]

On the flip side, no matter what is presented to an atheist they can not cognitively comprehend a theist POV.

 

I think this is oversimplification. As an atheist I have no problems seeing the POV of a theist. I have firends who are dedicated Christians, and I've also studied with several who were deeply religious. We had lots of good talks and I felt that there was a mutual respect for each other's convictions.

 

I might agree that an atheist might never fully appreciate the sense of deep faith that certain religious people experience, although I question whether most religious people ACTUALLY reach a high sense of spirituality within. I know I have had lots of "special" moments - one particular moment which I remember was when I was in St Peter's in the Vatican. It was a marvellous sight and it was hard not to be both stunned and impressed. I admit to feeling a sense of longing for faith. But being a rational atheist I attribute this more to the sense of awe than to the spiritualism of the place (meaning no disrespect).

 

I also think religious people should try to understand more of what it means to be an atheist. To claim that it is just another belief is plain wrong. Atheism is very often not a chosen POV. For me it is something I have always had. I can safely confess that I have never ever had any faith in any religion. It would be nice to see religous people understand that that is possible.

[RiverRat]

Im wondering what the 'simple terms' are? Are they anything mystical? If so these are not simple terms.

 

Simple terms to me is quite to the contrary of 'mystical'

 

I suppose if there is no logical explaination ... then what I'm left with is that pesky 'flying pink unicorn'. Errrr... I can't seem to comprehend what law of pyhsics or other natural phenomenon would have enabled my experience to occur.

[Freethinker]

RiverRat you don't have to believe in any kind of god to be able to believe in telepathy.

Good call. Yes we need to realize that "Duality" is a seperate issue. The "mind" as something more than just the "brain", the metaphysical existence of a "self" does not require, much less prove, a god.

You can simply tell yourself that it will be surely one day scientifically explicable and until then you just believe it is possible, without claiming that you can proof its existence to anybody but yourself.

I had a similar experience (a much more nice one tough) therefore I also believe it is possible even if the explanation of this phenomena isn't there yet.

I have also had expereinces which the rest of you would label as "religious". And have discussed ones my family have had.

 

I have also read a fair amount about what we are learning about how the brain works. How it processes memories. How easily it is fooled when trying to reconstruct memories. Study after study after study. They ALL show the same thing. Over and over. The human mind is not a reliable source of historical data. Especially one's own.

 

Perhaps an example to explore. I'm always willing to donate to the cause.

 

I have had 3 "near brushes with death". Struck by lightning, car crash and.

 

A friend and I were at a motor vehicle sporting event. "Dirt" track that you could walk right up to the top of the banked turn, a snow fence, and watch the action. We were standing right in front, at the fence. After a while turned and had to push our way thru a tight crowd to get out. Two other guys pushed their way into the small gap we left at the fence. Just as we were breaking free at the back of the crowd, we heard a loud noise and screams. One of the vehicles missed the turn and smashed thru the fence killing the two guys that had just taken our place. I did not know about the deaths till the paper came out the next day. We just new something happened right where we had been and walked away not thinking more about it. I recognized the guy's pictures in the paper the next day.

 

As far as I am concerned this really happened. I was there and experienced it all. How could I possibly forget it. It was a contiuous memory I recall regulary and thus reinforce it's vividness. Like where I was when Kennedy was shot. This was over 30 years ago. I can still visualize images of the scene.

 

A few years ago I ran into this friend again. We wound up stopping at the same coffee shop in the morning. Now we've been having coffee together for almost a year every couple of days. So we have covered a lot of old ground recalling the old days. He does not seem to remember the event. He remembers our going to the event, but not any other details.

 

Which is the reality?

[Freethinker]

GEKO-

go, right now, to the watercooler, and add that beautiful signature of yours to the old thread that discusses signatures.

Yep, I agree. In fact I just copied it and e-mailed it to myself. Best way to capture something like that.

 

Do I have your permission to quote it, with an attribution to you, Geko?

Freethinker, i like that saying you use... "I just don't make one exception." kinda cute, that one. I know, you've used it for a while. i just don't think i've told you before that i like it...

Wish I could claim credit.

[lindagarrette]

I also think religious people should try to understand more of what it means to be an atheist. To claim that it is just another belief is plain wrong. Atheism is very often not a chosen POV. For me it is something I have always had. I can safely confess that I have never ever had any faith in any religion. It would be nice to see religous people understand that that is possible.

Very well said, Tormod. Some people I know were once religious but gradually dropped their beliefs after becoming better educated and thinking logically. You can't believe something you don't believe. There's so much about most theology that is only fantasy or speculation, that's how athiests see it. To convince an athiest to believe in God would probably take a frontal lobotomy.

[Stargazer]

Very well said, Tormod. Some people I know were once religious but gradually dropped their beliefs after becoming better educated and thinking logically. You can't believe something you don't believe. There's so much about most theology that is only fantasy or speculation, that's how athiests see it. To convince an athiest to believe in God would probably take a frontal lobotomy.

Yes I would have to give up honesty, for example. It's impossible to tell myself that something is true if I know it's illogical, unsupported or false.