Hypography X Prize Entry

[freeztar]

I'm interested in your rover idea, Bill. How do you visualize them? I know you've mentioned RC cars, but obviously the rovers would have to be much more robust than that. What size do you envision the rovers? I suppose the smaller they are, the more that can be deployed. Perhaps various sized rovers for particular purposes would be ideal. A fleet of small (grapefruit-sized) rovers could head out in all directions and have a simple B&W video camera to relay "on the ground" info. A couple medium sized rovers (watermelon-sized) could carry the more delicate instruments and sensors and move at a slower pace, collecting data as they go. They could also act as mobile relay hubs for the far-traveling mini-rovers. For the single, large sized rover, it could be the base station. It would remain stationary, but would still have the capability to become mobile, if necessary.

[TheBigDog]

The cars need to be rugged in terms of needing to operate in the daylight of the moon, and survive the cold moon night. They would be equipped with a couple of cameras. Call it three. Two would be low resolution for navigating by sight and such, not much more than very low power Quickcams. The third would be a very capable unit like the digital camera I got my wife. It would be able to take panoramic shots, telephoto shots, and even extreme close up shots. This would be on the end of an articulating arm. The articulating arm would also have the recharge point that would mate with the lander. If the rover flips onto its back it would still be on its four wheels. The arm would rotate around the chassis to the new "top". When in motion on dangerous terrain the arm would be retracted to prevent chance of damage. It is battery powered, and is essentially a huge battery pack on wheels. It would run at the speed we determine as optimum for range within battery life and preventing kicking up too much dust.

 

The arm would be able to extend up to give a higher view from the surface and photograph the tops of larger boulders. A typical mission of the rover might be to move to a boulder field, take detailed close up photos of the rocks found there in multiple spectrum and then return too the lander for recharging. The mission capability would be to cover a five kilometer radius around the lander. With enough time we could detail survey every rock in that area. The data from the rovers is relayed to the lander by wireless which acts as a server and router for sending data back to earth.

 

The rovers are going to be small. We figure the battery power needed for the mission spec, multiply by two for over design, and build from that. The optics and moving parts are protected by the wheels, which dominate the vehicle. If it rolled out of control down a crater wall the wheels would absorb the energy and it would eventually come to rest at which point it would get its bearings and maneuver to right itself. Once righted it would navigate its way back to the lander. As long as one of the cameras survived the tumble we could get bearings on our location (from the track in the dust if nothing else) and work our way back. Very worst case is that a rover runs out of battery without getting back to the lander. Another rover could go out and tow it back to where it would be recharged.

 

I envision using the photography from the missions to build a virtual map of the area around the lander that would eventually allow the lander to self navigate the rovers by use of the virtual world it creates, like a blind person remembering where the furniture in the room is. The lander itself could have a triangulation locater for the rovers. With multiple antenna on the lander all in communication with the rover, the delay in communications with each antenna could be measured to get a ballpark location of each lander in communication. Within a meter would be fine for most purposes.

 

If we wanted to have sensors on the rovers or landers that is possible too, but I would be happy with just the cameras. With proper spectral analysis we can verify many things.

 

The best part is that you contract with a toy manufacturer for the engineering and manufacture of the rovers. The ones we launch are made of special materials and optimized for 1/6 G, but you would be able to buy your own and control them just like we do through the landers. A person could own and operate a moon rover for fun. That might be all we need to do to pay for the engineering and build of the real units. Imagine taking your rover to a flower garden and via your laptop computer navigating it and taking photos of all the flowers and such. I think it would be really cool, and it would be par of how we test the thing.

 

Bill

[TheBigDog]

As long as landers are spaced at a ten kilometer interval you could have rovers moving freely between them. Specialized rovers would simply need to be dropped into the zone with charged batteries and then be put to work. Work stations could be put on the landers for different scientific equipment if you wanted to do more than measure visually.

 

Imagine a series of landers allowing detailed exploration of thousands of square kilometers of the moon! Even a single lander would allow exploration of a 78.5 square kilometer area of the moon given the 5K radius spec. Cool!

 

Bill

[freeztar]

The cars need to be rugged in terms of needing to operate in the daylight of the moon, and survive the cold moon night. They would be equipped with a couple of cameras. Call it three. Two would be low resolution for navigating by sight and such, not much more than very low power Quickcams. The third would be a very capable unit like the digital camera I got my wife. It would be able to take panoramic shots, telephoto shots, and even extreme close up shots. This would be on the end of an articulating arm. The articulating arm would also have the recharge point that would mate with the lander. If the rover flips onto its back it would still be on its four wheels. The arm would rotate around the chassis to the new "top".

 

Perhaps a bit too complex. :hihi:

Moving parts are the number one target of failure on the Moon, or any other extraterrestrial region I'd imagine.

When in motion on dangerous terrain the arm would be retracted to prevent chance of damage.

 

The retractable arm will require a reliable motor. Motors are heavy.

 

It is battery powered, and is essentially a huge battery pack on wheels. It would run at the speed we determine as optimum for range within battery life and preventing kicking up too much dust.

 

Battery tech seems to be on a cusp of expansion, too bad the timing is slightly off, economically.

 

The arm would be able to extend up to give a higher view from the surface and photograph the tops of larger boulders. A typical mission of the rover might be to move to a boulder field, take detailed close up photos of the rocks found there in multiple spectrum and then return too the lander for recharging. The mission capability would be to cover a five kilometer radius around the lander. With enough time we could detail survey every rock in that area. The data from the rovers is relayed to the lander by wireless which acts as a server and router for sending data back to earth.

 

That sounds great.

 

The rovers are going to be small. We figure the battery power needed for the mission spec, multiply by two for over design, and build from that. The optics and moving parts are protected by the wheels, which dominate the vehicle. If it rolled out of control down a crater wall the wheels would absorb the energy and it would eventually come to rest at which point it would get its bearings and maneuver to right itself. Once righted it would navigate its way back to the lander. As long as one of the cameras survived the tumble we could get bearings on our location (from the track in the dust if nothing else) and work our way back. Very worst case is that a rover runs out of battery without getting back to the lander. Another rover could go out and tow it back to where it would be recharged.

 

Or we could circumvent that whole catastrophe and equip each rover with solar panels. They are relatively inexpensive, light, fairly reliable, and used on almost every machine we send into space.

 

I envision using the photography from the missions to build a virtual map of the area around the lander that would eventually allow the lander to self navigate the rovers by use of the virtual world it creates, like a blind person remembering where the furniture in the room is. The lander itself could have a triangulation locater for the rovers. With multiple antenna on the lander all in communication with the rover, the delay in communications with each antenna could be measured to get a ballpark location of each lander in communication. Within a meter would be fine for most purposes.

 

Very cool idea!!! 8)

 

If we wanted to have sensors on the rovers or landers that is possible too, but I would be happy with just the cameras. With proper spectral analysis we can verify many things.

 

This is a later phase decision imho, where costs and weight become critical.

The best part is that you contract with a toy manufacturer for the engineering and manufacture of the rovers.

 

As long as it is not China. :( [sorry, offtopic]

 

The ones we launch are made of special materials and optimized for 1/6 G, but you would be able to buy your own and control them just like we do through the landers. A person could own and operate a moon rover for fun. That might be all we need to do to pay for the engineering and build of the real units. Imagine taking your rover to a flower garden and via your laptop computer navigating it and taking photos of all the flowers and such. I think it would be really cool, and it would be par of how we test the thing.

 

Another great idea! The experiment could fund itself. Brilliant! :hihi:

[TheBigDog]

The idea of having solar panels is appealing. The problem is that once dusty they might prove difficult to clean and the performance degrades. It also limits your ability to explore when you have to protect the solar cells from damage. I want rovers that are not afraid to get dirty and work hard. Even so, equipping them will even a small solar array would allow them to slowly recharge if they got out of range.

 

Gahd, in reference to line of sight, I am not an expert on radio communications (I know a couple and I am working on getting one to join us), but I understand there is some wiggle room. Line of sight is not absolute. But a possible solution is to use the rovers as teams. Send two rovers out together. One parks on top of a hill where it can act as a relay to the other rover which explores the far side of the hill out of sight. Alternatively a rover could tow or carry a couple of relay access points, leaving them as needed along the way. Then collect them on the way back, or leave them for continued use. Hell, if the power needs of a radio link were low enough they might have just a small battery and a deployable solar array for unlimited operation in the daytime.

 

Bill

[freeztar]

The idea of having solar panels is appealing. The problem is that once dusty they might prove difficult to clean and the performance degrades.

 

Forget cleaning, they are backup power first and foremost (assuming the battery idea).

 

The rovers need to be designed with the Moon's gravity AND dust conditions in mind.

 

Optimal rover speed will also need to be determined based on the mass and shape of the rover. I imagine a design much different than Earth-based RC cars. Perhaps something more "retro" is fitting for the circumstances. (Apollo I anyone?)

[Roadam]

Hello everyone, nice discussion you have here, so I decided to make an imput.

 

There has been some experimentation with transfering electricity trough the air with inductance, as I know even Tesla had some prototipes. Although the transfer is not very efficient it eliminates dust hazzard for refilling rovers. It may be simply a pad onto which rover drives and it gest its juice.

[Pyrotex]

...There has been some experimentation with transfering electricity trough the air with inductance...

Actually, the transmission of power through air or vaccuum can be done with very high efficiency, approaching 97%, maybe more. The technique relies on beaming the power with a microwave maser and receiving the power with an antenna array with elements half the size as the maser wavelength.

 

The trouble is, your antenna array can be quite small if you're working over distances of miles or tens of miles. At thousands of miles, the array gets unworkably large unless you own real estate in Nevada.

 

At the distance to the Moon, all bets are off.

[Theory5]

I like the ideas Theory5, but there is some method to my madness in wanting to recharge the rovers at the base. In a word, moondust.

 

The moon is covered with very fine, dust that gets into and onto everything. If you have solar panels on the rover it needs to protect them from this dusty menace. On mars the wind can be used to blow off the dust, but there is no wind on the moon. There is also the hazards associated with rolling over the rover. I like the idea of a rover that cannot be stopped. Over sized wheels so that even if it flips or flops it can still be driven. All of the electronics would be sealed inside to protect from the dust. Even recharging would be done by proximity, like a SoniCare toothbrush rather than with contacts. The lander would have the solar panels fixed up high, above any dust that would be kicked up by the slow rolling rovers. If done properly this could give you a reliable unit on the moon that might last for years. Multiple rovers give you more chance of success, and keeping them dirt simple and cheap is a big key. Hell, if the rovers eventually die off more could be sent to the proximity of the lander. You could even space out landers like gas stations, allowing rovers to move over great distances, as long as they can make it to the next lander for a recharge.

 

No matter what configuration you run you have the risk of communication failures. You want to avoid single points of failure that will kill the whole mission, but by the nature of things they cannot be completely eliminated (at least not as I have seen yet). Over design, proven technology and some designed redundancy will be the keys to success in budget.

 

I had thought about the hamster ball too. It is appealing, but dust is the problem with that one too. The outside would become coated in dust blocking any hope for getting electricity from light. But you still might be able to get electricity from heat! Hmmm...

 

Bill

Ooooh good thinking :(

So big wheels like one of those RC toys they show on commercials? the one that can flip over and still keep going?

 

I heard they were trying to make chargers that charge stuff from a distance but I thought that was still in production.... (I get all my tech news from pop sci and pop mech if you know a better magazine plz recommend it.)

[Theory5]

What about a giant rover? you say that they need to go back to their charging stations. what about one big rover, say the size of a small earth car , that can do everything (charge the little rovers take photos and such) instead of a stationary charging place.

 

someone spoke of an issue with moving parts. for the cameras they could be encased is some clear material (not glass) that allows the same visibility as glass so its like the camera is looking out of an observation bubble, and can look around and such.

[Kayra]

Let's keep in mind folks, that we should not be designing beyond the needs of the mission. No sense designing a system that can scout for 1,000's of Kilometers if it is not in the mission requirements.

 

Beamed power at range to recharge sounds like a fair option, assuming the microwave MASER is efficient itself, of a reasonably small mass, and can be powered from Solar panels (assisted by batteries if higher current is required). This opens up a possibility of beaming a power signal to any rover in LOS. If the right landing spot is chosen (inside a crater?), it may be possible to remotely recharge the units (given time) and drastically extend range or reduce battery size.

Pyrotex, why would the wavelength increase with range? You lost me on that one :(. Does the wavelength increase naturally over distance because of the properties of a microwave MASER, or do you have to use a larger wavelength for efficiency sake as distance increases? If it is the later, we can certainly entertain the idea of losing some efficiency in order to keep the antennae size down.

Hmm, it just occurred to me that the wavelength will not be changing (I was not sure how that was even possible:) ), but I bet the footprint of the beamed power will, requiring more half length antennae to recover the same amount of power... Does that sound right Pyro? If so, this is entirely doable if the MASER is not to massive.

 

If not...

A new discovery recently ( I will have to locate it) to do with tuned inductance between the transmitter and receiver is proving remarkable, not in efficiency of power transferred, but in conserving power of the transmitter (all unused power is recaptured from the EM field).

Close range only, but it fits the bill.

 

As to communication, the higher the frequency, the smaller the antennae required, but the more important the Line of Sight. Microwave is LOS dependant, but lower frequency radio becomes less and less so. Military have Ultra low frequency antennae farms that can transmit ground hugging signals around the globe. All you need is 2 antennae that are 80-120 meters long (grin). Not likely to suit our needs, but something in between might be. I doubt that communication over the distances we are talking about (between base and rover) will be much of an issue.

[TheBigDog]

Ooooh good thinking :(

So big wheels like one of those RC toys they show on commercials? the one that can flip over and still keep going?

 

I heard they were trying to make chargers that charge stuff from a distance but I thought that was still in production.... (I get all my tech news from pop sci and pop mech if you know a better magazine plz recommend it.)

The primary reason for small size is keeping the total mass low. I imagine the lander with rovers as it is making final approach to the moon is about the size of a large garbage can; 35-55 gallons, maybe a cubic meter. Once on the ground it opens up and unfolds the main solar arrays and antennas. System checks happen and communications with earth are established. Doors open at the base (folding down) allowing the rovers to exit. They are checked out one at a time and run through some system checks. We will have a checklist of missions to accomplish prior to landing, the same way that a football coach predetermines the first few plays of a game. As we discover things and deal with the reality of our hardware and software situations we will improvise our plan.

 

The primary objective is to win, make history, and score as many of the mission requirements as possible. The secondary objective is to make it last as long as possible and have ways of getting commercial payback from our efforts.

 

Bill

[Theory5]

The secondary objective is to make it last as long as possible and have ways of getting commercial payback from our efforts.

 

Bill

 

Just sell advertising space on the robots and the lander :-) some companies already do that, and people pay a pretty penny to advertise on stuff like that.

[TheBigDog]

Just sell advertising space on the robots and the lander :-) some companies already do that, and people pay a pretty penny to advertise on stuff like that.

That is partly how I would like to cover the cost of the whole operation.

 

Imagine this... we have a small group of functioning rovers on the moon. We have 78.5 square kilometers of space to play in and explore. We have accomplished all of the prize worthy mission objectives. Now what do we do? how about renting time on the rovers? How about doing things like using the rovers to write messages on the surface of the moon? For the right price we can do that. How about licensing fees for using our rovers in motion pictures? Who knows what possibilities exist? How about landing more advanced scientific equipment on a later mission that works in conjunction with the infrastructure of rovers and lander that we have established, and we collect a fee for that service? The immediate goal is the contest, but the payoff comes after that.

 

Bill

[Theory5]

writing stuff on the moon? how big? wont that ruin its surface? they would have to steer clear of the landing site from the other moon visits. I mean, the moon stays almost the same all the time. But that sounds like a great Idea. maybe we can bring back moon rocks for tests or somthing!

[TheBigDog]

You know what would be cool? A rover that burrowed. Exploring under the surface of the moon!

 

Bill

[Theory5]

that would be awsome!

but wouldnt that divert from what we are trying to do?