Priests/believers in the army?

[RiverRat]

“Yes, with the already overwhelming confusion over why the claimed all loving god allows such attrocities in the first place, why they are laying their dying, obviously ignored by their god”

 

Will this same line of reasoning include a simple scenario devoid of any moral or political connotation (ie… a golfer struck and killed by lightening or someone that slips and falls of a cliff to their death). It appears in the atheist view (if God existed) everyone would die of old age and there would millions of ‘miracle’ on a daily basis that saved people from an unnatural demise ?

 

“Logical? What is "logical" about intentionally including additional superstitious nonsense which is already primarily responsible for the cause behind their deaths?”

 

It appears that this statement stems from a belief that an overwhelming majority of soldiers do not believe in God. It would not be ‘superstitious nonsense’ to a believer. To the believer it is Gods will for their situation.

 

“And who are these people (priests, ministers) that are so extremely selfrighteous that they actually think they are in a position to FORGIVE these dying soldiers? Forgive them for what?”

 

Actually… The Priests are in a position to forgive (as describe by the holy sacrament). They are in essence a temporal representation of God. This is similar to the Catholic faith in terms of Communion. Catholics believe they are taking in the ACTUAL ‘body’ and ‘blood’ of Christ (not a simple reprensentation).

Forgive them for what … uhh … their Sins.

[RiverRat]

"Would there still be killing and violence when we finally rid the world of these antiquated ignorant supersitions? Most likely yes. But removing the largest single motivator and inspirational enhancer will dramatically reduce it. It would become the anomoly rather than the predominate method of interaction."

 

Can you back up that sweeeeeping generalization with an example. Please show me a paradigm where a Godless society flourished in your virtual Utopia.

 

Lets look at the US prison system (violent crimes only). Can you honestly say that if you polled each and ever prisoner that there reason for incarceration was directly attributed to God. In your view... in a Godless society... we could practically disband the prison system.

 

How many stories can be retold about the death row prisoners that 'found' God and repented. It is obvious that in a Godless society these people would not be stopped. In fact, if these death row inmates 'found' God earlier in their lives they may not have committed the crime in the first place.

[infamous]

Boy, the implications of this question. You do not specify your intent and I hate to assume. It brings up more question than answers.

 

1) how little do you actually know about the area? Iraq did not exist "for the last several hundred years". Iraq was carved out of the old Ottoman Empire by direction of the UK government on January 10, 1919.

 

2) Why would the Iraqi's have any LESS "right to think" than we do?

 

3) what would have stopped their "right to think" other than the efforts of Christians to oppress them?

 

I think you understood my point, oppression by many groups, Christians, Muslim, and secular dictators. I'm not going to defend any group based only on it's title or name. Again, you should not comdemn all believers, for believeing, only those responsible for the acts of oppression. I'm, frankly quite tired of your constant attempt to cast all beleivers in this same light. I'll ask you this one question, are you calling me an oppressor because I'm a believer. What other names would you like to call me, I've heard it all before. You have no base to make such judgements about my character or anyone else just because they believe in a supreme being.

[Tormod]

infamous, there is still a problem with your quotes. Do you quote manually or do you use the "Quote" button? The above post makes it hard to see what is Freethinker's quote and what is your post.

[GAHD]

Lets look at the US prison system (violent crimes only). Can you honestly say that if you polled each and ever prisoner that there reason for incarceration was directly attributed to God.

'Finding God' seems to be the last resort many refer to when they brush with the great oddity of death. I'd tend to think that if most death row inmates had thought their life would end, they wouldn't have commited the crimes in the first place.

 

As to Prisoner polling, why limit it to death row? Why not maximum security in general? Why not include low & medium? People convicted of extortion, fraud, or orther such crimes? If they had found god prior to commiting the crime, I'm shure they would still have found a way to rationalise it to themselves and commit the act. God or not, criminals are generally people who think they won't get caught, or just don't think and have faith all will go well for them.

[RiverRat]

If they had found god prior to commiting the crime, I'm shure they would still have found a way to rationalise it to themselves and commit the act.

 

Agreed ... that is why I said 'may not have' rather than 'would not have'. Although ... your statement seems to imply that ALL will (would) rationalize without the possiblity of SOME (may) not.

 

My contention (that flies in the face of Freethinker) is that a Godless society will be no better than a Religious society (and maybe a wee-bit worse - although I admit there is no basis for this sweeping assumption of a 'wee-bit' worse) ;)

[lindagarrette]

Agreed ... that is why I said 'may not have' rather than 'would not have'. Although ... your statement seems to imply that ALL will (would) rationalize without the possiblity of SOME (may) not.

 

My contention (that flies in the face of Freethinker) is that a Godless society will be no better than a Religious society (and maybe a wee-bit worse - although I admit there is no basis for this sweeping assumption of a 'wee-bit' worse) ;)

Although there may not be a direct corollation, the percentage of athiests in prison, according to numerous sources, is approximately .002

[Fishteacher73]

Although there may not be a direct corollation, the percentage of athiests in prison, according to numerous sources, is approximately .002

 

I think that number has a valid reason. Athiests don't have a "second chance" existence. If you believe you become worm poop when you die, you do not want to waste the time you do have. I feel for athiests (at least for me) that wasted time is the worst atrocity one can commit. Time is all we have and it must be used wisely. There is no do-over, no pearly gates with ambrosia and your childhood puppy. there is just the here and now.

[Freethinker]

I agree RiverRat; God or no God, humanity will still invent all the justification they need to continue killing one another. History continues to repeat itself, the more things change, the more they remain the same!!

Ah yes, once more we see proof of the negative attitude Christers have about the human race. Thanks for helping me prove this once again.

[Freethinker]

I guess they have taken the advice of the "warring" types and decided that much of their "right to think" needs a bullet to make its point.

??? What makes you say this? What about Iraqi's gives ANY support for such a claim? they had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. They had not attacked the US or any of our allies. They had not even threatened us. They did not even have the ability to threaten us. lacking ANY WMD. (Just more lies from Bush and his cronies as we have no found out beyond any question) Were they at war at some point recently? Sure, they attacked Iran some years ago based on OUR providing the weapons and financial aid to do so. It was the US's interests they were fighting for. What about Gulf War 1? You know, when Saddam fought to get IRAQI oil wells back from Kuwait? When Saddam on July 25, 1990 met in Baghdad with U.S. Ambassador April Glaspie and asked Glaspie if the U.S. would object to an attack on Kuwait over the small emirate's theft of Iraqi oil, the ambassador told him, "We have no opinion.... Secretary [of State James] Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction ... that Kuwait is not associated with America." Or was it when Saddam gasses not HIS people, but his internal enemy with the chemical WMD the US gave him?

 

Was Saddam a horribly cruel ELECTED PRESIDENT? Yes. So is the currently UNelected US President. (Too bad we can't get a decent Regime Change in the US!) But we have spent HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS to get Saddam out of office. What is it about the Iraqi citizens that are trying to fight for their homeland that you find so "warring"?

 

I can't stand the crooked international war criminal G Bush. But if some other country came over here, locked him up (while I applauded) and then tried to force their unwanted government on the US, yes I might also "need() a bullet to make my point".

I can not see a situation that mandates that one kill another person, even for self preservation.

I can. I will take self preservation over passive acceptance of personal destruction. But I find it hard to imagine this to ever be a real situation.

[Freethinker]

Freethinker; Your knowledge of scripture is quite outstanding, I'm surprised that you are not preaching somewhere. But then again I quess you are, that is here at Hypography.

Yes, most Atheists I know are far more familiar with Christianity and it's joke book (and a BAD joke!) than Christians. That in fact is most often why we are NOT Christians, KNOWLEDGE.

[Fishteacher73]

??? What makes you say this? What about Iraqi's gives ANY support for such a claim? they had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.

 

Or was it when Saddam gasses not HIS people, but his internal enemy with the chemical WMD the US gave him?

 

.

 

I think you misunderstood my point Freethinker. I absolutly make no claims that Iraq had a connection to 9/11. The "bullet" that I am speaking of in that instance is the current combat now seen in Iraq. (as you pointed out, a non-elected foriegn invader).

 

 

As for Saddam gassing the Kurds...There are new studies indicating that it was actually the Iranians that gassed the Kurds. Yes, Saddam used chemical weapons in the Iran/Iraq war, but they were caustic agents (such as mustard gas. I do not remember off the top of my head what the other agent was, but it was NOT a neural agent). Invetigations now indicate that the Kurds were gased with a nerve agent that Saddam did not posess, but the Iranians did (According to a US Defense Intelligence Agency report in the early ninties).

 

As for killing in self-defense; there are ways to protect yourself that are nonleathal. Why would you shoot someone if you could disarm them? My position has been doubted but there has been no argument against it other than "No. I would kill." What situation could you been that would leave you no other option? (Aside from some hypothetical goldbergian contraption that left you no choice. And you know muggers walk around with those everyday....)

[Freethinker]

Freethinker, while I agree with many of your posts, I must disagree that all wars are fought because of religion. Most wars are about economics, an attempt to obtain more resources for any given group,

If I said "ALL", I apologize for the error. However try to find any major war throughout history in which the opposite sides can not be designated by their religious alignment at some critical point in the war's development. Yes there are many reasons.Take something as seemingly Secular as the US Civil War. Specific sects/ sets of Christian religious beliefs (such as slavery) were a major issue. There were religious ideological underpinnings to it. Ones that if they had not been held by both sides, would most likely not have resulted in the war.

and it is not limited to humans. Insects will fight over resources as well, as is demonstrated in this video:

Irrelevant to the discussion.

I don't know where to find it, but I once saw a study where they simulated city life with rats, over crowding them in a cage and not giving them enough food - they began to attack each other over the food and space.

OK, and why is there not an even, universally benefitial spread of resources for all of humanity? Why does the Western World place significantly less value on S African Blacks and allow TENS OF MILLIONS to be slaughtered, while claiming we can not stand by and let Saddam kill a few thousands? Why do we FUND Christian Missionaries to Iraq when it is a FACT that a Muslem that does convert will be killed by other Muslems? Why do we stop the UN from promoting the ONLY THING that will save millions from getting HIV/ AIDs? Instead funding more Christian Missionaries that STOP the very effort most needed?

 

Yes people will kill to save their families from stravation. But why does the Corp world not just feed them? I am sure $200,000,000,000.00 could feed a lot of people. A few right here in the US. But we are so proud of our war instead! It's better to have the largest Embassy in the world and 14 new military bases in Iraq.

 

CHRISTIANS!

I think that if we ever got enough resources to allow everybody to live as they want to, there wouldn't be any more wars.

How many wore resources do we need? We have enough food to feed the world. It is going to waste in storage bins. We have every resource we need to solve the entire population problem of the world if we just decided that in fact EVERY human life is actually of value. If we put HUMAN LIFE over religious superstition and personal ambitions.

I'd be interested to see the relative living conditions of liberals vs. conservatives, republicans vs. democrats, and believers vs. atheists.

Yes that would be VERY interesting.

Take the Waltons (Walmart) as an example. Republican, conservative, Christians and the 5 of them add up to a fortune that is almost twice that of what would be the 2nd place. Look at the absolute nightmare Walmart has been as a "Corp Citizen".

 

Another interesting approach would be to take known baddies, like the Corp Crooks of the late '90's Ken Lay, Enron style. or the Savings and Loans crooks from a few decades before. ALL Republican, conservative, Christians.

[RiverRat]

Yes, most Atheists I know are far more familiar with Christianity and it's joke book (and a BAD joke!) than Christians. That in fact is most often why we are NOT Christians, KNOWLEDGE.

 

Knowledge of what?

Until there is absolute proof for either side of the God / no God arguement all we are left with are personal beliefs and opinions. ;)

 

I do know that both atheists and christians can quote scriptures to their own benefit (and use them for an irrational end).

 

I see your George Bush and raise you a Pol Pot.

 

Or... maybe Mother Teresa trumps Tse-tung

[Freethinker]

I agree, I was simply explaining that it isn't our government's fault.

YEs it is and you gave one of the very reasons in your post

It makes sense, dollarwise, to move manufacturing to places where the labor will work cheaply.

The "Dollarwise" is BECAUSE of US Gov policies that not only ALLOW, but PROMOTE Corps going over seas.

[Freethinker]

If most of the world was pacifists, there would still be somebody willing to hurt others to get what they want.

Yes, but it would be INDIVIDUALS, or at worst, small groups, not entire nations and ideologies...

I think that what the world needs is a strategy for diminishing every country's armed forces to be just large enough to defend the country.

... as such a COUNTRY would not need to defend itself against other countries, just a few individuals.

[Freethinker]

Greetijngs Freethinker; It's very flattering that you should pay so much attention to my posts. Even though we disagree on many things, it is pleasing for me to know that you are so interested in what I have to say. Thanks for your undivided attention. infamous

Hey, no problem. Glad it pleases you. I am always interested in what others have to say and trying to understand why.

 

Plus you give so much easy to use ammunition! Such simple spring boards.

 

Others here, the longer term members, have learned to not make it so easy for me. Yes I am glad you showed up.