"Wee Beasties" and other "Critters" in TP

[Ahmabeliever]

Quote Michaelangelico

 

"I would add 'reduces pollution of rivers from farm fertiliser run off.' I believe this is a big problem in the Mississippi river.

It would be nice to have a bit more science in on water holding capacity."

 

fungal mycelium will provide outstanding water retention and soil stability. They are being looked into for Washingtons state forests. The roadways cause erosion and so berms of organic material with fungal innoculation are proposed. A meeting of minds is needed here. TP the firebreaks and roadways and then innoculate them.

 

Quote

 

"From my own observations char also seems to make potting mix easier to re-wet once it has dried out (A big problem in large nurseries. If their automatic watering system goes down and pots dry out, then when re- watering, the water just runs down the side of the pot)"

 

I've observed this too, but it's not as good at retaining water as an unknown potting soil I brought a hybridberry in. I can soak it without a tray and nothing comes out.

 

Quote

 

"This worries me a bit as, with galloping urbanisation and land clearing, we may be putting to death thousands or millions of different soil flora and fauna.

The Japanese just discovered one 'wee beastie' in volcanic pumice To their delight they found this 'wee beastie' makes phosphate. (Up to that point they were looking at Oz technology for applying super -phosphate to Japanese soils) There may be many treasures under our feet but as soon as we start our Farming/Gardening practices (organic or chemical) we will destroy the aboriginal populations of "critters."

 

The destruction of bacterial and fungal populations comes with the clearing of land. Collection and redistribution of top-soils, native plantings, and re innoculation of exposed subsoils with native innoculants would help a great deal.

 

This is one summation point that was overlooked. The mention of extremophiles and beaches was also meant to point out that wherever you are, bacteria are present. When you inoculate material you need to be adding local compost, populated for local bacteria. Local root material, for local fungi.

 

The local critters are already adapted to many of the variances. Adding some charcoal and bone and clay will more likely help than hinder them, as it did in the amazons gardens.

 

What applies in the amazon is amazonian beasties. Pretty much the same deal as the beasties you have, or I have. Any specific variations will bring variance.

 

Fantastic wee beastie making phosphate from pumice. No local limestone, very little animal droppings, and a lack of calcified rocks is my rough guess, nature had to provide.

 

Quote

 

"I can't find Molasses here only "Golden Syrup" which may be the same. (?)

I have yet to try "horsy-farm produce" shops. I have been experimenting with raw sugar. Per kilo, the cheapest soil additive around."

 

Golden syrup is more refined, and very nice on pancakes. good plant food too. Horsey farm shops will have your molasses. Get unsulfured, the sulfur is said to mess with fugal hyphae.

 

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"How thick was the shredded paper? One leaf? This is very fast breakdown."

 

The shredded paper was in handful sized chunks of 1" strips that I'd torn into 4"ish lengths. I'd rifled it around a bit once I put the handfuls in the pile. Many spots would have had it clumped with more than 1/2 dozen sheets together.

 

Quote

 

"Yes but

It worries me that many are just taking the char from the TP equation. Possibly because of the Global Warming implications. You are probably right but I would say "'TP techniques'(clay, SOM, fish, bones etc)is more to do with turning the existing soil into fertiliser! hehe."

 

Correct - using just char benefits perhaps, but misses the chance to build really great soil.

 

Quote

 

"I was a bit worried when I recently read an article that claimed that charcoal can lock up nutrients. I may have seen this happen in some pots when first application of char made the plants go backwards, then recover and thrive. I did loose a couple of acid loving plants. (My soil is shite with some areas of pH 9)"

 

I theorise the nutrients are soaked up by bacteria, and then released again. This causing the so called stripping of nutrients.

 

Quote

 

And how to you think this is going to go down with big agribusiness fertiliser suppliers?

 

I care very little for these companies. I'd suggest they'd better start spending money on organic research, making pyrolised charcoal, fungal innoculants and compost activators. They've been rich and farmers poor for too long. I wouldn't care less if they dissapeared as another industrial dinosaur. Once we've learned to put our wastes back in the soil properly and treat the soil properly we don't need them.

 

Quote

 

"Adding nitrogen has been shown to kill or interfere with nitrogen fixing bacteria in a couple of recent studies."

 

- EXACTLY! :)

 

Quote

 

"I think we can start writing our "TP for Home Gardener's Book" now?

:lol: :lol:

"

 

You know, that's not a bad idea. Where's a soil biologist to give my rantings a smiley face and a tick.

 

Quote

 

Ahmabeliever

Just a couple of things to help you not run fowl :lol: Bwaaarrrrk! Buk buk Bwaaarrrk! :hihi::hihi:

 

1. don't quote too much from copyrighted work. Use the quotes tool to identify a quote and give the URL address for people to follow up. Maybe tell them why they should follow it up

 

Good point thanks, ruins flow but protects the greater good. I was hoping to draw people into the links - you got me.

 

Better still I guess would be permissions but OMG I've tried permissions with some of these - vegetable stuck in unspeakable orifice types. One time a university would not even sell me the ability to use a photo of a sheep. Not even for a percentage of profits. :doh:

 

2 Keep on the thread topic if possible. You were thinking out loud here and its fine, but some posts could have gone into a more general TP thread.

In fact you probably have something to say on most of them!SEE

Terra Preta - Science Forums

 

The manner in which I write and think out loud here is subconscious streaming in many parts, I guess I could go back and box it up. :hihi: Just kiddin with ya!

 

I'm not trying to avoid the sites protocol and mean no disrespect. I am just trying to concentrate my thoughts and ideas which though you may not see, all tie in to my understanding of wee beasties roles in the soil. So I don't lose track of where I am, and where I'm going with this, I mention bones - and how they alter the population of wee beasties - clay - and believe it provides energy from mineralisation and subsequent further nutrition for wee beasties - charcoal - housing for wee beasties...

 

I doubt any one aspect of TP matters without wee beasties. (as pertaining to it's effects on soil, not global warming and the energy industry)

 

I am doing my darndest to point this out. :hihi:

 

Wee Beasties! :hihi:

[Michaelangelica]

 

 

And how to you think this is going to go down with big agribusiness fertiliser suppliers?

 

I care very little for these companies. I'd suggest they'd better start spending money on organic research, making pyrolised charcoal, fungal innoculants and compost activators. They've been rich and farmers poor for too long. I wouldn't care less if they dissapeared as another industrial dinosaur. Once we've learned to put our wastes back in the soil properly and treat the soil properly we don't need them.

:

I think you will soon find opposition to TP as you do to organic methods and bio-fuels. All coming out of some fancy sounding institute funded by some PR firm.

[Michaelangelica]

A good article on organic farming and costs of fertilisers

Farm Focus: Fueling organic soils with forages

Ends like this

The soil scientist W.A. Albrecht, however, was fond of saying that, "Fertile soils make the earthworms not vice versa." Farmers must furnish the organic matter to feed the worms, if they want to cash in on the earthworm's soil improving habits. As high earthworm numbers in grassland soils demonstrate, perennial forages benefit worms more than annual crop residues.

 

In biological systems, it is important not to discount the small contributions made by a broad number of other soil organisms. For instance, Vesicular-Arbuscular Mycorrhizal (VAM) fungi are thread-like root extensions that facilitate water and nutrient uptake by a variety of crop plants.

The monetary value of their contribution may be less easy to pin down than the N2-fixing Rhizobium/legume symbiosis, but they play an important role all the same. The combined work of many soil organisms might be equated to the role of solar energy heating. Mostly unnoticed, their value suddenly rises as fossil fuel prices increase.

Not surprisingly, VAMs do poorly with excessive tillage and prefer undisturbed soil - like the soil under a two or three year forage/ legume crop.

 

The motto "feed the soil, not the plant" is another way of saying that organic farmers shouldn't forget to feed the below ground livestock.

Not doing so will severely test whether organic agriculture can thrive not because of higher prices for certified products, but despite increasing costs for fossil fuels.

Farm Focus: Fueling organic soils with forages

[Ahmabeliever]

Just reading the making charcoal thread again and I see this...

 

". . . Low temperature woody charcoal (not grass or high cellulose) has an interior layer of bio-oil condensates that microbes consume and is

equal to glucose in its effect on microbial growth (Christoph Steiner,

EACU 2004). High temp char loses this layer and does not promote soil

fertility very well."

 

So there's the tars/resin question answered.

 

Another thing I read concerned fish being a large part of amazonians diet and these wastes were providing calcium and phosphorus.

 

I'm thinking seashells.

 

Oh yeah, just got back from a wedding where I met the Marine Biologist who successfully bred eels in captivity. We were talking about bacteria with concerns to pH and temperature. A common aquarium belief is that below pH 6.0 and below a certain temperature the bacteria stop working. Here's what he said.

 

"That isn't true."

 

Me - So nature doesn't stop when the pH drops.

 

"Not at all. If you have a small filter, with a pH or temperature drop the bacteria may slow down, this drop in their productivity could be a problem for your tank. With a large filter filled with bacteria, it's never a problem. Besides, if the environment changes the bacteria themselves change to suit it, they don't die they adapt."

 

He's just taken on a job cleaning dairy industry waste making fish food out of it. Got no details but I reckon it's wee beasties work and goes something like this.

 

Yeast or whey waste - pond grows algae - algae feed plankton - plankton feed fish... It's a plan I thought of years ago for dealing with cattle manure.

 

Found out the trick to containing eels too - escape artists of the first degree! - A lil electric fence :eek_big:

 

Hoping to have extended wee beastie discussions with this man whilst raising me some fresh fish dinners (I need the fish for TP calcium and phosphorus you see, of course it's on topic :shrug: )

 

Also caught up with a bloke who has an agency come in once a week and add bacteria to his u-bend where grease and oil go - the bacteria eat the grease in no time, every last bit, the end product is CO2 & water.

 

Go beasties go!

[Essay]

Hey! Just a short note to say thanks for all the interesting posts on this thread. I rarely get a chance to reply, but I've enjoyed hours of imaginary conversations, musings, and possible replies based on your posts. Especially Michaelangelica and Ahmabeliever, thanks (though I'm jealous of Ahma because you beat me to key insights and points all too often); I'm glad you take the time to share your inspirations.

 

One point that has been made before, but needs emphasizing is that the CO2 sequestration capabilities of soil reside in its ability to support microbes. hmmm... let's restate that.

 

It is the microbial biomass that is the sequestered Carbon. Adding char to soil is one way to hide some Carbon, but it's the microbes which the char supports, that provide the largest potential to quickly (w/ grey water & nutritive wastes) sequester significant amounts of atmospheric CO2. With or without char, soil can be managed (it's just easier with char) to sequester and retain enough CO2 to alter the climate.

 

The second point was about charcoal, making char, ...what's the best temperature to cook char, etc.

 

It occurred to me that it doesn't have to be exact, or uniform throughout. Some variation may be best; both high or low bio-oil chars will be taken advantage of by the beasties. I agree that it's probably best to strive for a relatively low temperature, but anything is better than nothing in this case.

Think of the smoldering piles of Amazonian trees, brush and debris. I'll bet within such a pile there are several different temperature profiles, creating various "grades" of char; and I bet it's all good for supporting microbes, and CEC, water retention, etc. Promoting Biodiversity! :eek_big:

 

I can't believe that for years I've been trashing the used charcoal from my fishtank filters.

Used, activated charcoal is probably just the same as low-temp (unactivated), bio-oil enriched, charcoal. :shrug: Thanks for the insight!

From now on, it's going into the garden!

 

mmm....yummmm; aromatic hydrocarbons and graphene.

:)

[Ahmabeliever]

Hey! Just a short note to say thanks for all the interesting posts on this thread. I rarely get a chance to reply, but I've enjoyed hours of imaginary conversations, musings, and possible replies based on your posts. Especially Michaelangelica and Ahmabeliever, thanks (though I'm jealous of Ahma because you beat me to key insights and points all too often); I'm glad you take the time to share your inspirations.

 

I'm flattered, but I'm just connecting the dots. Praise belongs with those who supplied the dots for me to connect. I am glad we have inspired your thinking :)

 

Michaelangelica has done an exemplary job of providing both data and food for thought to consume. As have many other forumers. I feel humbled amongst the minds here but wont be put off due to my own insecurities, the subject matter deserves a lot of attention. Isn't the internet the most amazing tool! Where I with no real education to speak of can learn about anything I desire. The internet in my opinion is an integral part of the equation for solving many of the planets problems.

 

Anyone, anywhere, can excel in any educational discipline. This could very well be our saving grace, with the chances of the right minds meeting (packets of data exchanged) increasing exponentially.

 

 

I can't believe that for years I've been trashing the used charcoal from my fishtank filters.

Used, activated charcoal is probably just the same as low-temp (unactivated), bio-oil enriched, charcoal. :doh: Thanks for the insight!

From now on, it's going into the garden!

 

Could use them to help innoculate compost tea if you brew them as well.

 

My 'fishwater' is superior. :hihi: I have both terrestrial and aquatic conditions in the system. Most aquatic plants have no m.fungi symbiosis and terrestrial fungi present are merely varieties that decay leaf and wood matter. Aquaponic water has m.fungi present in an established system.

[Ahmabeliever]

There remain questions for me. Here's one, and my postulationising on it. (tis so a word) B)

 

Do the charcoal and pottery environments promote anaerobic pockets which in turn process sulfur?

 

I believe as bacterial communities build up a film of themselves inside materials like charcoal and pottery, there will come a stage where there is a glut of bacteria effectively sealing air out from portions of clay and charcoal, and anaerobic conditions will be met.

 

Between the anaerobic and aerobic areas will be a community of bacteria capable of switching from aerobic to anaerobic states as neccesary.

 

This is where we'd find a 'sulfur cycle'.

 

To paraphrase another

 

"Some bacteria reduce sulfate (anaerobic), while others (aerobic) oxidize sulfide. They pass sulfur back and forth between sulfate and sulfide states, at times excreting a little elemental sulfur."

 

Very beneficial garden function. :rolleyes:

[freeztar]

There remain questions for me. Here's one, and my postulationising on it. (tis so a word) B)

 

Do the charcoal and pottery environments promote anaerobic pockets which in turn process sulfur?

 

I believe as bacterial communities build up a film of themselves inside materials like charcoal and pottery, there will come a stage where there is a glut of bacteria effectively sealing air out from portions of clay and charcoal, and anaerobic conditions will be met.

 

Between the anaerobic and aerobic areas will be a community of bacteria capable of switching from aerobic to anaerobic states as neccesary.

 

This is where we'd find a 'sulfur cycle'.

 

To paraphrase another

 

"Some bacteria reduce sulfate (anaerobic), while others (aerobic) oxidize sulfide. They pass sulfur back and forth between sulfate and sulfide states, at times excreting a little elemental sulfur."

 

Very beneficial garden function. :rolleyes:

 

Interesting thoughts Ahma.

 

I wonder if this is what is responsible for the acidifying effects often seen from adding char to the soil?

[Ahmabeliever]

Interesting thoughts Ahma.

 

I wonder if this is what is responsible for the acidifying effects often seen from adding char to the soil?

 

Can't be certain, but I think the observed reduction in soil nitrogen causes this.

 

I think this reduction in nitrogen is due to the 'attraction' of nutrients to the rapidly forming bacteria on the charcoal.

 

It becomes snacks. The nitrogen's in the nutrient cycle, albeit misplaced. :)

 

From what I recall these tests were in poor soils?

 

A poor soil is a poor soil and though char amendment might help, the soil also needs food for the bacteria and fungi to establish.

 

When I 'make' soil of any composition, I prefer to leave it at least a month before I plant in it, to 'mature' a bit. Often in this period I'll add some alfalfa or peas to sprout into it. Nitrogen fixers. These I till in to the top few inches when I plant proper. After reading taildragerdrivers post concerning alfalfa in a TP patch and stuff concerning the 'nitrogen strip' associated with char I've been adding alfalfa to all new TP mixes.

[Michaelangelica]

Soil organisms help ranchers

 

transect points: Soil organisms help ranchers

[nutronjon]

I am shamefully ignorant of science. This thread me wonder if charcoal would make a garden more prone to contaminating food with E. coli. I found the following the explanation, but don't enough to understand it. I get there are different E. coli and that they are not all bad, our community garden is off a bike path where people walk their dogs and they do not always clean up what a dog leaves behind. I have heard this can spread the harmful E. coli. Is there a need for concern, and would charcoal increase the hazzard?

 

 

Adsorption effect of activated charcoal on enteroh...[J Vet Med Sci. 2001] - PubMed Result

Adsorption effect of activated charcoal on enterohemorrhagic Escherichia coli.

Naka K, Watarai S, Tana , Inoue K, Kodama Y, Oguma K, Yasuda T, Kodama H.

Department of Cell Chemistry, Institute of Cellular and Molecular Biology, Okayama University Medical School, Japan.

 

The adsorption property of activated charcoal on verotoxin (VT)-producing Escherichia coli (VTEC) was examined using E. coli O157:H7. In the present study, E. coli O157:H7 strains were effectively adsorbed by activated charcoal. Adsorption was dose-dependent, and the maximum adsorption occurred within 5 min. At 10 mg of activated charcoal, bacteria tested were completely adsorbed. Activated charcoal also had the capacity to adsorb toxin (verotoxin 2) activity from the bacterial extract. Furthermore, the adsorption efficiency of activated charcoal for the normal bacterial flora in the intestine was assessed using Enterococcus faecium, Bifidobacterium thermophilum, and Lactobacillus acidophilus. Activated charcoal showed lower binding capacity to the normal bacterial flora tested than that to E. coli O157:H7 strains. These results suggest that activated charcoal could be a good adsorbent system for the removal of VTEC and verotoxin.

 

PMID: 11307928 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Ahmabeliever]

I have never read of a single instance of e-coli contamination through actual plant material, but what is splashed on the plant is a different matter. Or the chopping board, bench, plate, surface....

 

Dogs and cats in veg plots are a PITA. Clean your veg really well.

 

Fecal matter invariably becomes composted. Fecal matter is a possible contaminant in any garden that animals can access. And then the insects fecal matter, the bacteria's wastes...

 

The example you used shows the potential of charcoal in humans to remove e.coli.

 

Charcoal could be viewed as beneficial to soil in this regard as well. It will not only soak up the bacteria, they will be recycled as something else, stuck in the carbon with no host they'll die and become potential nutrients.

 

Hope that helped clear up some things.

[Michaelangelica]

A very tecnical, long paper but a bit of a worry as far as the poor Wee Beasties go.

the Glyphosate threat 1

Monsanto was not the only one who researched this issue. Research on glyphosate effects on soil microorganisms (lasting 214 days or almost 7 months), found that stimulation and inhibition occurred depending on glyphosate concentrations (69). Also, research with two soils treated with glyphosate found that glyphosate inhibited microorganisms, but also that some adaptation to glyphosate occurred (65).

 

Soil carefully treated with glyphosate remains of course an artificial thing. But what about glyphosate that is leaked from plant roots? Grossbard pointed out in 1985 that there was a great gap in our knowledge on the response of soil microorganisms to glyphosate exuded from roots (72). This ignorance persists.

 

Laboratory research without soil found that 50 ppm (parts per million) glyphosate reduced bacterial growth by 73%, fungal growth by 91% and actinomycetes' growth by 94% (66). This last category are bacteria with some characteristics of fungi. So, a clear limit was found to glyphosate tolerance in microorganisms (from arable land). The absence of soil in this research was criticised (67).

 

A similar research was done with five identified mycorrhizas. Here, a glyphosate concentration of 50 ppm and more led to significant reductions in growth (71). In addition it became clear that each mycorrhiza had its own individual glyphosate tolerance, just like plants. The absence of soil in this research reflected reality as mycorrhizas hook directly into plant roots and get glyphosate full strength from the plant's phloem flow.

 

Research on Rhizobium bacteria in shake flask culture without soil, suggested that the ability to degrade glyphosate could be widespread among Rhizobium bacteria. Here too, an upper glyphosate limit was found above which bacterial growth was inhibited (70). What amazed these researchers was that by 1991 so few glyphosate-degrading bacteria had been isolated.

the Glyphosate threat 1

[Michaelangelica]

I am shamefully ignorant of science. This thread me wonder if charcoal would make a garden more prone to contaminating food with E. coli. I found the following the explanation, but don't enough to understand it. I get there are different E. coli and that they are not all bad, our community garden is off a bike path where people walk their dogs and they do not always clean up what a dog leaves behind. I have heard this can spread the harmful E. coli. Is there a need for concern, and would charcoal increase the hazzard?

I am sorry I missed your post

The study looks like they are using activated charcoal to purify something (water?)

Activated Charcoal is used in a lot of filters to purify various substances.

It is usually too expensive to use as a soil additive except where there are chemical spills etc.

 

I doubt if that sort of research would carry over to the local park; but many these days recommend using gloves when touching soil and potting mixes. (Also picking up your dog poo-the ubiquitous plastic bag is good for this)

 

I have been using my hands in soil and literally tonnes of potting mix (I owned a small nursery) for 45 years and I ain't dead yet.

PS

Lots of crops use manures with E coli

Persistence of Escherichia coli and Salmonella in surface soil following application of liquid hog manure for production of pickling cucumbers.

The estimated average time required to reach undetectable concentrations of E. coli in sandy loam varied from 56 to 70 days, whereas the absence of E. coli was estimated at 77 days in loamy sand.

The maximal Salmonella persistence in soil was 54 days. E. coli and Salmonella were not detected in any vegetable samples

.

Persistence of Escherichia coli and Salmonella in ...[J Food Prot. 2005] - PubMed Result

[maikeru]

I want to draw attention to soil mites, who are not very pretty when you look at them with a magnifying class or microscope, but important for soil health and nutrient recycling, and therefore worthy of our love and praise:

 

Oribatida - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Mite Lab

Soil biodiversity under different land uses in New York State

Soil Arthropods | NRCS SQ

Soilhealth.com - Soil Organic Matter

 

Some important things these little mites do around the clock:

 

1. Help regulate microbial flora, types, and diversity by grazing. Some feed on fungus, some on blue-green algae, others on bacteria. Predatory soil mites also feed on other kinds of mites.

 

2. Eat a lot of detritus, tough woody stuff (cellulose and lignin), or remains (or each other), and poop that stuff out. This helps to speed up nutrient cycling a lot. Think of cows in the pasture...only under the soil. These nutrients then become much more available to plants and microbes.

 

3. Good indicator of overall soil health. Finding lots of beneficial, long-lived, and diverse species of soil mites is a sign that the soil is healthy and rich in organic matter and has been relatively undisturbed.

 

4. Provide more competition and control for annoying pests like fungus gnats that may feed on the same food sources as the mites or attack plants. This comes back to the principle that the richer and more diverse your soil ecosystem, the less likely you are to have problems with pests and disease. A rich environment without controls or skewed ecosystem is a disaster just waiting. Think of Australia and its problems with introduced rabbits, mice, and foxes...

 

Support your local, beneficial soil mites!

[nutronjon]

I have never read of a single instance of e-coli contamination through actual plant material, but what is splashed on the plant is a different matter. Or the chopping board, bench, plate, surface....

 

Dogs and cats in veg plots are a PITA. Clean your veg really well.

 

Fecal matter invariably becomes composted. Fecal matter is a possible contaminant in any garden that animals can access. And then the insects fecal matter, the bacteria's wastes...

 

The example you used shows the potential of charcoal in humans to remove e.coli.

 

Charcoal could be viewed as beneficial to soil in this regard as well. It will not only soak up the bacteria, they will be recycled as something else, stuck in the carbon with no host they'll die and become potential nutrients.

 

Hope that helped clear up some things.

 

Thank you for clearing that up for me. For sure I will be putting charcoal in my soil mix, and perhaps stress to the city that we could use some signs to discourage carelessness with pet droppings.

[Michaelangelica]

Interesting little podcast on fungi

All About Fungi: Part 1 MicrobiologyBytes