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Fire And Water Silhouettes


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#1 petrushkagoogol

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 04:48 AM

Fire and water come with their characteristic silhouettes and "waveforms".
 
Fire is -
* Excitable - owing to the ions in the plasma state, moving freely and haphazardly
* Hot - owing to the oxidation reaction
* Bright - due to the high temperature of the combustible
 
Water is -
* Tranquil - owing to the nature of water itself
* Cool - at least as cool as the ambient temperature
* Diffuse - owing to diffused light, particularly at appreciable depths
 
Could these discrete entities be represented by different sets of differential equations that represent their inherent characteristics ? 
 
 


#2 OceanBreeze

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 06:36 AM

At first I thought this was a nonsensical question, but after giving it a bit of thought it began to make some sense.  If fire and water are considered to be opposites in the same way that inductance and capacitance are, then maybe we can use similar differential equations to describe them.

 

Current that flows through an inductance is 1/L ∫ V dt

 

Voltage across a capacitance is 1/C ∫ I dt

 

Perhaps fire can be thought of as an Inductance and water as a Capacitance, or maybe the other way around? :scratchchin: 


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#3 CraigD

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 12:30 PM

Could these discrete entities be represented by different sets of differential equations that represent their inherent characteristics ?

In science, I don’t think it makes much sense to treat fire and water as distinct elements. This idea was popular in Greece ca. 450 BC, when it was proposed that all mater was made of mixtures of the 4 classical elements, earth, water, air, and fire. By 1820, this idea had been completely rejected in favor of the theory we have today, where fire is the plasma state of matter, and water is a compound of the elements hydrogen and oxygen.

Lavoisier was ‘da man! Well, no, actually he still considered a sort of fire-like stuff, “caloric”, to be an element alongside hydrogen or carbon, and light to be an element, too, so while some call him the “father of modern chemistry”, he hadn’t entirely split from those ancient Greek natural philosophers, though he was headed in the right direction.
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#4 hazelm

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 09:12 AM

Craig, you said "fire is the plasma state of matter,"  I have never understood the "plasma".  Perhaps I have not done enough research to get to an understanding.  So, maybe it's out of order to ask the relationship between "fire" and "plasma".   I'll do some researching today but can you possibly elaborate on your statement?  Or, direct me to the best reading?  Thank you.  Is his another topic that wants a new thread?  If so, can we move it?


Edited by hazelm, 24 June 2017 - 09:17 AM.


#5 exchemist

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 09:43 AM

Craig, you said "fire is the plasma state of matter,"  I have never understood the "plasma".  Perhaps I have not done enough research to get to an understanding.  So, maybe it's out of order to ask the relationship between "fire" and "plasma".   I'll do some researching today but can you possibly elaborate on your statement?  Or, direct me to the best reading?  Thank you.  Is his another topic that wants a new thread?  If so, can we move it?

I can have a go. 

 

First of all, my understandings is that not all flames involve plasma. It is only hotter flames that can really be considered to be in the plasma state. More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame

 

As to what a plasma is, it is a state of matter in which the thermal motion of molecules has become violent enough, due to high temperature to knock electrons off the atoms, turning them into +ve ions, surrounded by free electrons. A plasma is thus a sort of very hot, electrically conducting gas of ions and electrons. 

 

Cooler flames, which are not hot enough to produce plasma, emit light because some of the reaction products and intermediates during combustion can be produced in excited states, in which some of the bonding electrons are in energetic orbitals, from which they then drop down into lower energy orbitals, giving off photons in the visible region of the spectrum as they do so. (This is an example of photochemistry, which is an interesting field of physical chemistry.) In the Wiki link the peaks in a butane flame are shown, indicating the chemical species responsible. 

 

But flames are in fact very complex from the viewpoint of chemistry and physics, because one is dealing with matter that is decomposing and reacting at high temperature, which causes molecules to break up into a wide variety of unstable fragments, whose subsequent reaction paths can themselves branch extensively.


Edited by exchemist, 24 June 2017 - 09:45 AM.

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#6 hazelm

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 01:18 PM

Thank you, exchemist.  I did read a couple of articles which helped.  I'll do the Wiki link also.  I think I'm beginning to see a light.  Perhaps the Greeks named fire because they thought of the sun as fire.  "Fiery chariot"?   



#7 exchemist

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 02:33 PM

Thank you, exchemist.  I did read a couple of articles which helped.  I'll do the Wiki link also.  I think I'm beginning to see a light.  Perhaps the Greeks named fire because they thought of the sun as fire.  "Fiery chariot"?   

Pyra? That does not sound like helios. 

 

Or am I missing the point? 


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#8 hazelm

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 02:55 PM

Pyra? That does not sound like helios. 

 

Or am I missing the point? 

No I am.  I have no idea what/who Pyra is.  I did a fast search and see Pyra connected to Pandora.  Is that the msic program where you plan your own music for your own listening?

 

Anyway -- "fiery chariot".  Elijah was taken up into heaven in a fiery chariot.  (I think that is 2Kings chapter 2.  2 Kings chapter 6:  Elisha saw the enemy approaching in fiery chariots.

 

My memory isn't good there.  Been a long while since I studied Bible history.  But that's where the expression comes from.  So I was just thinking maybe the Greeks - with their own myths - saw the sun as a fiery chariot.  Who was their god who rode across the sky each day?  Was that also a fiery chariot?



#9 exchemist

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 03:06 PM

No I am.  I have no idea what/who Pyra is.  I did a fast search and see Pyra connected to Pandora.  Is that the msic program where you plan your own music for your own listening?

 

Anyway -- "fiery chariot".  Elijah was taken up into heaven in a fiery chariot.  (I think that is 2Kings chapter 2.  2 Kings chapter 6:  Elisha saw the enemy approaching in fiery chariots.

 

My memory isn't good there.  Been a long while since I studied Bible history.  But that's where the expression comes from.  So I was just thinking maybe the Greeks - with their own myths - saw the sun as a fiery chariot.  Who was their god who rode across the sky each day?  Was that also a fiery chariot?

Pyra is Greek for fire, while Helios is Greek for the sun god, the one driving the chariot in Greek mythology. At least I think so - it's been a long while since I read any of this. So I don't see why you connect the two. 

 

But now you are bringing the bible into it, which is something different again. 



#10 hazelm

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 03:20 PM

Pyra is Greek for fire, while Helios is Greek for the sun god, the one driving the chariot in Greek mythology. At least I think so - it's been a long while since I read any of this. So I don't see why you connect the two. 

 

But now you are bringing the bible into it, which is something different again. 

No, I'm not meaning to bring the bible into it.  I'm only explaining where I remembered that expression and wondered if there is a connection to the Greeks seeing the sun as fire.  There is a connection between fire and plasma, is there not?

 

Can we back up?  :-)



#11 exchemist

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Posted 24 June 2017 - 03:25 PM

No, I'm not meaning to bring the bible into it.  I'm only explaining where I remembered that expression and wondered if there is a connection to the Greeks seeing the sun as fire.  There is a connection between fire and plasma, is there not?

 

Can we back up?  :-)

If the ancient Greeks saw the sun as fire, they certainly didn't name it the same, as you suggested.

 

Both are hot and glow, though only one of them is due to burning.