# Does HIV really causes AIDS?

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### #52 Chacmool

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 04:08 AM

Maybe I should start a new thread with this as the topic, or maybe Tormod should first create a Political Science forum, or is this wishful thinking?

Wishful thinking at the moment. It will come when we have a killer moderator who can handle it.

Could I perhaps nominate Boerseun to be the moderator of a Political Science/History Forum?

### #53 Dazed&Confused

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 10:33 AM

We spend more on dog food and cosmetics than we do on aid to Africa. Get your facts right and you wont reach so many unwarranted conclusions.

### #55 Chacmool

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 01:56 PM

How's this for a conclusion. We send $1,041,050,000 to Africa in 2004 and all people can do is complain that it isn't' enough. When will it be enough? Exactly. As I've said before - let people start taking responsibility for themselves. Tough love. If the foreign aid dries up, the corrupt governments will have to start digging into their own pockets. And if they don't, it will hopefully inspire the people to get rid of those governments once and for all. A few years ago, Sweden donated R40-million (roughly US$7-million, I think) to South Africa to combat Aids. However, the money was completely mismanaged, and was spent on a ridiculous play that reached very few people. So only the playwright actually benefitted (he received a large portion of the money), and our incompetent health minister was never even reprimanded by our government - in fact, she is now the minister of foreign affairs.

### #56 Boerseun

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Posted 06 July 2005 - 01:29 AM

There are a host of issues involved in aiding the 3rd World, and can't be as easily cut and dried as you propose. I suppose "tough love" includes the following:

"Giving" a bundle of money to Africa to boost its agricultural sector, so that these poor folks can produce enough food to be able to export, earning foreign currency in order to develop their countries - and at the same time the de facto closing of your borders for food imports by subsidizing your first world farmers to a ridiculous degree.

"Giving" a bundle of money to Africa for capital investment in infrastructure development, with the fine print in the agreement that first world contractors and "consultants" be used in the application of the funds - with the nett result of the money ending up safely in the first world again.

"Giving" a bundle of money to Africa with the condition that your country be treated preferentially as far as trade etc. is concerned. This is just economic imperialism, with the same end effect as colonial imperialism.

The only effective solution would be to invest unconditionally in education, be it from internal sources, or externally. "Giving" money to fight AIDS achieves nothing. Rather invest in education, and teach the masses how AIDS is spread.

### #57 msisk

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Posted 06 July 2005 - 09:47 AM

I'm sure you wouldn't be crying "tough love" if it was your country that was in need of aid.

where's the compassion people?

these are reall people who are dying and are sick and in need of medical attention and financial support.

and all you can do is sit around and argue about money and the politics of it.

(pardon my bitterness, but something that really frustrates me is the belief that we are not entitled to do all we can for people in need.)

### #58 Boerseun

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Posted 07 July 2005 - 01:15 AM

I'm sure you wouldn't be crying "tough love" if it was your country that was in need of aid.

where's the compassion people?

these are reall people who are dying and are sick and in need of medical attention and financial support.

and all you can do is sit around and argue about money and the politics of it.

(pardon my bitterness, but something that really frustrates me is the belief that we are not entitled to do all we can for people in need.)

Hi, msisk, and welcome!

Chacmool is actually from South Africa, and even though her country isn't in as deep a pit of poverty and disease, she's still got a very good feel of what's going on in Africa.

I think what she's referring to, isn't as much "tough love" as the phenomenon where African dictators come to the West, pleading for money for their poor, starved populace, but they fly in their own luxurious leather-trimmed and wood-panelled Boeing 727's, and drive around their own countries in the latest Rolls Royces, BMW's and glittering Mercedes-Benzes. That's hypocracy. So, clearly, financial aid achieves nothing if the application of the funds can't be monitored.

As a matter of fact - Tony Blair flies British Airways to all his international appointments, and he schedules his dairy to BA's flight schedule. That's something African dictators and so-called democratically elected presidents can look to as a good example of how to spend your taxpayers' money wisely and humbly.

### #59 Chacmool

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Posted 07 July 2005 - 03:09 AM

Thanks Boerseun! And welcome msisk!

Yes, I think we have some serious cases of hypocrisy in Africa. That's why I think the West should stop giving aid to Africa if they can't monitor it properly. It's no use if donated funds only make the rich dictators a lot richer, while the ordinary citizens are still starving and dying of Aids (largely due to lack of proper education).

The president of South Africa is one of those crying the loudest to the G8 countries to offer debt relief to all African countries, but in today's newspaper it is reported that he and his accompanying ministers spent more than R12 million (roughly US$2 million) of taxpayers' money on foreign and local trips in less than six months. They spent more than R30 000 (about US$5 000) on food alone on a single trip to Belgium. Surely this money could have been spent more wisely - especially since there is still a severe lack of basic services and education in many communities.

### #60 msisk

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Posted 07 July 2005 - 08:07 AM

that's really interesting. i think i understand much better now, thank you.

and i see your point of view, and i understand the merits of "tough love", however, it's a shame that people have to suffer because of their corrupt government.s

i only wish there was another way

thank you again for explaing

### #61 Chacmool

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Posted 07 July 2005 - 08:47 AM

that's really interesting. i think i understand much better now, thank you.

and i see your point of view, and i understand the merits of "tough love", however, it's a shame that people have to suffer because of their corrupt government.s

i only wish there was another way

thank you again for explaing

You're right - it's a terrible shame and an absolute tragedy. It enfuriates me that some people suffer while their government officials live in luxury. Please don't think that I don't have compassion for their plight. I just think poor nations should become less dependent (on their corrupt governments, on the West) and take responsibility for themselves. The best way to achieve this would be to drastically improve education (which the corrupt governments won't like, of course). Hopefully this is what will come out of the current G8 summit, and not just useless aid that will be wasted by the powers that be.

### #62 Harzburgite

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 02:48 AM

I am a UK citizen. Since Thursday messages of support and sympathy from governments, organisations and individuals have flooded the country, expressing horror at the terrorist outrage perpetrated on our innocent citizens.
This week we shall hold a two minute silence to commemorate the fifty persons killed in the bombings.
During those two minutes forty Africans will die of needless poverty. Who will spend two minutes thinking of them?
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### #63 Gurdur

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 11:27 AM

I just think poor nations should become less dependent (on their corrupt governments, on the West) and take responsibility for themselves. The best way to achieve this would be to drastically improve education (which the corrupt governments won't like, of course). Hopefully this is what will come out of the current G8 summit, and not just useless aid that will be wasted by the powers that be.

While agreeing in part with this, please pardon me if I disagree to a small extent.
The West, China and (to a far less degree) Russia make huge money out of Africa; the international marketplace is rigged in favour of the rich nations, and the financing is mostly rigged too.
The fault cannot simply be laid only to the door of "African dictators"; while many corrupt and repressive governments exist in Africa, not all African governments are corrupt or repressive. More, it begs the question of just how some of those governments got into power in the first place --- Mobutu, the Congo, etc. anyone ?

There are 4 main things to be done:
1) redraw the international marketplace so poor nations have a chance in fair trade
2) encourage by all means possible democratic, responsible & responsive government in all countries
3) encourage poor nations not to rely on primary resources as cash-makers --- the reliance on oil, rare metals or diamonds etc. is often the kiss of death for a country, since it encourages the development of a tiny core industry that employs very few, ships much of its money out of the country, is wide open to courruption and pay-offs, and leaves most of the citizenry poor, not paying much taxes and thus not listened to.
4) stop selling arms to African countries, for hell's sakes. Where do the corrupt governments get their arms to maintain power ?
And stop the interference of foreign secret efforts to try hanging on to the lucrative oil, diamond and rare mineral industries.

### #64 Chacmool

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 06:11 AM

Just to illustrate the ignorance and arrogance of the South African government when it comes to the topic of this thread, I'm posting the transcript of a radio interview with our minister of health. The discussion is between John Robbie of Radio 702 and Dr Manto Tshabalala-Msimang. (Please bear with me - it's a bit long.)

Robbie: You have said that the policy of the ministry is well known.
Do you accept that HIV causes Aids?

Tshabalala-Msimang: Why do you ask me that question today? I have
answered that question umpteen times.

R: Yes, and the answer is?

T-M: Umpteen times I have answered that question. My whole track
record of having worked at the area of HIV and Aids for the last 20
years is testimony. Why should you ask me that question today?

R: You haven't answered the question, Manto.

T-M: Why should you ask me that question?

R: To avoid confusion.

T-M: I have never said anything contrary to what you want me to say today.

R: So, therefore, you accept that HIV causes Aids.

T-M: You are not going to put words into my mouth.

R: I am not putting words into your mouth. I am asking you a question.

T-M: Yes you are.

R: I am asking you a straight - now hold on a second - I am asking you a straight question, the minister of health of South Africa, I am asking you a question: does HIV cause Aids?

T-M: I have been party to developing a strategic framework and that strategy testifies what my policy understandings of the HIV epidemic are. If you haven't read that, please go and read it. And then you will understand where I depart from.

R: Manto, Manto. A simple yes or no is the answer I am looking for.

T-M: You will not force me into a corner into saying yes or no.

R: I am not forcing you into a corner, I am asking you a straight question - I
find your reaction bizarre.

T-M: I would advise you to read the strategic framework. You have to analyse
it. It is important for the media to inform the public about the positions of
government ... It is time that when you interview people, not on yes or no, but
on the tenets of the framework.

R: Manto, we have gone as far as we can go. I find your reaction to that question absolutely bizarre and that is my final word on it.

T-M: I am not Manto to you. Let me tell you I am not Manto to you.

R: What are you?

T-M: I am the minister of health and I don't even know you.

R: So, what must I address you as, Miss Minister or Ms Minister or Mrs Minister?

T-M: I don't know whatever you address me, but I am not a friend.

R: How must I address you?

T-M: I don't know - but you have to read the strategic framework.

R: Bizarre.

T-M: And I…

.R: Oh go away!

T-M: And I am...

R: I cannot take that rubbish any longer. Can you believe it? I have never in my life heard rubbish. Here we have a situation where the minister of health sends out a document, amongst others, that is Looney tunes, that suggests that the Illuminati have conspired with the aliens to bring about Aids to reduce the African population. Now you get the minister on [radio] to explain this and see what happens. Given that the president has led, not just in South Africa, but a complete world controversy, where many people think this country has been held up to ridicule at an international conference over this issue and given the proximity of the two, I thought it would be a good idea to get the minister in on this issue... ... the fact that she would not answer that question leads me to be very, very worried indeed. I find that bizarre. Anyway, I won't call her Manto again.

### #65 Biochemist

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 11:15 AM

...The discussion is between John Robbie of Radio 702 and Dr Manto Tshabalala-Msimang. (Please bear with me - it's a bit long.)...

This was a pretty amazing post, Chac.

### #66 Super Polymath

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 09:14 AM

I think most Aids cases are completely psychosomatic.

Why would nature kill off its most successful breeders when the Catholics do a fine enough job at that all on their own with their medical scare tactics.

I can't find a single hospital that isn't named after some saintly douchebag