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Does HIV really causes AIDS?


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#35 Dazed&Confused

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 04:59 PM

You do that.

And also, while you're at it, keep telling yourself that your country's doing that for some higher altruistic purpose.

The only reason your country, or more to the point, pharmaceutical companies protected by your country's borders, will spend a single dollar on AIDS research is if they expect to get at least a thousand back, for every dollar spent.

They're not doing it to do anybody a favour. And, if you ever see your esteemed prime minister, mr. Blair, do another public appearance with one of those silly, pointless, ludicrious and stupid AIDS ribbons on, know for a fact that he's doing it only, and ONLY, because his PR officer told him to do it.

Do you have any idea of the dynamics involved in AIDS, as experienced in a large percentage of the population?

Unwed mothers, with no support system, dying in droves and letting their kids fall into an insufficient social security system - their kids being, by the way, also HIV positive, also maturing to full-blown AIDS within a couple of months of birth? The argument can be made that it's slum-bunnies squirting out a couple 'o babies and that they'll never amount to much et cetera - but this is armchair bullshit. You go down to the squatter camps and see for yourself.

Did you know, for instance, that in Botswana, there's a booming market in second-hand coffins? A guy croaks, gets buried, and withing 48 hours of his burial, his casket has been dug up, the stiff thrown back into the hole, the hole covered up nicely, and the coffin sold on the black market? For the simple reason that people are dying faster than the coffin manufacturers can build boxes.

And all the while this is happening, we have a bunch of conceited people reasoning if HIV actually causes AIDS or not.

It does.

Make your peace with it - it's not an intellectual exercise.

And besides - your country might be spending a heck of a lot of bucks on research, did you think for a single second that they'd give it to us (Africans) for free? We'll have to pay through our necks to get it, that's why Thabo Mbeki's supporting generic medicine for AIDS, tuberculosis, etc.


My country owes nothing to africans and we don't have "squatter camps" but that's not the point.

#36 jasonchild

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 05:42 PM

My country owes nothing to africans and we don't have "squatter camps" but that's not the point.


No one "owes" anything to anyone else. It shouldnt be about "who owes whom", that head-in-the-sand mentality will grant nothing but the eventual destruction of all you hold dear. Ignore the plight of mankind and pray your interest and hope doesnt extend past your short lifespan.

#37 Dazed&Confused

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 06:02 PM

No one "owes" anything to anyone else. It shouldnt be about "who owes whom", that head-in-the-sand mentality will grant nothing but the eventual destruction of all you hold dear. Ignore the plight of mankind and pray your interest and hope doesnt extend past your short lifespan.


This is coming from somebody who's country has done the most to **** up the world we live in?

#38 jasonchild

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 06:51 PM

This is coming from somebody who's country has done the most to #&(% up the world we live in?


Judge me based on my geographic location if you choose...as it speaks volumes about your value as a human being to me. Regardless, enjoy your opinion; I enjoy mine.

Regards,

jCc

#39 Fishteacher73

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 12:07 PM

My country owes nothing to africans and we don't have "squatter camps" but that's not the point.


You don't not e what country you are from, but if it is just about any of the Allied powers from WWII, you country is part of the problem. The random map line drawing of the post WWII re-construction of Africa is one of the main issues of the African situation.

#40 Boerseun

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 12:57 PM

You don't not e what country you are from, but if it is just about any of the Allied powers from WWII, you country is part of the problem. The random map line drawing of the post WWII re-construction of Africa is one of the main issues of the African situation.

A very valid point, Fish. And one that can keep me ranting for pages and pages on end!

Maybe I should start a new thread with this as the topic, or maybe Tormod should first create a Political Science forum, or is this wishful thinking?

The arbitrary drawing of international borders in Africa, whereby whole nations have been cut into pieces, have surely contributed in a big way to the mess that is modern day Africa, although I wouldn't necessarily attribute the AIDS pandemic to it.

What can be attributed in a big way to thoughtless actions by the Powers that Were, are things like the Rwanda massacres, for instance - the Hutus and Tutsis being arch enemies for hundreds of years all of a sudden forced to cohabitate the same artificial country, and struggling for the same positions of power in one government. The West was really short-sighted in their handling of Africa, and should maybe take some ownership for issues that sprout out of their myopic decisions of years ago.

#41 Dazed&Confused

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 11:18 AM

You don't not e what country you are from, but if it is just about any of the Allied powers from WWII, you country is part of the problem. The random map line drawing of the post WWII re-construction of Africa is one of the main issues of the African situation.


Just blame it on the west like everything else

The eastern bloc countries had the same problems but nobody sends aid to those nations on the scale that they do with african nations

Britain didn't get an easy ride out of WWII either the only ones who really benefited were americans so your point isn't valid

#42 Dazed&Confused

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 11:23 AM

A very valid point, Fish. And one that can keep me ranting for pages and pages on end!

Maybe I should start a new thread with this as the topic, or maybe Tormod should first create a Political Science forum, or is this wishful thinking?

The arbitrary drawing of international borders in Africa, whereby whole nations have been cut into pieces, have surely contributed in a big way to the mess that is modern day Africa, although I wouldn't necessarily attribute the AIDS pandemic to it.

What can be attributed in a big way to thoughtless actions by the Powers that Were, are things like the Rwanda massacres, for instance - the Hutus and Tutsis being arch enemies for hundreds of years all of a sudden forced to cohabitate the same artificial country, and struggling for the same positions of power in one government. The West was really short-sighted in their handling of Africa, and should maybe take some ownership for issues that sprout out of their myopic decisions of years ago.


I disagree but you already knew that

Like I said everybody got a raw deal out of WWII apart from the americans and possibly for a short time the russians

#43 Chacmool

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 01:20 PM

Just blame it on the west like everything else

The eastern bloc countries had the same problems but nobody sends aid to those nations on the scale that they do with african nations

Britain didn't get an easy ride out of WWII either the only ones who really benefited were americans so your point isn't valid


Yes, why can't each nation simply be responsible for themselves? Many African countries have a lot of wealth, but it is abused be their corrupt governments. Does this mean that their populations should, therefore, continue to receive endless aid from other countries (mainly Europe and the US)? Absolutely not. Let the dictators take responsibility for their own people and stop sucking the rest of the world dry, before the entire world ends up in misery and poverty!

#44 Boerseun

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 01:59 PM

Yes, why can't each nation simply be responsible for themselves? Many African countries have a lot of wealth, but it is abused be their corrupt governments. Does this mean that their populations should, therefore, continue to receive endless aid from other countries (mainly Europe and the US)? Absolutely not. Let the dictators take responsibility for their own people and stop sucking the rest of the world dry, before the entire world ends up in misery and poverty!

Fair enough.

The isssue, though, is that the nations under discussion aren't in a position to take responsibility for themselves. All of a sudden, the concept of 'Rule of Law' and 'Democracy' and 'Freedom of Speech' et cetera is forced upon them. ('Them'...? us, Chacmool! :xx: )
And that, without sounding (or trying NOT to, at least) TOO colonial, is the issue with Africa.
We (the European Colonials) have given them a taste of what Western Freedom is all about. The larney jobs, the larney houses, all the visible marques of wealth. But we've never shown them what responsibilities goes with it. We've never shown them that in order to live in a five-bedroom mansion, you've got to earn a five-bedroom mansion salary. Which, obviously, requires a five-bedroom mansion qualification. The assumption is that if something's wrong, someone'll provide. And the West are suckers anough to keep on providing, whatever it'll be. 'Cause the West can't stand having the eight o'clock news showing them a bunch o' black kids suffering in Africa without somebody crying out to help the poor sods figure out how to plant a carrot.

We (the Western colonials in Africa) should've taught them the responsibilities going with self-governance ever since we first poot foot down in this sorry continent. All that's left, is heart-sore over such a beautiful piece of land going to the dogs, and European ignorance in saying its 'not their problem' - whilst turning a blind eye towards their own culpability.

And the whole AIDS-issue is just another manifestation of the same.

#45 Tormod

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 03:56 PM

Maybe I should start a new thread with this as the topic, or maybe Tormod should first create a Political Science forum, or is this wishful thinking?


Wishful thinking at the moment. It will come when we have a killer moderator who can handle it. :xx:

#46 Harzburgite

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 04:33 PM

Let the dictators take responsibility for their own people and stop sucking the rest of the world dry, before the entire world ends up in misery and poverty!

We spend more on dog food and cosmetics than we do on aid to Africa. Get your facts right and you wont reach so many unwarranted conclusions.

#47 Chacmool

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Posted 01 July 2005 - 07:54 AM

The isssue, though, is that the nations under discussion aren't in a position to take responsibility for themselves. All of a sudden, the concept of 'Rule of Law' and 'Democracy' and 'Freedom of Speech' et cetera is forced upon them. ('Them'...? us, Chacmool! :D )
And that, without sounding (or trying NOT to, at least) TOO colonial, is the issue with Africa.
We (the European Colonials) have given them a taste of what Western Freedom is all about.

Them? Us? Exactly. When blame is dished out and opportunities are given, I'm called a European, but when I want to travel in other countries, I'm an African. :) It's making my head hurt. *I* am not a European colonial, and neither are you. We were both born in Africa, and so were our parents, and their parents, and their parents...

The assumption is that if something's wrong, someone'll provide. And the West are suckers anough to keep on providing, whatever it'll be. 'Cause the West can't stand having the eight o'clock news showing them a bunch o' black kids suffering in Africa without somebody crying out to help the poor sods figure out how to plant a carrot.

Yes, and my point is that the West should not keep this dependancy alive out of false and misplaced feelings of guilt. Most African countries are more than capable of taking care of themselves, and it is high time that they are forced to do so. Tough love.

We (the Western colonials in Africa) should've taught them the responsibilities going with self-governance ever since we first poot foot down in this sorry continent. All that's left, is heart-sore over such a beautiful piece of land going to the dogs, and European ignorance in saying its 'not their problem' - whilst turning a blind eye towards their own culpability.

And the whole AIDS-issue is just another manifestation of the same.

Once again, I was born here, same as everyone else. Why couldn't other people learn by example? If you don't work, you don't eat. It's not turning a blind eye, it's merely a question of taking responsibility for yourself. And that applies to AIDS as well. By the way - AIDS is not limited to the poor and underprivileged - rich, white kids are just as much as risk. The problem is that people everywhere keep on shifting the blame and responsibility.

#48 Chacmool

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Posted 01 July 2005 - 08:05 AM

We spend more on dog food and cosmetics than we do on aid to Africa. Get your facts right and you wont reach so many unwarranted conclusions.

Then why are there poor people in the West? Shouldn't each country take care of its own citizens first? And the tons of dog food and cosmetics sold generate jobs for lots of people - the poor need the rich.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not unsympathetic towards the plight of the poor and the sick in Africa and every other part of the world. It just angers me that many Africans actually live in prosperous (or at least potentially prosperous) countries, but they just continue to live in poverty. A good example is Swaziland, that happens to have the highest infection rate per capita of HIV/AIDS. The people live in misery and poverty, while the extremely wealthy Swazi king lives in unbelievable luxury, flaunting his money at every possible opportunity. Why should people in the West, who work hard for their money, have to give money to these people while the government is more than capable of looking after its citizens?

#49 Fishteacher73

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Posted 01 July 2005 - 12:11 PM

The arbitrary drawing of international borders in Africa, whereby whole nations have been cut into pieces, have surely contributed in a big way to the mess that is modern day Africa, although I wouldn't necessarily attribute the AIDS pandemic to it.


As I stated earlier AIDS, is a disease of ignorance (ie a lack of knowledge). In war torn Africa, the last item on the agenda is education. When your contry is ravaged by tribal warfare and famine, you'll just about take any escape to remove yourself from the misery. Although short term, sex and drugs are the venues available. So I feel the political situation has had huge impact on the spread of AIDS/HIV.

#50 Harzburgite

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Posted 01 July 2005 - 04:05 PM

Then why are there poor people in the West? Shouldn't each country take care of its own citizens first? And the tons of dog food and cosmetics sold generate jobs for lots of people - the poor need the rich

These points are irrelevant. You were complaining about the unfairness of those in the West having to give money to Africa. Implicit in your remarks was the notion that the sums were large on a per capita basis. It was this factual error I was correcting.

Why should people in the West, who work hard for their money, have to give money to these people while the government is more than capable of looking after its citizens?

Well, if you wish to view things on a national basis then this would be a reasonable point of view. I don't view humanity in such a restrictive manner.
I am not a Christian, but I find much that is attractive within the ethics of Christianity. I am reminded of Christ's remark: "for inasmuch as ye do it unto the least of these my brethren, ye do it unto me". Consequently, I find your position, that distinguishes suffering of a fellow countryman from that of a 'foreigner' to be immoral and offensive. It seems we shall have to disagree over this.

#51 MojcaS

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Posted 02 July 2005 - 01:34 AM

As i see it: HIV like other viruses and diseases (virus is not a disease itself) is natural selection which is ongoing process. I personally don't believe in all conspiracy thing concerning HIV as custom made virus. We are still not so smart.
HIV can provoke AIDS to start but it's not necessary, somepeople with HIV will never get ill (AIDS), but if the body cannot 'kill bugs' then they are carriers for life.
HIV is like any other virus- his 'problem is only' that not adapted enough on human- so it can bring us down. It's really young virus and with time it can become mild as common flu.