FrankM Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 If one wants to store specific information for the long term, just what media provides a reasonable assurance that it will not be altered and will be understandable to the "viewer" after an extended time period. I want to consider time periods that extend over many decades and centuries. My old IBM PC (8088 cpu), which I have stored in a box, is an example of a "throwaway" magnetic media reading device, and I don't even know if any of the associated "disks" are still readable. Its diskettes are definitely not recommended for long term information storage. Who can read them now, and who could read them 100 years from now (if the diskettes were still useable)? If one wishes to leave a "time capsule" of information, what form would it have to be in such that it is understandable or even retrievable after a very long time? Consider what has to be used to "read" the information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexander Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 You could employ Vynil technology and CD's to come up with a golden disk. I've read about this somewhere, but there the explorer craft that was sent to take pictures of one of the Jupiter's moons. Scientists knew that this thing would eventually leave our solar system and go into deep space, so they decided to come up with some kind of a way to let others know we are here. They took a series of 5 disks and recorded lots of information about us and the history of this planet as well as scientiffic discoveries in different ways, so anyone viewing the media could understand. What was interesting was that they also put explanations of how to use the disks written in some kind of "universal" language with diagrams and such, so anyone could understand it. Knowing that the craft should be out in space for a while, i'd say that the informaion on thise disks was made to be able to be read for many years, so i think that this is the closest thing we have to a perfect storage media...oh and here is a :wink: for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAHD Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Long term is a very good point. CDs are worthless past a few decades as changes in temperature invariably warp the backing used to store the information. Magnetic media will always be prone to tampering and looses it's charge. I would say take a lesson from history and carve a rock, but it's hard to decypher archaic languages. That leaves solid state technology such a flash ram.Iif it were built into the device that retreives the information, and the device was solar powered or used some other form of self renewing power supply, it would have a good chance of surviving. Still it would have to be built to be redundant in case of component failure, and contain the information necessary to teach whoever was reading it how to use it with easy access(definatly not something using Window$). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexander Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 definatly not something using Window$lol, good one GAHD, you are definately right in saying that! I think flash memory is a good storage media that will last for a while... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankM Posted December 6, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 ... They took a series of 5 disks and recorded lots of information about us and the history of this planet as well as scientiffic discoveries in different ways, so anyone viewing the media could understand. What was interesting was that they also put explanations of how to use the disks written in some kind of "universal" language with diagrams and such, so anyone could understand it. ... . The message on the Pioneer 10 and 11 vehicles was so obscure that most of the best minds in our sciences couldn't decipher the intent of the message. Here is the home page of Pioneer:http://spaceprojects.arc.nasa.gov/S...eer/PNhome.htmlHere is the plaque:http://spacelink.nasa.gov/NASA.Proj...r.10.Plaque.gif I would say take a lesson from history and carve a rock, but it's hard to decypher archaic languages.That leaves solid state technology such a flash ram.Iif it were built into the device that retreives the information, and the device was solar powered or used some other form of self renewing power supply, it would have a good chance of surviving. We don't have a self renewing power supply, and we don't have a clue how long solar cells will last. We have no idea how long our technology devices will remain in working order even if stored in the best of environments. Where would such a device be "stored" such that it was preserved from accidental destruction by some idiot that thinks it might make a good nut cracker? Rock is good, if it is big enough so it can't be picked up and used to built a wall like the Rosetta Stone. It was pure luck it was found, and it was broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 We don't have a self renewing power supply, and we don't have a clue how long solar cells will last. We have no idea how long our technology devices will remain in working order even if stored in the best of environments. Where would such a device be "stored" such that it was preserved from accidental destruction by some idiot that thinks it might make a good nut cracker? Inscribe the information on titanium and place it inside a diamond satellite which is stored in orbit around the sun? :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexander Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 diamond satellite filled with liquid nitrogen? No but seriously, i think that flash is the way to go for most people who dont have the money for titanium and diamond... Think about it, it consists of, chances are, an Indium crystal with a whole bunch of switches grown into it, as you apply power the switch turns on or off, as the power is taken away the switch remains in its position until you read it's position off in 100 years, and it will take a seriously powerful electromagnetic field to erase the data,+ there's always insalation that could be put in place to prevent that from happening... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Depending no how much data you wish to store, so far the longest lasting "portable" media we have developed is (as was first suggested) vinyl. It will far outlast any "CD" or dvd technology. As far as moderate long term storage, we still reccommend tape systems to DVD storage. Longer shelf life. But still storage condition dependant. One other approach is a large hard drive. The media is very stable over very long periods of time. The biggest problem might be interfacing. If in the distant future they were to see the device would they have any idea how to recover the data on it? What might have been the best system, but it seemed to popup then disappear was magnetic bubble storage. In it "magnetic bubbles" could be moved thru passages in solid material. It is highly stable in a good range of environmental conditions. But it never caught on. Perhaps some reliable form of optical storage will come along. But Mag is the media right now (other than pure mechanical vinyl.) Then there is electron displacement and DNA computing being worked on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankM Posted December 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Inscribe the information on titanium and place it inside a diamond satellite which is stored in orbit around the sun? :wink:With all the junk that is in orbit around the sun, how would anyone distinguish a small artifical satellite from the junk? "Inscribe the information", now that is the basic issue. If the "time capsule" is not found for 100,000 years by some accidental traveler, just what inscriptions could be interpreted at that time. Any technical device that we conceive of now will be hopelessly out of date a century from now and absolutely unknown to anyone 10 to 20 centuries hence. What language never changes with time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexander Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 What language never changes with time?[/Quote] as Freethinker suggested (or rather hinted), perhaps DNA, the language has been around for 4 billion years, another 20000 is nothing for it, that ought to be the ultimate language to use... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankM Posted December 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 DNA is not a language, it cannot be altered to pass on information on another subject. Some of our smarter ancients have preserved information, a few thousand years ago, in a manner that allows it to be read by "anybody" as smart as they were. Look at the history of the "Hunab" and how it was used to align structures so that they preserved information on other subjects. Dimensions. The Mayans were not the only ones to use dimensions to preserve important information. A dimension or dimension set is language independent. The Pioneer 10-11 plaques used an obscure symbol set to represent hydrogen. They had room to inscribe a line 21.106 cm long but they didn't. That line length represents a universe wide value for a characteristics of neutral hydrogen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexander Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 DNA is not a language, it cannot be altered to pass on information on another subject.[/Quote]no, not yet, but we dont know quiet a lot about DNA...but it is an information storage media, if there is information stored somewhere, it must be stored in some form, that form is a language, it might not be any spoken language, but if there is a way to record information on a media, and there is a way to read that information off, then there is a system of communication or in other words there is a language. DNA has areas wich regulate genes and other areas that have unknown functions.also The relationship between the nucleotide sequence and the amino-acid sequence of the protein is determined by simple cellular rules of translation, known collectively as the genetic code. The genetic code is made up of three letter 'words' (termed a codon) formed from a sequence of three nucleotides (eg. ACT, CAG, TTT) how is genetic code not a language? DNA sequence reading The asymmetric shape and linkage of nucleotides means that a DNA strand always has a discernible orientation or directionality. Because of this directionality, close inspection of a double helix reveals that nucleotides are heading one way along one strand (the "ascending strand"), and the other way along the other strand (the "descending strand"). This arrangement of the strands is called antiparallel. For reasons of chemical nomenclature, people who work with DNA refer to the asymmetric termini of each strand as the 5' and 3' ends (pronounced "five prime" and "three prime"). DNA workers and enzymes alike always read nucleotide sequences in the "5' to 3' direction". In a vertically oriented double helix, the 3' strand is said to be ascending while the 5' strand is said to be descending. As a result of their antiparallel arrangement and the sequence-reading preferences of enzymes, even if both strands carried identical instead of complementary sequences, cells could properly translate only one of them. The other strand a cell can only read backwards. Molecular biologists call a sequence "sense" if it is translated or translatable, and they call its complement "antisense". It follows then, somewhat paradoxically, that the template for transcription is the antisense strand. The resulting transcript is an RNA replica of the sense strand and is itself sense. Some viruses blur the distinction between sense and antisense, because certain sequences of their genomes do double duty, encoding one protein when read 5' to 3' along one strand, and a second protein when read in the opposite direction along the other strand. As a result, the genomes of these viruses are unusually compact for the number of genes they contain, which biologists view as an adaptation. Topologists like to note that the juxtaposition of the 3' end of one DNA strand beside the 5' end of the other at both termini of a double-helical segment makes the arrangement a "crab canon".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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