Anger and hate: the power of Brianwashing

[IDMclean]

Indeed. Thank you for showing me that. I couldn't find a reference by the name I gave. Rapport would be Psychosync. I would further expand it to be an automatic, or subliminal use of empathy to begin matching, and therefore make it easier to empathize.

 

I have an interesting double blind experiment I want to perform now.

 

I still don't understand the difference between brainwashing, active/passive rapport engineering, social hypnosis, the social alter and a few other terms. They seem to me to refer to the same thing. External ques (input) from others, weather liminal or subliminal, leading to a change of behavior and/or emotional state (output).

[Southtown]

Brainwashing and the processes which create hate and anger have come up in a few threads. I think now is the time to nip it in the butt and tackle this issue once for all.

 

The main questions.

 

What is Brainwashing?

How does it work?

How easy is it to prevent oneself from being brainwashed?

What else can create hatred?

Any other issues related to the creation of hatred or anger that can express itself through violent means.

Brainwashing is usually implemented through what I call 'emotional reasoning.' Pharmaceutical commercials and Fahrenheit 911 are perfect examples. Religions are also extremely guilty, deviating from scriptures more often than not at the first sign of inflection from the voices of self-proclaimed spiritual gurus.

[sebbysteiny]

I still don't understand the difference between brainwashing, active/passive rapport engineering, social hypnosis, the social alter and a few other terms. They seem to me to refer to the same thing.

Well, I'll save you time by recommending you not to study 'rapport'. Rapport is just building a connection between you and someone else at the subconscious level. Mirroring is one way of doing this, but this is the basics. One should not mirror negative body language, and if the other person has closed body language, you shouldn't mirror, but you should open yours up.

 

Finding things in common also helps build rapport, especially if it is something that isn't immediately obvious.

 

Many people do some of these things naturally so it is more of a social skill than a concept of brainwashing. Can it be used in brainwashing? I doubt it, other than perhaps to build trust and friendship between the brainwashor and the brainwashee.

 

The social alter seems to me to be a state that is particularly vulnerable to subconscious messages so it is a great tool for brainwashing. But there are other tools.

 

I observed it at greatest intensity in my longer relationships, of family and friends, particularly my best friend, Adam. It got to the place where we would seemingly think in syncro. The kinda thing where you look at the other person and know in that moment what it is that you two will do next.

 

That's rapport. You guys are mirroring each other on a subconscious level. Can it help in brainwashing? See above. I'm not saying it isn't psycosynchronisation as well, but then psycosynchronisation must either be the same as rapport or include it.

 

So lets move onto defining brainwashing.

 

My def. for BW aka subliminal influence

“information that influences our behaviour without our being consciously aware of the influence." Elaborating, the term means that we may “unconsciously” understand and act upon a message what we do not notice we have received. This implies a particular way of determining that we have been influenced by the image and message.

 

I largely agree with this except instead of 'influening our behavior' I would substitute 'persuades our mind'. As KickAssClown stated in his Wikopedia link, the tools for brainwashing are the very same ones as those used in advertising and selling. So I'm starting to think it is basically persuasion but on the subconscious level.

 

Brainwashing exercise / bit of fun

I decided I would invite a girl (who is a friend) for drinks with another girl (who is a friend) but I thought I would be a bit evil and lace it with hypnotic suggestions to invite her instead.

 

Hey Angela,

 

On [some date], Becki, me and YOU are meeting for drinks. We will be

meeting at [some place and time] and will probably be having a group ego

massage saying how great we all are for [some accumplishment we all did] and you might find yourself looking forward to this immensely.

 

My question is, what is your mobile number incase we need to contact you and make slight rearrangements?

 

Seb,

 

x

 

1 Quality point for the person who can spot all the hypnotic suggestions!

P.S, it worked since she accepted the invite.

[sebbysteiny]

Brainwashing is usually implemented through what I call 'emotional reasoning.' Pharmaceutical commercials and Fahrenheit 911 are perfect examples. Religions are also extremely guilty ... .

I agree. 'Emotional reasoning' is brainwashing. For those who have seen my bad side, you may have seen that I usually get slightly offencive when confronted by emotional reasoning for this reason, hence the number of neg rep points I've recieved, but this comes with the territory :). I think we have already dealt with this type of brainwashing though. The main question here is, how does it work?

Demonisation is the act of installing the feeling of hatred towards a party and is another form of brainwashing. It works in a three stage process: 1) make you fall in love with a party ('the loved party'); 2) add a second party ('the demonised party') which causes immense suffering to the loved party; 3) suggest a solution (eg terrorism, genocide). Demonisation works by distracting the conscious mind with a fairly non debatable argument (eg every people have a right to effective and proportionate self defence), and then using emotionally charged statements to connect the loved party to the perportrator, the demonised party to the victim and the 'self defence' to the crime against humanity. These emotionally charged statements thus are fed directly into the subconscious (as the conscious mind is distracted) and act as a hypnotic suggestion. A great example of demonisation is NKT's post in the thread 'Islamic terror: the solution'

 

Essentially, I'm thinking 'emotional arguments' and 'demonisation' are the same except demonisation uses emotional arguments to install the specific emotion of hate (via love) while emotional arguments are more general.

[sebbysteiny]

Oh my god, I just saw THE best advertising ever and I just HAD to share it with you guys. The McDonalds advertising executives must have been patting each other on the back real hard with this one. The brainwashing here is very powerful and very subtle. Can anybody spot it?

 

On the front there is a picture of a bun, but where the burger is supposed to be, there are the words EVER WONDERED WHAT McDONALD'S PUTS INTO ITS BURGERS?

 

Then you turn it over and you get the following words

Want to know what's in our food? Or where it comes from? Just ask. Whether you simply have a question, or want to join the debate, our website is the place to go. Who knows, you may even decide to apply to become a Quality Scout, and end up pulling on wellies to visit some of our farms and suppliers. Come and see for yourself.

 

To find out more, go to

 

http://www.makeupyourownmind.co.uk

Is that not awesome? Brainwashing at its very finest.

[IDMclean]

As I have said before. My problem is with the term brainwashing. What we are talking about as a complet unit is psycho-social engineering. Anyway you spin it we are talking about the manipulation of people, and there perceptions to achieve behaviorial ends.

 

What appears to go on with a person and what actually is going on with the person are two different things. I strongly dislike the terms of brainwashing and demonisation, because they imply things (subliminally), which are either not true or poorly defined. They are too vague of words to be useful in discussion. Everything that has been discussed here falls under various degrees of liminal and subliminal influences, both conscious and subconscious.

 

Rapport is not just between two individuals. It occures in groups and between groups. (Analogy) If the mind is matter and has mass, then rapport would be spacetime. Mass tells spacetime how to bend, and spacetime tells mass how to move. How we act, subconsciously, has allot to do with how we think.

 

Rapport and the Social Alter are intimately linked, if not the same thing. It's all modes of empathy and psycho-social integration.

 

I have to ask, sebby, how do you know that you have not been influenced into acting the way you do? How do you know that this very discussion is not a result of what you would term "brainwashing" and what I would merely call "thought reform"?

[ronthepon]

Hey Angela,

 

On [some date], Becki, me and YOU are meeting for drinks. We will be

meeting at [some place and time] and will probably be having a group ego

massage saying how great we all are for [some accumplishment we all did] and you might find yourself looking forward to this immensely.

 

My question is, what is your mobile number incase we need to contact you and make slight rearrangements?

 

Seb,

 

x

 

On the front there is a picture of a bun, but where the burger is supposed to be, there are the words EVER WONDERED WHAT McDONALD'S PUTS INTO ITS BURGERS?

 

Then you turn it over and you get the following words

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by McDonald's

Want to know what's in our food? Or where it comes from? Just ask. Whether you simply have a question, or want to join the debate, our website is the place to go. Who knows, you may even decide to apply to become a Quality Scout, and end up pulling on wellies to visit some of our farms and suppliers. Come and see for yourself.

 

To find out more, go to

 

http://www.makeupyourownmind.co.uk

 

 

Is that not awesome? Brainwashing at its very finest.

 

I must say that brainwashing cannot be so loose and mild. Perhaps we could merely call this psychological advertising/compelling.

 

In my opinion, the more stronger methods and procedures of psychological-thought reform must be brought under the extreme sounding word 'brainwashing'

 

Like subliminal messages, Constant chanting, etc. The kind that focusses on hammering in fixed scripts and feelings into a person's thought process.

 

PS: the first quote is good, psychologically well directed. I think I'll use it myself.

[sebbysteiny]

My problem is with the term brainwashing. What we are talking about as a complet unit is psycho-social engineering. Anyway you spin it we are talking about the manipulation of people, and there perceptions to achieve behaviorial ends.

 

It appears we are in agreement. Your right, 'Brainwashing' is a bad term to describe the pursuasion technique because of the negative connitations.

 

But I think the word Brainwashing still has a purpose.

 

In the hands of McDonald's executives, or me, they could sell an extra burger and I could get an extra acceptance to an invite.

 

But the techniques are extremely deadly in the wrong hands. If you get people hooked, then you could quite quickly turn decent normal people and even entire countries into brainwashed fanatics willing to die to kill innocent men, women, children and babies.

 

Such pursasion techniques have always pre-empted every genocide and cataclysmic crime against humanity and are the daily diet of almost all terrorist groups, non more so than Islamic terror.

 

The term Brainwashing I think we should keep to remind us of the power of these subconscious pursasion techniques and to remind us always to respect them and never to abuse them. I wish all mankind to be aware of them so they may be imune from it (other than the ladies I seduce ;) ).

 

The term 'demonisation' I also like for similar reasons. Yes it is the same as any other form of emotional (and subconscious) 'thought reform'. But when this is used for the purpose of spreading hate by demonisation, very bad things can happen. Again, demonisation explains just this application.

 

So I agree, KickAssClown, and I disagree. I think you are right that the techniques are not well described by the terms 'Brainwashing' and 'Demonisation'. And in most circumstances it hinders understanding to use these terms. But when these techniques are applied for spreading political goals and hatred, these terms are the only words that adaquately flag the dangers.

 

Everything that has been discussed here falls under various degrees of liminal and subliminal influences, both conscious and subconscious.

 

Really? I wasn't aware of discussing pursasion techniques aimed at the conscious. I thought we agreed 'thought manipulation' was a process aimed at the subconscious by distracting the conscious with something meaningless.

 

Rapport is not just between two individuals. It occures in groups and between groups. (Analogy) How we act, subconsciously, has allot to do with how we think.

 

Rapport and the Social Alter are intimately linked, if not the same thing. It's all modes of empathy and psycho-social integration.

Perhaps I was too quick to dismiss raport. I think you are right, rapport can be used as the key to the social alter. I remember reading this now. Rapport is an adictive thing. When people bond, you want to try and keep that bond. Thus, if the pursuador were to break rapport suddenly by, say, giving an illogical argument that would be rejected by the conscious, the desire to keep rapport with the group or person is often strong enough to make others accept the argument anyway.

 

This seems the same process as the social alter. So getting rapport brings people more strongly into their social alter. I would say 'brings people into their social alter' except I think the social alter state occurs as soon as any type of human interaction occurs even if rapport has not been established. Having said that, perhaps this may be the desire to create rapport in the first place.

 

Conclusion: definately a link. Not 100% sure the exact nature of the link. I think I'm close but I'm tired. :)

 

I have to ask, sebby, how do you know that you have not been influenced into acting the way you do?

Very deep. :hihi:

 

I must say that brainwashing cannot be so loose and mild. Perhaps we could merely call this psychological advertising/compelling.

 

In my opinion, the more stronger methods and procedures of psychological-thought reform must be brought under the extreme sounding word 'brainwashing'

 

The techniques used in the above posts, as KickAssClown and I have been discussing, are exactly the same as that used in Brainwashing. See above.

 

However, I'm not sure people have spotted the very subtle Brainwashing / thought reform used in the McDonalds add. This add is telling people that McDonalds is fair and impartial and respects debate and criticism on the conscious level. However, it is also saying that their meat IS very healthy and almost perfect, but only at the subconscious level. Can you see how?

 

Clue, search for emotion. Emotion is the grass behind which the brainwashing hides.

 

A definate quality point to the first person who can find it.

 

Tomorrow, I will also post all the thought reform techiques I included in my letter and the single one used in the McDonalds ad if nobody does so first.

[ughaibu]

Describing McDonalds ads as brainwashing is a trivialising abuse of the term, it's sensationalistic and a form of crying wolf. Here's an introduction to the subject: http://www.dicksutphen.com/html/battlemind.html

[sebbysteiny]

Describing McDonalds ads as brainwashing is a trivialising abuse of the term, it's sensationalistic and a form of crying wolf. Here's an introduction to the subject:

 

Wrong end of stick you've got, me thinks. We've been discussing which of brainwashing or thought reform is a more appropriate term for almost 1 1/2 pages now. The point is advertising executives use the same techniques as the fanatical preachers and the McDonalds add was about the most subtle one I've seen.

 

Your link was good. I think it confirms we are pretty much correct so far. Eg stage 1 is just using the social alter, attempt to get rapport, group psychology (3 ways of describing the same thing). It also adds a couple of interesting new ways of accessing the subconscius. For example demonisation, or emotive arguments (where you give a non-important argument to distract the conscious whilst letting emotive words attach to particular objects [eg hate to the demonised party] on a subconscious level) can be done by using emotive music rather than emotive words. But the mechanism is the same.

[sebbysteiny]

The answers to all the brainwashing in the above two example. Starting first with the McDonalds add.

 

Who knows, you may even decide to apply to become a Quality Scout, and end up pulling on wellies to visit some of our farms and suppliers.

 

This is the key to the advert. 'pulling on wellies to visit ... our farms and suppliers'. Why would one need to do this. It is implied from this statement that the Quality Scout would have to go through fresh countryside farms to see McDonalds farms. This further implies that the cows are fresh high quality cows living freely in the countryside chewing grass. Of course the conscious misses this subtle implication, but the picture of pulling on wellies and wondering through perfect cow farms makes its point straight to the subconscious.

 

Genious.

 

Now my post.

 

Hey Angela,

 

On [some date], Becki, me and YOU are meeting for drinks.

 

This (not so subtle) statement implies that she is going to accept the invitation and it is just a matter of arrangements. She can still see probably though this but its slightly cheeky nature is sufficient for it to work anyway (the humour distracts the conscious defences).

 

We will be meeting at

Notice the word 'will' implies she has already accepted the invite.

and will probably be having a group ego massage saying how great we all are for [some accumplishment we all did] and

Now, not only is her acceptance assumed, but now she WILL also have an 'ego massage' WHEN she comes (and who objects to an ego massage?). The word "probably" is a word whose intention is to distract the subconscious but to the picture (of her attending and having a great time) in her mind and thus to her subconscious is very real and certain.

 

and you might find yourself looking forward to this immensely.

This is a hypnotic comand for her to look forward to the meeting immensely. Again the term 'and you might find' distracts the conscious from this hypnotic command. Had I used the words 'and I want you to look forward to this immensely', the conscious would filter out the command as it is too obvious, but the 'and you mind find' seems harmless and so bypasses the conscious defences.

 

PS: the first quote is good, psychologically well directed. I think I'll use it myself.

 

I'm glad to help. Use it wisely my young Jedi. Beware the power of the darkside. But it may cost you a second of your time to give me a quality point :).

[IDMclean]

Here's the fallacy, that I see with the arguement for brainwashing and demonization. They attach emotional connotations, and thereby obscure the objective meaning.

 

Ascribing good and bad to a terms is to give it emotional conceptualization. A fact is without these concepts, a fact is what it is and no more.

 

Brainwashing and demonization are terms for appeal to emotional bias, illicting a responce of aprehension and fear. Amongst others. They are terms of the very thing they obfuscate. The terms are influencing on the objective reasoning of the individual.

[Southtown]

I agree. 'Emotional reasoning' is brainwashing. For those who have seen my bad side, you may have seen that I usually get slightly offencive when confronted by emotional reasoning for this reason, hence the number of neg rep points I've recieved, but this comes with the territory :confused:. I think we have already dealt with this type of brainwashing though. The main question here is, how does it work?

K, how 'bout this. Emotional reasoning is the associating of a questionable concept with a predetermined concept for the purpose of determining the nature of the questionable concept without the use of logic.

 

E.g., repeated scene-switches in Fahrenheit 911 between American soldiers enjoying their off hours and the war carnage of Arab-looking civilians. No information is given about said scenes. We are merely left to assume that a) the American soldiers have actually experienced combat before, b) the American soldiers have any knowledge of the Arab carnage, c) the Arab carnage was cause by American soldiers and not terrorists prevalent in the region, d) the Arab carnage was caused by the same American soldiers that are in the previous scenes.

 

Logically, these are big assumptions. And they are overlooked because the audience is purposefully overwhelmed with conflicting emotional surges. Even though the film merely suggests a relation between concepts instead of proving such a relation, the audience is moved to accept it by desire instead of logic.

[Southtown]

Here's the fallacy, that I see with the arguement for brainwashing and demonization. They attach emotional connotations, and thereby obscure the objective meaning.

 

Ascribing good and bad to a terms is to give it emotional conceptualization. A fact is without these concepts, a fact is what it is and no more.

 

Brainwashing and demonization are terms for appeal to emotional bias, illicting a responce of aprehension and fear. Amongst others. They are terms of the very thing they obfuscate. The terms are influencing on the objective reasoning of the individual.

So what do you suggest?

[sebbysteiny]

Here's the fallacy, that I see with the arguement for brainwashing and demonization. They attach emotional connotations, and thereby obscure the objective meaning.

 

I suggest using your termanology of 'thought reform' and 'emotional based arguements' for most uses.

 

However when it comes to using 'thought reform' for bringing people into a dangerous ideology or cult where their mind by the standards of reasonable observers have become warped in that they are willing to commit horrific acts based on perverse reasoning, then 'brainwashing' becomes the most accurate and best term to use. Similarly, where emotional based arguements are aimed at producing hate, 'demonisation' is the correct word.

 

Are we in agreement? If not, do you at least get the point I am making?

[IDMclean]

Your terms, I understand what you mean by them. If you wish to use them that is your choice. I will be using objective terms such as "thought reform" through out to describe psychological manipulation.

[sebbysteiny]

Your terms, I understand what you mean by them. If you wish to use them that is your choice. I will be using objective terms such as "thought reform" through out to describe psychological manipulation.

 

Great. Okay so we understand the termonology.

 

But would you describe rational and logical manipulation as brainwashing.

 

Because this is how I think brainwashing (eg cults and terror groups) works. Every level of indoctrination requires accepting some argument, belief or value that would be instantly rejected by the logical side of the brain. This is, as you describe, the psychological thought reform process.

 

Then, once that argument is accepted, alot logically flows from the new illogical premise.

 

Eg, that one civilian life is equivilent to another no matter the situation in which that civilian is killed. This can be used to ignore the difference between terrorism and legitimate self defence and portray the terrorists as misunderstood rather than terrorists. It allows the holder to form tremendous sypathy to terrorists which could in tern be used to cause brainwashee to be open to the next level. All of this flows logically from the original argument.

 

Then, when another argument is needed to be swallowed for the next level, then one goes back to thought reform. This brings people to the next level. Eg, the Quoran must be interpretted litterally in all situations. From this it logically follows that death by myrterdom is a great act that guarantees happiness for you and your family and friends in the afterlife as well as 72 virgins etc.

 

And so on up all the levels until the person is a committed terrorist.

 

Thus, brainwashing works by installing a number of particular illogical or perverse beliefs by thought reform and then following those beliefs to their natural conclusion in a concentrated fashion (eg repeating the process for weeks in an intense camp).