Tormod Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by: sanctusOriginally posted by: IrishEyesSanctus, it's GREAT to see you back. Where have you been??? I've been travelling by bike trough europe.... Okay, now you go STRAIGHT to the Watercooler and tell us how it was! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindagarrette Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 Sanctus, I suppose I was being somwhat arrogant by calling it "Worldwide Capitalism," although that's the current image from my point of view. Nevertheless, I keep reminding everyone that gloabaization is not a "movement" to be in favor of or opposed to. It is an economic reality of our society caused mainly by progress and advancement of technology with roots in the basic nature of our species. The unfortunate result so far, has been to widen the gap between the rich and the poor. This is indisputable and the reason is unrestricted market activities of the powerful. There is no altruism in it and not even any far-thinking generosity. We are a year to year profit oriented world. Business owners (including stockholders) don't believe in charity unless there is an advantage, either through tax or advertising. The extremely poor and downtrodden people of the world receive relatively little attention from other than humanitarian organizations which operate far the most part, outside, and generally, in direct defiance of the globalized businesses. Global corporations have to exploit every cost reduction opportunity, at whatever expense to those not immediately benefiting. I'm not opposed to globalization. What would be the alternative? I just wish it would have led us in a different social direction. But given our nature and relative youth in existance on the planet, that's not likely. Perhaps the more mature we become, the more we will think of each other as part of our family rather than competitors. Linda For the record, again, I'm a libertarian socialist by political philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by: sanctusAs it seems to be a dead post now I allow myself to return to an earlier point in the discussion, where lindagarette states:It's very discouraging that most of you seem so confused about globalization. The currently accepted definition is a free market economic system without country borders. (Worldwide capitalism.) I agree with your definition, until you write the thing in brackets "worldwide capitalism". A "free market economic system without country borders" has not to be a capitalistic system, it's very easy to imagine a globale welfare state for example based on that system and that would still be globalization. Or an economy based on exchange could still be "free market ... borders"Nor does Globalization have to be an open altrusitic one. It does not have to be a "free market". Look at the current US admin's efforts. Preemptive attacks against and occupation of a Secular Democracy. Yes Iraq was a worst case example of one, but it WAS Secular and it was a Democracy (even if Saddam was the only one allowed to run, they did hold elections). Then non-bid contracts given to alligned copanies that support the Admin and even had current Admin members as their CEO. Now to pretend there will be free elections in order to force the US's chosen leaders into power. Fascism, US Admin style, spreading thru the usage of military force and economic pressure is one very possible method of Globalization. Even a dictatorship with supreme ruler is a form of Globalization. What you defined is the current globalization, but not the globalization itself. Again, that's why I'm not against globalization (there are very many good ways of having a globalized world that wouldn't make the poor poorer and the rich richer), just against the way it is now. Globalization is an ultimate reality. There is little question that we will eventually have one top level authority over the entire earth. That all people will be connected thru some supreme authority. It is only a guess that Capitalism or any form of Free Market will be the eventual authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Martin Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 Freethinker,Could you please tell me how a country composed of mostly shiite and suny muslims is in your opinion secular? And how is a totalitarian dictatorship a democracy in your eyes? These are very curious remarks that you make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 Originally posted by: Uncle MartinFreethinker,Could you please tell me how a country composed of mostly shiite and suny muslims is in your opinion secular?How is a country composed mainly of Christians considered a Secular Country? Hopefully without dragging the discussion into how bad of a man Saddam was, his government was SECULAR and DEMOCRATIC. This is an established FACT. These were some of the reasons Osama was as against Saddam as he was the US. "Ahmed Souaiaia, a lecturer in Northeast Languages and Civilization at the University of Washington,...“(Saddam) more victimized people who opposed his government, like gassing the Kurds. There was no tension because he did not preach. It was a socialist secular government and if he oppressed anyone, he oppressed those who disagreed with his policies.”"April 21, 2003Saddam Hussein - Religious or Political?By ERIN DRISCOLLhttp://courses.washington.edu/com361/Iraq/religion/saddam_political.htmlAnd how is a totalitarian dictatorship a democracy in your eyes? These are very curious remarks that you make."Saddam Hussein1995...Saddam is re-elected as Iraq's president."http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/people/shows/saddam/timeline.html Women did not have to cover themselves and were free to go to school and work as they wished. It is direct evidence that we could have overthrown Saddam through legal election process in Iraq. It had the mechanism. The people had the will. G Bush Sr walked away from Iraqi's trying that immediately after the 1st Gulf War. Let them be slaughtered after promising to support their efforts. So we hear that "Saddam gassed his own people". People WE enticed to rebel against him and then deserted. And the gass Saddam used he bought from the US in negotiations with Rumsfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 freethinker argues just to argue. "It is direct evidence that we could have overthrown Saddam through legal election process in Iraq. It had the mechanism. The people had the will. G Bush Sr walked away from Iraqi's trying that immediately after the 1st Gulf War. Let them be slaughtered after promising to support their efforts. So we hear that "Saddam gassed his own people". People WE enticed to rebel against him and then deserted. And the gass Saddam used he bought from the US in negotiations with Rumsfield." if people like you would stop bitching everytime we go to war and let us finish we would have no need to go back. you really think the people could have voted saddam out? if so your as crazy as he was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 funny how the same people who say " People WE enticed to rebel against him and then deserted" are the same people that whined about us being there. it might not be the best way but if we pull out again now, you dont think that 1,000's of people we support there now will be killed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 by the way freethinker anyone who has more posts than the person who runs this thing has waytomuch time on their hands and needs to do something a little more productive than spending that much time writing to us. why dont you write to your congressman and do something with all thecrap you talk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyjby the way freethinker anyone who has more posts than the person who runs this thing has waytomuch time on their hands and needs to do something a little more productive than spending that much time writing to us. why dont you write to your congressman and do something with all thecrap you talk Hey hey hey, rileyj, THAT one is uncalled for. You *challenged* Freethinker to respond and you got what you asked for! The number of posts I have stems from 2 and a half years of posting so my posts-per-day count is not that high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyjif people like you would stop bitching everytime we go to war and let us finish we would have no need to go back.At what point do we stop killing people? How many are enough to "have no need to go back." How many other countries? Give us all the list of ethnicities, countries and religions and number of people total. How much money do we suck out of the Economy, out of Education, out of Health Services, food programs? How much is it worth for us to have killed all these evil evil peole? How many more are we creating along the way? Ya people should stop bitching and just let us slaughter whomever whereever till we figure we've killed enough that "we would have no need to go back." Give us all the list of ethnicities, countries and religions and number of people total. Now there is Globalization! Kill em all and let god sort em out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyjyou really think the people could have voted saddam out? if so your as crazy as he wasWell good chance we'll get to find out! But not the way Bush is claiming right now. Forget the etheral promise of the Jan election! Look how the faked elections went in Afghanastan! While most media was covering it up, giving it a happy face... "Candidates call for halt to Afghan elections Fourteen candidates in Afghanistan's presidential elections - including the top rival to President Hamid Karzai - called today for the vote to be halted because of irregularities, candidates and aides said. "To prevent fraud in the process of the election, Mr Qanooni wants the election immediately stopped," his aide told AFP. Thirteen other candidates also called for the election to be halted, saying it was not legitimate, candidate Abdul Satar Sirat said, claiming to speak on behalf of the others. "We 14 candidates announce that the election should be stopped immediately," he told reporters after a meeting at his house in Kabul. "http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200410/s1216608.htm But who has Saddam right now? Do you know? "Iraqi PM: Saddam to be transferred WednesdayU.S. to hand over legal custody; ex-leader to face judge MSNBC News ServicesUpdated: 8:21 a.m. ET June 29, 2004 BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraq's Prime Minister Iyad Allawi declared that Saddam Hussein will be handed over to Iraqi custody on Wednesday" http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5314794/ That's right, Saddam is in Iraq's hands. And if we allowed a true and open election right now in Iraq, it would not end up with an American Style Democracy! The extremists have moved in and taken over. There are large sections, entire cities, in Iraq that are under "insurgent " control, NOT US. We have less control now than we did when Dubya pretneded to land a plane on on an air craft carrier just off the shore of San Deigo (pretending it was in active service) and claimed "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyjfunny how the same people who say " People WE enticed to rebel against him and then deserted" are the same people that whined about us being there. it might not be the best way but if we pull out again now, you dont think that 1,000's of people we support there now will be killed?Yep, there goes moral justification if I ever heard it! So we never found the claimed WMD!, or any existing facilities to build them in. Or active plans of development, since 1991! The war is justified because thousands more will be slaughtered if we left! It DOES show that those of us that were right about the WMD's in the first place ARE the same ones " that whined about us being there"/. And those that were WRONG got us in it anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyjif people like you would stop bitching everytime we go to war and let us finish we would have no need to go back. you really think the people could have voted saddam out? if so your as crazy as he was Is this a representative opinion of the US democracy? That "we" go to war and anyone who opposes the idea is "bitching" and "crazy"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyjneeds to do something a little more productive than spending that much time writing to us. why dont you write to your congressman and do something with all thecrap you talkI have a large collection of responses from my Congressmen in response to my letters and calls. I have had scheduled appoinments with various orgs (including Common Cause and Moveon) and my Congressmen. Action items included support for the Judicial Filibuster and FCC removal of ownership rules. In fact I was Howard Dean's chaufer while he was in my state. Ate dinner with him with TV cameras all over. Was on TV twice whie campaigning. Tonight I was at the Kerry call center till almost 9:00, including a phone call with Ted Kennedy to our group. I am Ward Leader for the Kerry campaign and a Deputized Voter Registrar. That besides running my own company and a single father of 4. Now, you were saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Oh ya, forgot, President of local FreeThought org for over 7 years. Marched with 2 of my kids in the Godless American's March a few years back in bewteen things. You know, when I had nothing else to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Originally posted by: TormodIs this a representative opinion of the US democracy? That "we" go to war and anyone who opposes the idea is "bitching" and "crazy"?It would unfortunately seem like it IS the view of 48% of the US pop based on Bush supporters right now. In PATRIOT ACT II, if he had been able to push it through, was a law that would have allowed the Exec branch to arbitrarily name any org a terrorist supporting org and anyone that even had just sent them a check as a contribution, even not knowing quite what they were, could be arrested, had their citizenship removed (even if born in the US) and sent to some other country. Even if the other country didn't want them. Seriously! They tried to get away with that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Martin Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 The idiot child wants to impose "democracy" on people who not only don't want it, they are not capable of maintaining it. Freedom has a hefty price tag, it is hard work. Alot of people are not willing to pay the price of freedom and it is not our business to push it on them. What scares me most is that dubya is doing this in the name of god, and the people that are actually pulling his strings are letting him run with it because it helps them with their goal of more oil and more money. My cousin is in the "national" guard,... just did a year in Iraq, got to come home for two weeks then its off to fight for oil and money again,... until dubya decides he's got enough. HA! Like a republican could ever have enough. A forty year old father of three should not be risking being beheaded for Bush's desire to own everything. Since when is it justified riley for us to invade and "occupy" a sovereign nation that has never threatened us? Never done us any harm? Is it OK since god told the idiot child to do it? Get real! Sorry, I know this is getting off topic, should maybe pick it up in the Bush thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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