Tim_Lou Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 miracles, somthing explainable happens. and is generally referring to a "good thing".do you believe in miracles?do miracles exist? are they invovled in some "higher" energy?have you had a miracles or some story you wanna share? i believed that miracles DO happen, and it did happen to my grandpa....and it is amazingi will tell you guys a true miracle about my grandpa... dont have time now, maybe tomorrow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Martin Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 There are no such thing as miracles Tim. I'm assuming your English is less than perfect and you meant to say "unexplainable things". You are seriously testing my new found powers with this one!! Tell us about miracles and provide evidence!!! Evidence or face my wrath. Miracles? Really? C'mon. This is a science forum Tim. Your evidence had better be truly impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Actually any event he can provide can either be exlained by statistical probablity, things happen to people, or natural process which had benefitial timing. It is called "Anecdotal" evidence. Anectodal Evidence - " based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers " Merriam-Webster Online The reality is that with so many people doing so many things, "**** happens". Statistically a certai number of events are going to happen. I can guess at any number of things Tim's G'pa went thru. And I am happy to hear he came thru it well. Or so the story sounds so far. But we need predictablity. Shows us specific causality and the mechanism it uses. It will be interesting to hear the whle story, including this type of evaluation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Yes, Tim. Give us the story, I'd love to hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lou Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 ok, dont wanna type much... : couple years b4, my grandpa was found to have lung cancer (bad ones),after the surgery (not very sucessful), he keeps getting weaker... a couple months b4, it was said that he would die in about a month,my mom was really sad... due to economic problems, only my mom and dad could go back to china to see grandpa's "last face"... my mom told me:After my grandpa knows that hes gonna die, he went back to the place where hes born (from city to country side), there, he refuesed any treatments... (the doctors were strongly disagreed with his idea)...but well, he went...there were couple of nights that he almost left... he said that he didnt wanta live b/c it was too painful...the cancer went up to his brain and legs.... later, one of the friend of some relativities suggested to try some special stuffs, to eat some special type of plants.... after about 1 month, he was still living, and keeps getting better...my mom and dad left and travelled back to US... now, my mom could still talk to him through telephone...and my grandpa didnt go back to that hospital or see any doctor...he stays in his old house and live... although he seems to have brain problems after all these... its already a miracle that he survived... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lou Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 ppl always say that ppl are lying...miracles are impossible... but when it does happen to you or your love,you know it. i believe that it did happen to my grandpa, yet, i have no proof, but i knew it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lou Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 btw, my mom tasted some of those special plants,and she had a stomachache for 2 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Martin Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 How exactly can you relate medicinal plants with divine intervention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lou Posted July 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 well, i never said it was involved w/ higher energy...(maybe what i mean is really "unexplainable things") definiation of miracle:"An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God" isnt it supernatural that a man that is said to be dead in days survived?at least it is supernatural to "our nature"... a man in the last stage of lung cancer actually survived, isnt it wonderful?ppl hear these stories all the time, now im touching it, knowing it and seeing it happened! our science, seems wonderful!but no matter how far it gets,the nature is superior...we were worried about grandpa refusing to stay in hospital and stopped all the "modern" treatments...now it seems that he was actually right, going back to the nature really helped him... (....this is really not a aruging topic, just to share some stores...) btw, have any of you guys experienced such thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wisdumn Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 even if they did experience a miracle Tim, they would just probably chalk it up to luck. because science can really prove luck...NOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 Originally posted by: wisdumneven if they did experience a miracle Tim, they would just probably chalk it up to luck. because science can really prove luck...NOT! A MIRACLE would actually be fairly self evident. It would be something that violates the known laws of physics on an individual basis. People that are desperate to believe, always want to make up reasons for others not being suckered into accepting coincidence as a miracle. Add to that the massive number of supposed miracles that are shown to be outright frauds and there is little wonder that miracle claims are rejected by anyone capable of the constant application of reason and logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 not to believe in miracles is take away of science as such..... all the " by chance " finds owe the thanks to some thing that causes this miracles .... commonly named " god " .....as you have mentioned miracles are often the "good" ones and if it brings some sorrow the are the act of something called fate.....miracles are rather like rains ....they come at the most unexpectedv time either causing havoc or for the good of someone...... yes of course this is a science form but science owes a lot to miracles or else how do you explain the rather loosely bound theory of big bang.... a huge mass sudden explosion practical for no discovered reason.........if that isnt a miracle what is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 Sage, welcome to our group. But I have to say, you have a twisted idea of what SCIENCE is. A "Miracle" is something that VIOLATES the SCIENTIFIC process. And if you want to lump all the things that happen "by chance" as coming from "god", then this god is responsible for the millions that die horrible painful deaths every day. How wonderful your "god" is. But let's make it easy. Show us ANY event that is proven to be a MIRACLE. Just one will do for a start. Something that lacks a NATURAL explanation for it. ANYTHING. Just ONE! And if you want to discuss the Big Bang, there are other forums for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Martin Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 Originally posted by: wisdumneven if they did experience a miracle..... they would just probably chalk it up to luck. because science can really prove luck...NOT!First, there are no miracles. Prove me wrong!Second, there is no such thing as luck. Many people confuse probability with "luck". Many people confuse knowledge and preparedness with "luck". These are incorrect associations. Science can make predictions with good precision based on probabilities. Individuals can increase their odds of success through knowledge and thorough preparation. To put it in words you'll appreciate, YES, science can "prove luck".So, your entire post is incorrect. Or were you just unlucky? You can always wait for a "miracle". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 Show us ANY event that is proven to be a MIRACLE. Just one will do for a start. Something that lacks a NATURAL explanation for it. ANYTHING. Just ONE! Miracle are rather science in annon understandable form ........ it may even be noted that the origin of life as such is a mysterios miracle ( of course we have the darwin theory but it aint foolproof ) ......... then about the millions that die daily they are not treated horribly rather they get an earlier visa to heaven ...we must be happy that god has chose millions to accompany him in heaven .....also it is a natural process by which god does csome check on the greatest disaster -"the population boom"..... thanks uncle martin for ur lecture on luck ... i do agree with u ...... for some people has to be "in the mood " to do something creative and this mood also affect there decision ...so luck decidies the mood for if u have good luck u will be in good moods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Martin Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 Originally posted by: sage........ it may even be noted that the origin of life as such is a mysterios miracle ( of course we have the darwin theory but it aint foolproof ) .........You have much to learn my friend. Biogenesis and Darwinian evolution are not anywhere close to being similar. That is what the creationists like to ramble on about. Even IrishEyes' husband's mathematical proof of god is based on biogenesis, not evolution.(I make this assumption based on other posts) Evolution is a well documented, substantiated fact. We call it a theory because it is open to scrutiny and revision should new evidence come forth. New evidence would likely strengthen the theory. The origin of life is another matter. There is much that we do not know at present. That does not mean that we should make up an answer that suits our purpose, or makes us feel better. Not knowing is less than contenting, but it is alright. There is no miracle in life, it is all around us, I propose that life on planet Earth is rather ordinary and very common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishEyes Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 Even IrishEyes' husband's mathematical proof of god is based on biogenesis, not evolution. Unc, Mr. Irish's 'proof' is not based on evolution, you're correct. As I understand it, it is based on the improbability of abiogenesis actually happening. However, I think I understand what sage is trying to explain. I also understand the desire for people to use correct terminology, but I also think that THAT is asking way too much for simplified conversations sometimes. While I understand and appreciate the difference between abiogenesis and darwinian evolution, and I also know that they are not really interchangeable terms, I also understand that they are usually used interchangably. *Many* people will use the word "evolution" when trying to explain the origin of life. I propose that in this PHILOSOPHY thread, we dispense with the long corrections unless the transposition clearly causes serious confusion or misrepresentation of the facts. In this case, what was said by sage really doesn't make a bit of difference as it was the opinion of sage, that the origin of life was a miracle. It wasn't stated as a fact, but as an opinion. Can we all agree that it really doesn't make a difference in this case, but that the difference between abiogenesis and evolution would be a great thread to start int he EVOLUTION forum?? As for this topic... Tim, it sounds like your grandfather is being healed in a very natural, unscientific way, as would have been done hundreds of years ago, before 'medical advancements'. While it may very well seem miraculous to you and your family, it does not mean that it is a miracle. FreeT and Unc are both right in that a miracle should defy the laws of science. If it doesn't, then it isn't really a miracle. Of course, if you are a religious person and believe that God still performs miracles on a daily basis, just give us some examples... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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