Rsade Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 We live our lives in the past , never in the “present” of real space time. Our entire reality is distorted by this fact. This illusion is due to the constraints of the speed of light including time dilation to a very small although important part of this revelation. Also, the snail pace of nerve pluses (about 750 mph, if I remember correctly) complete our minds lie that we are, in fact, living in the present ! In addition everyone of us experiences and perceives the “present moment” differently than does the observer (You). So we now have no one living in the present moment along with everone having a separate and dinstinct space time line in the universe. All of the above is important because it creates the foundation of the illusion of what we call reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 In addition everyone of us experiences and perceives the “present moment” differently than does the observer (You). So we now have no one living in the present moment along with everone having a separate and dinstinct space time line in the universe. Yet we all see it as the same thing. The present moment is the only place we ever are... as individuals, as society... that's where we exist, and only there. And others? They are in their now as well... There's another intersting thread on this topic... my first ever post, in fact, with a subject line "Moments and Events." Maybe you could read through that and offer a new perspective, Rsade. It's entertaining trying to figure this out. Thanks for sharing. Cheers. :hihi: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkain101 Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 If you had a race to a distant star between two ships. One that traveled .9C and another that traveled 200,000km/h. Is it not true they would both arrive at the distant star at the same year? Even though they get there a totally different times? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 If you had a race to a distant star between two ships. One that traveled .9C and another that traveled 200,000km/h. Is it not true they would both arrive at the distant star at the same year? Even though they get there a totally different times?Depends on how far away the star is. 200,000 km/h is roughly .66c... Also, when they arrive, they will arrive "now." Hmmm... curiouser and curiouser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsade Posted February 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Sorry about the delayed response, my e mail notification is only working intermittently...Well nice thought experiment. I think that if both space craft left earth (actually this race gets interesting if you include an earth based observer and even more interesting if you put an observer on the distant star..and even more interesting than that if this starchild observer has an instant information exchange (think Quantum entanglement tell a scope heh) . Ok, both craft start out and accelerate up to speed at the same rate. The first reaches the lets use InfiniteNow's figure of .66c, the second one would overtake (lets say they were accelerating at one earth g) of course the two astronauts would see the same thing as the first craft overtook the slower one...however things would get strange as relativistic effects become obvious at velocities of . 99c and above. These strange effects occur exponentially after .99c. The observer on earth would see the slower craft being over taken (if he lived long enough, because the crafts would appear to go slower and slower. As the fast ship passed the slow ship and accelerated to near c it would appear to the earth bound observer to have stopped. this is because time of the effects of time dilation. I think I got that right and didn't get anything turned around. BTW the astronaut in the fast ship if he could see his earth buddy would see years pass faster and faster like seconds then nano seconds if he could accelerate to say 99^10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Ok, both craft start out and accelerate up to speed at the same rate. The first reaches the lets use InfiniteNow's figure of .66c, the second one would overtake (lets say they were accelerating at one earth g) of course the two astronauts would see the same thing as the first craft overtook the slower one...however things would get strange as relativistic effects become obvious at velocities of . 99c and above. These strange effects occur exponentially after .99c. The observer on earth would see the slower craft being over taken (if he lived long enough, because the crafts would appear to go slower and slower. As the fast ship passed the slow ship and accelerated to near c it would appear to the earth bound observer to have stopped. this is because time of the effects of time dilation."of course the two astronauts would see the same thing "No. They wouldn't. Think of the example of a train passing by a station. You throw a tennis ball inside the train car. That ball does not look the same to an observer on the stations platform as it does to an observer on the train. Interesting thought on the second half of your statement. I realize my understanding of it all is still too limited to make any intelligent comments right now, so I'll just leave it as an interesting thought for me to untangle for myself. The language is throwing me off a bit, but I'll chew on it for a while. Cheers. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 this is because time of the effects of time dilation. I think I got that right and didn't get anything turned around. BTW the astronaut in the fast ship if he could see his earth buddy would see years pass faster and faster like seconds then nano seconds if he could accelerate to say 99^10. Okay... got it. Phew. The observer on Earth does not see the spaceship "freeze" due to time dilation (at least, not explicitly). The freezing is due to the infinite redshift the light is experiencing. The faster the spaceship goes, and the nearer to c it gets, the more shifted the light from the ship will be toward the red, longer wavelength end of the spectrum... it's just like the Doppler effect. Heck, I think it is the doppler effect... Anyway, the light becomes so redshifted that it loses nearly all of it's energy, and becomes so dim that we cannot see it back on Earth. The second part is correct too... the space traveler would see (if s/he were able) folks on Earth in an extreme fast forwarded state. I think what's throwing me is the time dilation aspect as it relates to the how the ship is viewed from Earth. I know the redshift part to be correct, and also that the time dilation is occurring, but am having a tough time seeing time dilation as the reason the ship appears still... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsade Posted February 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Weird stuff indeed. Actually my original intent was to show that because of the the sped of light being the fastest information exchange possible , we could never live in the real moment! Its only the very short distances, and the very slow motion (relative to the observer) ,that makes the real moment seem real , present moment seem like the real time present. when if fact , the rest of the universe has moved on …in my opinion! ; } > Sounds like mumbo jumbo double speak, however, if you think about it I beleive that I am correct... I welcome any comments, and all have been so far, interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsade Posted February 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 of course the two astronauts would see the same thing as the first craft overtook the slower one...as the first craft over took the slower one You left out the most important part of my statement. So yes they would see the same thing at the moment the faster craft passed the slower craft its speed would be the same relative to the observers in both crafts so their speed and time would be the same for that moment. I hope this clarified my obscure statement for you my friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkain101 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 My strange idea was, can a faster ship really beat you to a distant star with the regular view on time dialation. There seems to me to have to be a few requirements to come along with time being dialated. -if you are to travel into the future (because your time was slown down) equally and oppositly the surroundings will be sped up. Other wise how are you going to expect to get ahead in time if the true physical operation of your surroundings dont get ahead of you. (so would the slower ship end up catching up and passing you once significant time dialation kicked in.. even though according to the slow ship you will have gotten to the destination way before. Yet, the problem i see is, how can they get there close to the same time when the slower ship feels it hasnt even left earth yet. All the while the ship experiencing slow time would have to require to see the slow ship act in a fast forwarded time, in order for any time dialation to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkain101 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 I meant to add that I have been thinking of time dialation, and I think it could be misinterpreted. I wonder if it could be atomic action at a distance operation fluction. Something of this role, where time is no factor but meerly, the atoms of a faster moving object begin interacting slower, faking that they travel into time.Can we really predict what happens to a person if they were to experience time dialation. A satalite is one thing, and the calculations seem to be accurate. But will a consciousness/mind actually act as we predict when there is not much scientificly explaining it in the first place.. I think I will read up more on relativity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsade Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 if you are to travel into the future (because your time was slown down) equally and oppositly the surroundings will be sped up. [/Quote] It sounds crazy doesn’t it? What you might want to think about is that everybodys time runs normally according to them. (see note one). So your time is the same according to you, this doesn’t matter if you are going at 1 kps or 200000kps. Other wise how are you going to expect to get ahead in time if the true physical operation of your surroundings dont get ahead of you.[/Quote] I am not sure that I understand what you are saying here. But the easy way to visulize this is just think there are three people in this experiment one observer on earth (who can watch everything) and the two astronauts one in a slow ship and the other in a faster ship. (so would the slower ship end up catching up and passing you once significant time dialation kicked in.. even though according to the slow ship you will have gotten to the destination way before.)[/Quote] I hope I get this right If I am wrong I hope someone corrects me as it is early and I am somewhat compromised this morning with Ahhhh‘…sacrament…and some pain meds a crush injury. I may have been wrong in my original answer when I think of it. Ok…If both ships were accelerating at the same rate (even though their top speed was different ) the faster ship if launched after the second would not catch the slower ship untill the slower ship arrived. Now if the accelartaion rates were different the one ship would overtake the second ship, according to the observer on earth Yet, the problem I see is, how can they get there close to the same time when the slower ship feels it hasn’t even left earth yet. All the while the ship experiencing slow time would have to require to see the slow ship act in a fast forwarded time, in order for any time dialation to happen.[/Quote] Ahhh’! now you are talking about something profound if I read your post right. Your question I think is dealing with a topic that I like. Are you taklking about time as the universe experiences it? You see the universe is the foruth “observer” in this experiment, and it experiences time differently than the two astronauts or the earth bound observer. I think of the universe as a information processing device and god as the fourth observer. I will clarify any of the above , or try to if you will give me a specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsade Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 I wonder if it could be atomic action at a distance operation fluction There are some fine books on general Relativity. But I think you might be more interested in quantum entanglement (which deals with real time as I call it) or instant information change, i.e. faster than light info exchange. I don’t like the math associated with these theories including the elegant geometry of A.E’s universe. The publisher of Stephen Hawkins first best seller (a brief history of time) told him for every equation he put in the book would lose half of his readership! And a fine book it was without the math! When I read for entertainment (not studies or tech manuals) I like my science to be entertaining and as mathless’ as possible! So get yourself a couple of good books on the subject (the internet has too much information errors for my tastes and I feel that book remain the best and most accurate information we have). let me know how it goes brother ( I am a open theist christian) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 The faster ship gets there first.The slower ship gets there second.The rate of travel for the faster ship relative to the surrounding universe is not changed by time dilation.The travelers on the faster ship would have aged less than the travelers on the slower ship upon arrival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsade Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 The faster ship gets there first.The slower ship gets there second.The rate of travel for the faster ship relative to the surrounding universe is not changed by time dilation.The travelers on the faster ship would have aged less than the travelers on the slower ship upon arrival. Yes, that is obvious if the faster ship leaves first and the acceleration is the same up to Max velocity, say 32 ft per sec. Per SEC (one g) . The question is what if the slow craft leaves first has say, a half way head start, what would the astronaut see on the faster craft, and how would his time run according to the observers, what would the slower astronaut see and how would his time pass (of course all would perceive THEIR time running normally even at near c speed) ... Ahhhh, what would the observer on earth see (both crafts going so slow as to appear to be motionless at high past say 99^% of c relativistic speeds and his time) and what would the ET see on a planet going round the target sun or star. We aren’t even considering the energy effecting the gravity around the ship (energy = mass blah blah blah). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rsade Posted February 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 universe is not changed by time dilation. Yes, and that is one of the main things, the meat of General theory of relativity, I feel. However, the way we mortal, we very short lived mortals, perceive the universe is warped by (the illusion of) time, and the effects its preceived elastic and warpable tearable nature! Include the observers position relative to what he is comparing himself to, his and its gravity, mass, energy, and it starts getting a bit complicated! Heh, talk about reference frame dragging (a term for a massive object dragging space time with it in its local area, that's a very broad def.) that is mind dragging... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 It clearly wasn't obvious to all posters. If you had an understanding of those points already, then fantastic. I taught myself by reading. Try this link which I found by Googling "Introduction to time dilation:"http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/TwinParadox/twin_intro.html And read the story about Stella and Terrance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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