Fahrenheit 9/11

IrishEyes · July 3, 2004

Tell them shool is over. It's summer break. Teacher/ mommy is on vaction! Go fix their own lunch, and do the dishes and clothes. Scrub the floor. Beds need making. Defrost the freezer.

It doesn't fit, in this case. just as weekends really don't matter much in our lives, neither do things like summer, except to note the change in weather. we don't do 'school' any different when it gets warmer. we're trying to instill the truth that learning is not limited to a desk and 4 walls between 8am-3pm, but takes place all day, every day, all year long. thus they still have things to do, even during the summer.

Or get them their own PC?

It's not the computer, but my time that they want. Actually, they all have their own pc, either towers or laptops, depending on age and personal responsibility levels. We try to upgrade every year, and our old pc/laptop gets passed to the child with the currently oldest system. I prefer towers, while my husband like laptops, so there is a variety in the house. Plus, it's always wild to walk into the store every few months and marvel at how big you can buy a standard pc these days. A few years ago, 2 gig was HUGE. My current about-to-be-replaced model is a 120Ghz hard drive. that just blows my mind!! Now if you had said "get them their own internet connection..."

Back to the thread though, there is no theater in close proximity that is showing the flick. According to three different websites, there is no place within 45 miles showing it. To me, that would seem amazing, considering my close proximity to some pretty major eastern cities. But on reflection, it is possibly my proximity to these cities that is preventing the movie from being shown. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...talk about media control, huh? I guess I'll just have to wait until it makes it to DVD, unless Gahd wants to send me a copy of what I'm almost sure he already has?LOL...

Freethinker · July 6, 2004

Originally posted by: IrishEyes
Back to the thread though, there is no theater in close proximity that is showing the flick. According to three different websites, there is no place within 45 miles showing it. To me, that would seem amazing, considering my close proximity to some pretty major eastern cities. But on reflection, it is possibly my proximity to these cities that is preventing the movie from being shown. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...talk about media control, huh? I guess I'll just have to wait until it makes it to DVD, unless Gahd wants to send me a copy of what I'm almost sure he already has?LOL...

Yes, isn't amazing that the largest box office hit the weekend of it's release. The most succesful documentary of all times. Did so with 1/3 the number of screens of any of the competition that weekend? Talk about Corporate suppression of news. The big media conglomorates and Republican political groups have done everything they can to stop the truths of Fahrenheit 9/11 being seen by the general population.

But the almighty dollar is winning out over the desire to suppress the truth. The number of screens that Fahrenheit 9/11 is appearing on is increasing dramatically.

Want to know why Bush arranged for bin Laden to be flown out of the US days after 9/11, before his FATHER was allowed to fly anywhere? See Fahrenheit 9/11.

Want to know why a Saudi Prince was a guest at the White House on 9/12, able to watch the smoke rising out of the Pentagon from the balcony of the White House, when 17 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi citizens? Watch Fahrenheit 9/11

Want to know who financed Bush's 3 failed/ bankrupt businesses (couldn't even find oil in Texas!), named bin Lauden, watch Fahrenheit 9/11

See how Bush sat, obviously unable to make the first decision by himself, for over 7 minutes, after being told the US was under attack, see the look of utter confusion on his face waiting for an advisor to tell him what to do... Watch Fahrenheit 9/11

And that is only the begining.

IF you want to pretend Bush is not a war criminal that is destroying the US, see Spiderman.

If you care about eh US and the World and want some truth to break thru the media conglomorate lie machine, see Fahrenheit 9/11

Morpheus · July 15, 2004

Media conglomorate lie machine? Freethinker, I completely understand what you're saying. When I first saw Fahrenheit these were my exact thoughts about our government. However, after doing several days of copious research, I realized that this movie is nothing but a big lie. Welcome to the second half of Fahrenheit, the part that Moore did not want the public to see. Indeed, everything Moore wrote was factually correct. However, saying that he completely perverted the meaning of "truth" would be an understatement. This is a document I put together after much research. Let me enlighten you all:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TRUE PATRIOTS READ ON:

Here is the true story behind Fahrenheit 9/11… Moore is simply out to make money and doesn’t care when he gives the public the wrong idea by creating a completely fabricated argument. Try to read this with an open mind… You have only heard half of the story.

Note: I got almost all of this info from one of three websites, which include citations:

http://fahrenheit_fact.blogspot.com/

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

http://slate.msn.com// (Several articles from this one… search around if you want)

I hope that with this information I can help deflect the negative effect this movie will have on the polls for Bush. To be honest, I really don’t know who I want to see win this fall, but I think it is my duty to keep people aware.

I’m sure there are a LOT more flaws in this movie than I have below. If you discover anything big, let me know! If you find anything below that seems inaccurate, also please let me know!

Eric Weber ( [email protected] )

Segments of Dave Kopel’s Intro on the subject

Notwithstanding the specific falsehoods, isn't the film as a whole filled with many important truths?

- Not really. We can divide the film into three major parts. The first part (Bush, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan) is so permeated with lies that most of the scenes amount to lies. The second, shorter part involves domestic issues and the USA PATRIOT Act. So far, I've identified only one clear falsehood in this segment (Rep. Porter Goss's toll-free number). So this part, at least arguably, presents useful information. The third part, on Iraq has several outright falsehoods--such as the Saddam regime's murder of Americans, and the regime's connection with al Qaeda. Other scenes in the third part--such as Iraqi casualties, interviews with American soldiers, and the material on bereaved mother Lila Lipscomb--are not blatant lies; but the information presented is so extremely one-sided (the only Iraqi casualties are innocents, nobody in Iraq is grateful for liberation, all the American soldiers are disillusioned, except for the sadists) that the overall picture of the Iraq War is false.

Within Fahrenheit 9/11, most of rest of alleged Bush administration lies actually involve Moore's fabrications to create the appearance of a lie--such as when Moore chops a Condole

Morpheus · July 15, 2004

(CONTINUED)

Moore makes Condoleezza Rice look bad because she said that Iraq and al Quaida are connected. Here's more of that quote: "Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It’s not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York."

In one often-showed clip, Moore claims that President Bush was on vacation 42 percent of the time during his first several months in office — but that estimation included weekends at Camp David, a common practice for presidents. Without those days figured in, Bush actually spent 13 percent of his time on vacation. Also, wasn't he meeting with Tony Blair in one of those pictures? Moore shows Bush simply playing golf, but he was actually doing work.

Moore shows prominent members of the Taliban visiting Texas in 1997, implying that they were invited by then-Governor Bush. The Taliban delegation, however, was invited to Houston by UNOCAL, a California energy company. Moore also doesn't mention that the visit was made with the permission of the Clinton administration, and by 1998, as the Taliban hardened its positions, the U.S. oil company pulled out of the deal. By the time George W. Bush took office, it was a dead issue—and no longer the subject of any lobbying in Washington.

Although Moore suggested that Bush wanted to improve relations with the Taliban when he "welcomed" their official to this country, the man's reception at the State Department was hardly welcoming. The administration rejected his claim that the Taliban had complied with U.S. requests to isolate Osama bin Laden and affirmed its nonrecognition of the Taliban.

The movie also criticizes Bush for staying inside a Florida classroom full of kids for a full seven minutes after he learned that the country was under attack on Sept. 11, 2001. However, the vice chairman of the Sept. 11 commission has said that Bush did the right thing. Besides, Moore didn't exactly come up with any better ideas of what he SHOULD have done...

"Many are those who say that he should have leaped from his stool, adopted a Russell Crowe stance, and gone to work," commentator Christopher Hitchens writes for the online magazine Slate. "But if he had done any such thing, then . . . half the Michael Moore community would now be calling him a man who went to war on a hectic, crazed impulse. The other half would be saying what they already say --that he knew the attack was coming, was using it to cement himself in power, and couldn't wait to get on with his coup."

"Now watch this drive" scene: Moore implies that Bush is talking about al-Quaida ("these terrorist killers"), but in reality he was talking about a single attack in Israel, carried out by a Palestinian suicide bomber.

The movie quotes author Dan Briody claiming that the Carlyle Group (and by extention the Bushes because George H. W. was a senior advisor of Carlyle) “gained” from September 11 because it owned United Defense, a military contractor, suggesting conspiracy. However, United Defense's $11 billion Crusader tank developed for the U.S. Army is one of the only weapons systems canceled by the Bush administration. The cancell

Uncle Martin · July 18, 2004

Welcome to our forum Morpheus,

This is an interesting counterpoint. I think the link with a brief explanation would have sufficed. Cut and paste of the bulk of the link is extreme and redundant. I appreciate your enthusiasm. I've not seen the film yet so can't argue for or against your assertions, however, in the future please refrain from unnecessary posting from other sites. Copyright concerns, you understand.

Thanks.

Freethinker · July 18, 2004

So the Bushies have hired people to chase down all the sites that expose his attrocities and illegal/ unConstitutional actions! Interesting. A new member that makes 2 (one long) post which besides being a technical nightmare (whats with all the smiley icons?) is so filled with twisted attacks against the Truths that Moore's movie exposes as to by a joke. If it were not for the fact that so many Republicans are so anxious to find anything to stand behind, no matter how absurd, they will buy onto this garbage. It is the exact same thing Creationist do.

Originally posted by: Morpheus
Media conglomorate lie machine? Freethinker, I completely understand what you're saying.

]

Alwas a good trick PRETEND you origianally sided with the other person. Ya right!

TRUE PATRIOTS READ ON:

Besides the difficulty in editing this html doc that was so crudely cut and pasted here,

I mean REALLY! Talk about Straw Man and Ad homenum all rolled into one!

I guess only "TRUE PATRIOTS" will allow this drivel to be accepted.

Count me in as one of thus FALSE Patriots that thinks the US should reflect the values we had shown up to the Bush unconstituional Judicial Appointment to Presidency rather than the CONSTITUIONAL process of elections! One of those UnPatriotic peolpe that thinks it's OK to question the motives and efforts of our Government. Other than when it is helping the less fortunate, which is the only time the Conservatives think it should be watched closely.

But finding ANYTHING that actually shows LIES by Moore in this post is harder than trying to read or repsond to this garbage... But let's skip past all the smiley punctuations and messed up hypertextmarkups. After numersous paragraphs, here is the FIRST example given of a "LIE" from the film.

most of rest of alleged Bush administration lies actually involve Moore's fabrications to create the appearance of a lie--such as when Moore chops a Condoleezza Rice quote to make her say something when she actually said the opposite.

OK, here is an ACTUAL CLAIM. Rather than the ramblings of the first part of the post.

Here the poster CLAIMS that Moore used "fabrications". And how does he use "fabrications"? They CLAIM he edits ("Moore chops a Condoleezza Rice quote") what was ACTUALLY said to make it say "the opposite". Ah yes, we can take various parts of a speach and peice it together so what is seen coming out of the person's mouth was NOT what they SAID! Yes this WOULD be a bad thing to do!

But where is ANYTHING to back up this claim?

As we have learned to expect from the RIGHT side, there is nothing which a LIBERAL would recognize as FACTS. Just the stuff Conservatives so love to use to extreme, ARBITRARY CLAIMS AND UNSUPPORTED ASSERTIONS!Repeated over and over as if repetition made it true. A Liberal will expect valid support for any such claims. This means nothing to a Conservative. Facts? They just get in a Conservatives way when they are trying to make a point. But this poster, being a good Bushite, doesn't bother to include ANYTHING to support his claim. NOT A THING!

So I looked further to find what validity there might be to this claim. After all I AM a Liberal and DO bother checking the FACTS out.

From another site which touts this same claim.And includes parts of the exact transcript (which the poster here did not do, I wonder why?)

"Rice was referring to a connection in relation to terrorism in general. Moore chops Rice's quote so that we don't get the full context, which is as follows:

"Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It's not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes in

Freethinker · July 18, 2004

Man, trying to quote and edit this thing is worse than trying to read it with all the smileys!

OK! the FIRST claim turns out to be THEIR lie, not Moores.

Then more ramblings about how much Moore lies, but no actual examples, just the mindless repitition of (Sing it with me now!) "Moore lies, Moore Lies, ..."

Then we get to

Originally posted by: Morpheus
AND HERE’S WHY MOORE’S MOVIE IS CRAP

The first paragraph basically says Moore lied because he used publicly available stock footage of Gore from early on Election day while talking about the Florida Election Fraud! Oh NO! Stock footage! AAAAAAAAA

at least he got it right when he ended with

The “Florida Victory” sign reflected Gore’s hopes, not any actual election results.

Well actually this is a LIE also. EVERY valid estimated count done after Bush's appointment shows Gore DID win. And that doesn't count the ten's of thousands that were not ALLOWED to vote in areas that were known to be heavy Deomcratic areas. Just because they shared a birthday with a Felon, or had a similar name!

So I guess they didn't even get that one right!

The next attack is based on

but the way he words it implies that the Saudis received special treatment by the White House

Now let's look at this. 5 planes just killed thousands of US citizens. The main suspect behind it all is a bin Lauden. Now there are 24 members of the DIRECT bin Lauden family in the US at the time. NOT A SINGLE ONE was held for the first question! NOT ONE!

During Clinton's era, 4 major suspects responsible for the 1st WTC bombing were arrested less than one month later and are now locked away. Bush's family friends, the bin Laudens, jet off home without the least inconvenience.

Special treatment?

Are you kidding?

Why? Virtually every business G Bush had (and bankrupt all of them) were financied by the bin Lauden family. His best buddy in College became an employee of their's and pulled Bush into their pocket long ago!

The exact documents proving this are shown in the movie!

FEDERAL DOCUMENTS, not LIES!

The next supposed LIE is

Castigating the allegedly lazy President, Moore says, “Or perhaps he just should have read the security briefing that was given to him on August 6, 2001 that said that Osama bin Laden was planning to attack America by hijacking airplanes.” There is no evidence of this, and even Moore tacitly acknowledges that Bush probably did read it when he later says (in defense of another one of his plays on words), "he (unlike the rest of America) was already aware that Osama bin Laden was planning to attack America by hijacking airplanes, PER THE AUGUST 6, 2001 PRESIDENTIAL DAILY BRIEF (PDB)."

the idiot child, Shrub, has made it clear that he does not READ anything. Never reads the newspaper, or releases. He just listens to what his buddies tell him. From the transcript of Bush's interview with Brit Hume

""I get briefed by [chief of staff] Andy Card and [National Security Advisor] Condi [Rice] in the morning. They come in and tell me. ... I glance at the headlines just to [get?] kind of a flavor for what's moving. I rarely read the stories, and get briefed by people who are probably read [sic] the news themselves. ... And the best way to get the news is from objective sources. And the most objective sources I have are people on my staff who tell me what's happening in the world."

So what Moore said is EXACTLY TRUE.

“Or perhaps he just should have read the security briefing that was given to him on August 6, 2001 that said that Osama bin Laden was planning to attack America by hijacking airplanes.”

Yes, later in the movie Moore acknolwedges that Bush may have been aware of the memo, choosing to IGNORE it!, Bu

Freethinker · July 18, 2004

Originally posted by: Morpheus
The movie clearly implies that the Saudis gave $1.4 billion to the Bushes and their friends. But most of this money - $1.18 billion of it - was actually given to a Carlyle Group firm known as BDM. Bush had nothing to do with these funds, because Carlyle had sold BDM five months before the Bushes joined the Carlyle advisory board in 1998.

And on it goes.....

I had heard that Moore himself put up a site that goes over the FACTS step by step with verification for each and every one. So far I have found everything with simple searchs for other sources on the net.It was not SPOON FED to me the way this post is constructed. *I* BOTHERED to check for FACTS myself.

But this list just keeps going.

Again, the concept is that if they can get enough people repeating these LIES, they are as good as the TRUTH for their purpose. As long as lazy Conserviatives will sucker for these distortions and lies, never bothering to check them beyond the dozens of sites that just REPEAT the lies, and things like this post passed from one narrow minded bigot to another, as long as it goes unchallenged, we KNOW they won't bother to check for TRUTH!

But if you want to see each detail pulled apart and VALIDATED with extensive references, such as for this LIE, well here is this one alone.

From

http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/index.php?id=19

"Factual Back-Up for Fahrenheit 9/11:

FAHRENHEIT 9/11: “Another group of people invest in you, your friends, and their related businesses $1.4 billion over a number of years.”

* “In all, at least $1.46 billion had made its way from the Saudis to the House of Bush and its allied companies and institutions.” Craig Unger, House of Bush, House of Saud, p. 200, (Scribner: New York, 2004). For a complete breakdown of the investments, see Unger’s Appendix C, pp. 295-298.

* This number includes investments made and contracts awarded at the time that Bush’s friends were involved in the Carlyle Group:

James Baker was a Carlyle Senior Counselor beginning in 1993. Carlyle Group web site, http://www.thecarlylegroup.com/eng/team/l5-team391.html.

Bush's OMB chief, Richard Darman, was with Carlyle by 1994. Bob Cook, Mergers & Acquisitions Report, December 12, 1994.

George W. Bush was with Caterair -- owned by Carlyle -- until 1994, after Fred Malek, a senior advisor to Carlyle, who also served as the director of the 1988 Republican Convention, suggested to Carlyle that the President’s eldest son would “be a positive addition to Caterair’s board.” Kenneth N. Gilpin, “Little-Known CarlyleScores Big,” New York Times, March 26, 1991

Bush Sr. was first involved in Carlyle by the mid-1990s and no later than 1997.Kevin Phillips, “The Barreling Bushes; Four Generations of the Dynasty Have Chased Profits Through Cozy Ties with Mideast Leaders, Spinning Webs of Conflicts of Interest,” Los Angeles Times, January 11 , 2004; Dan Briody, The Iron Triangle, John Wiley & Sons, Inc., 2003.

* Additional back up for these numbers is as follows:

Saudi investments in the Carlyle Group worth $80,000,000. Craig Unger, “Saving the Saudis,” Vanity Fair, October 2003. The number was reported to Unger by the head of Carlyle, David Rubenstein, in an interview.

In 1994, Carlyle owned military contractor BDM was “awarded a contract to provide technical assistance and logistics support to the Royal Saudi Air Force.” Worth: $46,200,000. PR Newswire, “BDM Federal Awarded $46 Million Contract To Support Royal Saudi Air Force,” October 27, 1994.

During the 1990s, the Vinne

Freethinker · July 22, 2004

For those that have been watching, perhaps you have seen how Bush's Corporate buddies are helping his administration destroy the US Constitutional protection of Free Speech. There was the two people that were arrested, handcuffed and taken to jail for wearing anti-Bush T shirts at a PUBLIC July 4th presentation by Shrub. The woman was a Federal Employee and was FIRED becuase of her T shirt. But that was not the example of CORPORATE attacks.

Then there is Linda Ronstadt. No need going into whether you like, or even heard, her music. She was booked at the Alladin Hotel in Las Vegas. During her performance she made a positive comment about Moore and Fahrenheit 9/11. There are differing reports as to the crooud reaction. Naturally, if the comment had been PRO Bush, the more enlighted "Intellectual Elite" would have groaned and the show would have gone on. But as Conservatives do not allow other's to share their opinions, the Hotel Management had her immediately escourted out of the building to her tour bus. Not only was she not allowed back to her DRESSING room, she was not allowed back in the Hotel, to her HOTEL ROOM there to get her personal belongings. Her room was emptied by Hotel Staff and brought out to her bus. She was told she was no longer even welcome in the Hotel.

I think the term used to describe this mindset is "Compassionate Conseravitism".

Anyway, Seem the Alladin is operating under Bankruptcy protection right now anyway. Planet Hollywood Corp is in the midst of buying them out and taking them out of bankruptcy. So I wrote to the Alladin Hotel and Planet Hollywood. Letting them know that they would never see a dime of my money nor anyone's that I had any influence over. Today I received this e-mail:

(addressed to me)

"The following statement was just released to the press. I wanted to

send it to you because of the deep concern you expressed in your e-mail

of yesterday. I trust that you will forward this to your list of

friends copied on your note.

Many thanks, Amy Sadowsky

Statement from Robert Earl, Chairman and CEO of Planet Hollywood International, Inc.:

We hope to be approved by the Nevada Gaming Commission to become the new owners of the Aladdin Resort in Las Vegas as early as September 1, 2004. Upon the assumption of ownership, and with a new management team in place, we would like to offer the use of the Theatre of Performing Arts to Linda Ronstadt for a second concert and further to take Michael Moore up on his offer to join her on stage to introduce her and sing a song.

We respect artists' creativity and support their rights to express themselves. We were very sorry to hear about the unfortunate circumstances of this past Saturday night and want to make it clear that Planet Hollywood has never, in our 13 year history, restricted any artists' right to free speech and we will continue with that policy once we take ownership."

Contact for Mr. Earl:

Amy Sadowsky

(407) 903-5759

[email protected]

Thank you Planet Hollywood for showing that Corporations can be good Citizens also.

Freethinker · July 26, 2004

And now Fahrenheit 9/11 has surpased $100M! A documentary that is out producing many major movies. e.g Halle Berry's Catwoman got a disappointing $17.2 million from 3,117 theaters it's opening weekend. 9/11 did almost twice that in only 800 theaters it's opening weekend! It may be one of the single most important resources for getting that Judicially appointed Resident of the White House/ War criminal/ Crook thrown out of office.

wisdumn · July 29, 2004

i must say that i was thouroughly impressed and saddened my mike moore's film. i like you FT knew many of the things in the film from other sources like www.copvcia.com and guerilla news network, but i do like the way he(moore) tied it all together. tech tv is a pretty good source too although it does take them a while to update their programming, but that's because the govt. would like to get them off the air but thanks to our true patriots the hackers out there, good 'ol uncle spam just can't quite do it.

FrankM · August 3, 2004

I don't stay up late enough to watch Leno, but I heard that he put together a video/audio clip

of Ted Kennedy's speech at the dem convention where they parsed various sections to have it

appear Ted said "Kerry and Edwards are gay". Apparently, this was to illustrate the way Moore

had parsed some video/audio segments of a Charelton Heston speech to make it appear he was

saying something he actually didn't.

With video and audio editing programs, along with photoshop type software, being readily

available, I expect it will be sooner than later that we will have to be skeptical of many events

presented on video unless we personally were there to see it for ourselves.

I think Moore did a great disservice to those that record historical and public events.

Freethinker · August 3, 2004

Originally posted by: FrankM
Apparently, this was to illustrate the way Moore had parsed some video/audio segments of a Charelton Heston speech to make it appear he was saying something he actually didn't.

1) The Heston thing was in one of Moores OTHER films. Get it straight. It has NOTHING to do with 9/11. But it is used by peopple that don;t ahve a clue but want to denegrade 9/11. Guilt by association.

2) Yes Moore edited his movies. What a surprise! What he should make the movie stretch from under a few hours to months long so you can see everything that happens every second? Get real!

3) Yes he editted the Heston stuff together. (Again, rather than sitting thru months (years) of time between interviews and quotes) However the CONTEXT of the series of quotes remains intact. It has never been shown otherwise. Suggest otherwise, like above, yes, PROVEN? NOPE!

I think Moore did a great disservice to those that record historical and public events.

Give us EXACT details.

Just like the extremely lengthy and horribly coded attack I refuted earlier, this is all just unsupported inuendo intended to discredit Moore when no ACTUAL errors can be presented. If there is ANY "great disservice to those that record historical and public events" it is being done by yourself and all the others that mindlessly parrot such unsupportable trash.

Freethinker · August 3, 2004

And now we find even the infamous "NASCAR Dads" are being steered away from Idiot Child Bush by one of their top gods. Dale Earnhardt Jr wqas so moved by Fahrenheit 9/11 that he took his entire pit crew to see it and then told Fox News in a live interview that EVERY US citizen should see it.

Freethinker · August 3, 2004

An estimated 3,000 of Crawford Texas' (home of Bush's ranch) 702 residents came out to watch a showing of Fahrenheit 9/11 blocks from the ranch.

In a strong show of support for their neighbor, a wopping 300 people came out to support Bush!

Er, for those statistically challenged, that is a 10/1 ratio.

Perhaps even Crawford doesn't want this war criminal/ Crook/ Liar back as a permanent resident?

wisdumn · August 4, 2004

i think the movie kicked ***. all of these people claim how it was so biosed but i think the truth really frightens them,especially the ones who voted for that hillbilly. someone asked me the other day that even though i wanted bush out of office, did i really want kerry in there. i simply replied, i would rather have a monkey in the president seat and a banana in the vice president seat than to have bush even mopping floors at the white house. so far we've not even gotten the intelligence of a banana with the presiDUNCE and vice presiDUNCE combined.

Morpheus · August 17, 2004

Originally posted by: Freethinker
So the Bushies have hired people to chase down all the sites that expose his attrocities and illegal/ unConstitutional actions! Interesting. A new member that makes 2 (one long) post which besides being a technical nightmare (whats with all the smiley icons?) is so filled with twisted attacks against the Truths that Moore's movie exposes as to by a joke. If it were not for the fact that so many Republicans are so anxious to find anything to stand behind, no matter how absurd, they will buy onto this garbage.

First of all, my apologies for the poor copy-paste job I did on my two lengthy posts.Unfortunately this site does not appear to likeMicrosoft Word's formatting, so I have since gone through manually and cleaned up the mess. I had actually posted the original two posts a few hours before having to go out-of-state for three weeks. I figured it was not the text but the context that was most important. I did not wish to delay three weeks before providing an alternative point of view on one of the most influential pieces or propaganda the free world has ever come to know...

That said, let me reiterate a few things I had previously written since Freethinker seems to have ignored them: To be honest, I really don’t know who I want to see win this fall, but doI think it is my duty to keep people aware. I'm not a mindless Bush fanatic, I'm an educated high school senior who just spent his last three weeks taking a pre-college course at Cornell University. I consider myself a "free thinker" too; I am currently Independent. I have no shame in admitting that I do not know nearly enough about either party's true intentions to ally myself with one them. However, I DOpity our president for all the bad publicity the media has given him (with Fahrenheit at its pinnacle, of course). Whether I want him re-elected or not is unimportant; it is wrong for people like Michael Moore to blow any president's reputation so far out of proportion.

It was by no means a lie when I said I completely understand those who fell in love with Moore's movie. I, too, was deeply moved after I first saw it. I thought it was extremely enlightening. However, it bothered me that so many people thought otherwise, and I wanted to find out why. I spent several nights searching for various websites that provided counterpoints to what Moore had said. In doing so I discovered nothing pointing to any huge mistakes that Moore made in the movie. Instead, it was the small"lies" that each site pointed out. Alone, each is trivial, but together they plague almost every aspect of the movie until (at least to me) it lost almost all of its "enlightening" value. Fahrenheit 9/11 is an extremely well-made movie that does a great jobtransforming the White House agenda into a circus. It's funny and enjoyable buthaslittle more educational value than Anchorman. So far, nothing anyone has said in the above posts has convinced me otherwise:

Originally posted by: FreethinkerSo WHO is lying here? Moore when he used ACTUAL UNEDITTED FOOTAGE of Rice HERSELF saying it? Or this poster when he claimed that Moore EDITTED it "to make her say something when she actually said the opposite"?

Here, we see Freethinker making a reference to the quote by Condoleezza Rice, in which she says that there is a connection between Iraq and al Qaeda. First off, nobody ever said Moore EDITED Condoleezza Rice's quote. Don't put words in people's mouths, Freethinker. Second, "this poster" is referring to me, correct? It was not me who said this but Dave Kopel, whom I quoted. Everything under my heading "Segments of Dave Kopel's Intro on the subject" was written by... none other than... Dave Kopel

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