Christians to vote on removing kids from school

[Uncle Martin]

Here is an interesting little tidbit, The Southern Baptists are debating whether or not to call for all 16 million of their members to withdraw their 4 million children from public schools. The reasoning behind this "call to arms" is the fear that public schools are actually teaching students factual information that may lead teenagers to leave the church. I suspect that another factor is the future tithe potential being lost. The loss of these 4 million future believers may force some preachers to actually get a job and become productive members of society.

 

For more info: http://www.getthekidsout.org/

[CD27]

first off, preachers do have a job, tehy get payed real green money to preach, imagine that. second off, i could hardly say that teaching about the atomic structure THEORY is anywhere near factual. atoms are yet to be proven at all, they have only theorized on them, and to teach it as if it is real is unconstitutional. NOTHING that christians have done in school has been wrong. we have not "forced" anyone to say "under god" in the pledge, it is their choice, as a matter a fact, they don't even ahve to say the pledge if they don't belive ni god. i still don't see how that is unconstitutional. plus, the mjority of the south are christians anyways, a very few people in the south are not christians. i know only a few, and my school is one of the largest in the state. well, i can't say they are all true christians,. but they all claim to be.

 

point is, alot ofthe theories that are taught in highschool and evn middleschool are jsut that, theories. and they teahc them as fact. if they are gonna teach liket hat, then why is creationism taken out of schools? to what the athiests state, creationism is just a thoery as well...so it has jsut as much a right to be taugh as FACT in schools as the atomic theory does.

 

personally, i'd be more than hapy to go to a private school, if the southern baptists will provide it for us. until then, i only got a public school to attend.

 

Eric

[geko]

A pretty meaningless post and totally off-topic but i couldnt resist the temptation to highlight

 

Originally posted by: CD27

first off, preachers do have a job, tehy get payed real green money to preach,

 

Love it!

[Uncle Martin]

Although I do see some humor there, I am mostly worried about young people like CD. This is a good example of what happens when children are brainwashed with myth and misinformation. It amazes me that any intelligent person could fall for this, in this day and age. Make no mistake, some very intelligent individuals prescribe to these myths. That is evidence of its ubiquitousness. I sincerely hope that CD can resolve some of the issues that he is dealing with.

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

The reasoning behind this "call to arms" is the fear that public schools are actually teaching students factual information that may lead teenagers to leave the church. I suspect that another factor is the future tithe potential being lost.

 

I browsed the page you linked to and man, I am sorry for each and every kid who is pulled out of school because of ignorance of this kind. I also question their motives.

 

I have a perspective on this issue, though. In Norway, we have what can be translated as a "Christian statement of purpose", which, essentially, says that any state run schools (here in Norway, that is pretty much any school) must teach elements of the Christian faith to the kids.

 

This includes prayers, psalms, hymns, Christmas gospels, Easter stories, church attendance etc.

 

When I was in primary school back in the late 70s, early 80s, this was taught in a class called "Christianity". We actually had the possibility to opt out of those classes to attend a more general study group which was called, well, "religion", which had a broader view and taught world religions, ethics etc (on paper). Basically it was just a small group of "different" students like myself, and the teachers hardly took it seriously, but at least we didn't have to attend church and learn the prayers in school. We had a *choice*.

 

But - as this alternative grew more popular over the years, the religious factions in Norway realised they were not reaching every single kid in Norway. So, a new subject was introduced to replace "Christianity", and the alternative study group was dropped. The class ("diplomatically" named "Christanity, religion, and worldviews") is now compulsory to all kids in grades 1-9 and is, for all practical purposes, a study in the Christian faith with some world religion stuff thrown in - at the teacher's discretion. If you have a teacher with an open mind, your kids can luck out and learn something else than just psalms.

 

The problem is, I have two daughters and in two years the youngest is ready for first grade. I have no intention of letting her attend this class. But it is currently illegal to make her not take those classes. It would actually be civil disobedience.

 

While I have no alternative to the publich schools, which on the most part I am quite happy with, I think this is a complete shame for the Norwegian government. And quite interestingly, an international committee recently criticized Norway *heavily* for forcing children to learn about Christianity (among other things...this country is not what it seems).

 

The big problem is that there are no alternatives, which is especially problematic in the larger cities where we have a lot of immigrant kids, or kids with immigrant parents, who have different faiths. A lot of Moslem parents don't fancy their kids learning Christian prayers.

 

So while I would not ask people to remove their kids from school, I hope we can find a solution to a growing problem over here.

 

Tormod

[GAHD]

Get together with the other parents and write a group letter(s) to the people in your area, stating the reasons for not wanting your child(ren) to attend this class. You may be surprised what can be accomplished(atleast in your local area) by doing this. I would also suggest sending copies of the letters to the local newspapers and other media; a little coverage could entice other parents to do the same.

[lindagarrette]

Tormod, I'm surprised to learn of non-secularism in your public schools. I was under the impression that all European countries were way ahead of us (U.S.) in this matter! Do the lessons portray Christianity as some form of truth? You could count me as civil disobedient! Pandora

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: lindagarrette

Tormod, I'm surprised to learn of non-secularism in your public schools. I was under the impression that all European countries were way ahead of us (U.S.) in this matter! Do the lessons portray Christianity as some form of truth? You could count me as civil disobedient! Pandora

 

Remember that Europe is a lot of things. In the south you have the predominantly Catholic countries, where religion is completely different thing than up north where we have mostly Protestants.

 

But it is a sad fact that yes, Christianity is portraited as truth. And creationism is taught as fact in the geography and history classes. Go figure.

 

Tormod

[Uncle Martin]

Tormod,

 

When you said "I have a perspective on this issue", you were understating the fact. Like Lindagarrette I too was under the impression that Europe, and Norway in particular is secular. My outdated encyclopedias tell me that only 16% of Norwegians attend church regularly. Is this information erroneous or is this an example of a minority having an unjust influence over the majority? Either way, it is a sad irony that you are in the same boat as the creationists here in the U S that must deal with an evolution they abhor.

[Tormod]

I don't know if it is simply a matter of minority over majority. Statistics lie, you know. When I went to college in the US I found a book with country statistics which said 17% of Norwegian households owned a television (this was in 1990) - but every single family I knew back then owned a TV.

 

Norway is secular, yes. Few people attend church. I'd suggest 5-6%. I vaguely recall a recent article stating that less than half of the Norwegian population professed a belief in God.

 

But it is important to remember that we do NOT have a separation of church and state (ie, we have a "state church") like you do in the US. The support for this is waning and I hope to see it gone within a decade. Even the religious factions see that this does not serve anyone. Yet this is the main reason they have faith-based classes in public schools.

 

Our Prime Minister is a priest, but that is pure coincidence. His party has about 6-7% of the popular vote, but they are in a coalition government with two conservative parties.

 

But to the point - I think we are struggling to get rid of old customs which are more or less doomed to fall. I hope we are seeing the last of it. For some reason the Christian studies in school has a popular support - I think it boils down to what we are discussing in another thread right now - that morality and religion is one and the same. A lot of Norwegians tend to think that since we have a history as a Christian nation, then all our values necessarily come from the Cristian faith. That very few people actually have this faith, and that a fraction of those actually practise it (re the low church attendance) is a strong indication that they are wrong, and that sooner or later something is bound to happen.

 

I just hope to avoid all the problems of civil disobedience when it comes to making sure my daughter doesn't have to learn psalms at school.

 

Tormod

[Tormod]

I should add that the Christian teachings also extend downwards to daycare and kindergartens. My daughter plus some of the immigrant kids where the only ones who did not attend church before Christmas last year.

 

Tormod

[IrishEyes]

From Tormod:

I should add that the Christian teachings also extend downwards to daycare and kindergartens. My daughter plus some of the immigrant kids where the only ones who did not attend church before Christmas last year.

 

This is a very quick question... What do you mean by 'my daughter... only ones that did not attend church before Christmas last year'? Is Christmas a day, or an event, or a school production, or what? I thought that you did not profess a belief in God, so why do you still bother with CHRISTmas?

 

Just wondering, not trying to criticize. But it always makes me wonder to hear non-believers talk about Christmas and Easter, totally blissfully ignoring what they represent. And before anyone starts with the whole "Christmas began as a pagan holiday, etc." I want to remind you that it's not called "PaganDay" it's called CHRISTMAS. Regardless of the arguments for the origin of the day, it is currently associated with Jesus, not any pagan ritual or celebration.

[IrishEyes]

Aside from my last post, Tormod THAT IS HORRIBLE. I;'m glad I'm not in the minority that were ignorant of the current religious situation in your country. And here I thought 'the continent' was running rampant with pagans and atheists. LOL

 

You all know I keep my children home, and personally, I like it this way. I think it's ridiculous for the Southern Baptists, as a group, to threaten to remove their chldren from school. Why make an issue? If you don't like what your children are learning, take them out and teach them yourself! Don't make an issue of it, just do what you believe is right for your family.

 

As for children being forced to learn Bible verses at school, that's just sad. Yeah, the Freethinkers in this country would never let that happen here. Seriously though, I do not think that God should be prohibited in schools, but I also do not think that God should be crammed down anyone's throat. I'll write more later, as i HAVE to get to the store right now, but just understand that - Christian though I am - I think that forcing children to do this, especially against the will of their parents, is just WRONG!!!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

Here is an interesting little tidbit, The Southern Baptists are debating whether or not to call for all 16 million of their members to withdraw their 4 million children from public schools. The reasoning behind this "call to arms" is the fear that public schools are actually teaching students factual information that may lead teenagers to leave the church.

If it were not for the harm done to the future potential of the 4 Million future adults, I would say, GREAT IDEA!

 

It is called SCHOOL CHOICE. If they don't like the PUBLICLY FUNDED Public Schools, let them CHOOSE to SPEND THEIR OWN MONEY on some other education system.

 

The reduced class sizes would allow people that want a REAL education for thier kids to get a better education.

 

The future differential between those taught REALITY and those brainwashed into antiquated superstition would show the following generation just how ignorant a Religious education would be.

 

But I have to offset that with my concern for those 4 Million children that did not have their OWN choice of whether they wanted a FACT based education or a SUPERSTITION based one. And the impact in 20 years of that many brainwashed sheep entering the adult world.

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

This is a very quick question... What do you mean by 'my daughter... only ones that did not attend church before Christmas last year'? Is Christmas a day, or an event, or a school production, or what? I thought that you did not profess a belief in God, so why do you still bother with CHRISTmas?

 

Just wondering, not trying to criticize. But it always makes me wonder to hear non-believers talk about Christmas and Easter, totally blissfully ignoring what they represent. And before anyone starts with the whole "Christmas began as a pagan holiday, etc." I want to remind you that it's not called "PaganDay" it's called CHRISTMAS. Regardless of the arguments for the origin of the day, it is currently associated with Jesus, not any pagan ritual or celebration.

 

A bit of language history here - we don't use the term "Christ" at all. We call it "jul", which is as far as I know the same word as Yule. I write Christmas simply because we are talking about the same week.

 

Christmas has been celebrated for centuries in Scandinavia. It has roots in ancient traditions stemming from the vikings, pre-dating Christianity, where mid-winter was the big issue. Since mid-winter is Dec 21, Christmas was probably not the hardest thing to make the newly converted Norwegians celebrate after 1033 (which is the year Norway was "officially" christened if I remember my history correctly - I can look it up if you like). Did you celebrate Christmas in North America in 1033? I wonder how much of the American "Christmas" is a Christian tradition and not some trade-sponsored event. Or is Santa Claus perhaps a Jesus figure?

 

For most Norwegians Christmas has very little to do with the actual religion. We celebrate Christmas Eve ("Julaften"), which is the big day like it is in many European countries, and Christmas Day plus the two following days are public holidays. Some people attend church on Christmas Eve out of a sincere religious reason but there are many who go to church that day purely for traditional reasons. For those, it is also likely to be the only day of the year that they attend church, except for funerals, baptisms, and weddings.

 

If you ask kids, they will answer that Jesus was born on Christmas eve and that is why we celebrate it, because that is what they learn from childrens ongs and in school. If you ask an adult, you are more likely to get a less religious answer.

 

So for us "Christmas" we think of week surrounding Christmas Eve. For me personally it has no Christian content.

 

Tormod

[Tormod]

Actually, Irish, to take it a step further: If you call Thursdays "Thursday", you are in fact celebrating a pagan God. Because Thursday is Thor's day, the day of the God of Thunder in Norse mythology. But you knew that, right? Friday is "Frøya's dag". Monday is the "Day of the moon". Tuesday is "Tys dag", named after the Norse God of War. Wednesday is "Odin's day", after the Supreme Norse God.

 

(And guess where the name Tormod comes from).

 

Tormod

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

Here is an interesting little tidbit, The Southern Baptists are debating

 

We also have to remember that in the 1979, the Southern Baptist Convention (group behind this effort) was PRO-CHOICE. Several Southern Baptist ethics professors and the CLC head signed a declaration by the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights.

 

Then the Conservatives took over.

 

And then not many years ago they promoted a boycot of DisneyWorld/ Land because it did not discriminate against enough groups. We all know how major of an impact that had. Disney had record biz that year.

 

They have also prmoted evangelism toward Jews, saying that of course Jews are WRONG in their beliefs and need to be shown how ignorant they are.

 

Add Muslems to that. Remember Lt. Gen. Jerry Boykin? You know the guy that stated that his god was real and the Muslim god was false, that his god could beat up the muslim god. He is/ was also in direct command of the prisons in Iraq during the Torture scandal.

 

Good ole loving Christians!

 

They also called for wives to "graciously" submit to their husbands' leadership. Yes spousal abuse is high in SBC areas.