Morals.

[Edge]

Interesting that you bring up the "golden rule" as it is found in the Bible.

Yet, its origins date from many years before the Bible was written. It is also on most religions.

 

So, we can assume that it is an ethic standard, and that religion came from morality. Not otherwise.

 

What i find more interesting is that most children believe that the golden rule is "to treat others as they treat you" not "treat others the way you would want them to treat you."

True

 

Another interesting find is that all human civilizations have developed nearly identical moral standards, not necessarily tied to their laws. For example, nearly every society has a method of exhiling someone who steps out of line morally. Think of Amish, Jewish, even Japanese rules of treating someone who does not maintain the moral standards of the group as a pariah, outcast.

Which implies to me that morality and ethical standards will eventually arise among humans, without religion being a necessary factor for this.

[Tarantism]

in order for rulers to rule there had to be rules. these were promulgated by the ruler and the priests working together to

 

i think that you are on to something here, since lets not forget that many rules in ancient times were also considered gods.

[CraigD]

Is the "the simplest answer usually is the right one" rule still valid?

That’s a slightly but significantly inaccurate rephrasing of the rule commonly known as “Occam’s Razor”, the usual English phrasing of which is “Given two equally predictive [or the observed data] theories, choose the simpler.” Note, importantly, that this doesn’t say “choose the simpler of two theories, even if the simpler is less predictive.”

 

Science is full of popular theories that are less simple, but more predictive, than their predecessors.

How many different civilizations (who many say their laws and societies developed independently) have extremely similar complex laws based upon "moralistic" ideals. How did such similar "moralistic ideals" develope in segregated cultures. Simplest answer, these morals developed before the groups split (at the tower of babel?)

Another equally simple possibility, IMHO, is that cultures that lack a critical collection of moral rules (that include, IMHO, the Golden Rule), fare poorly against nature and other cultures. History is full of examples of cultures who’s “core values”, or lack thereof, made them ineffective at handling natural misfortunes or invasion by other cultures. For example, in pre-Columbian Mesoamerica, variously insufficiently expansive cultures were absorbed by the Aztec culture, which collapsed due to lack of internal cohesion in the face of invasion by Spain in the 16th century.

 

The problem with considering the tower of Babel to be an actual historical or archeological event or site is that there’s simply no physical evidence for it. Tower of babel –candidate ruins can be found at many locations, dating to many times, while language give the appearance of having emerged in many different forms in many places at many different times. As moral allegory, however, it’s compelling, and common to many cultures predating, contemporary, and following the semites.

[lindagarrette]

Here is a great explanation of morality from the Wikipedia.

 

"Some evolutionary psychologists have argued that human morality originated from evolutionary processes. An innate tendency to develop a sense of right and wrong helps an individual to survive and reproduce in a species with complex social interactions. Selected behaviors, seen in abstraction as moral codes, are seen to be common to all human cultures, and reflect, in their development, similarities to natural selection and these aspects of morality can be seen in as the basis of some religious doctrine. From this, some also argue that there may be a simple Darwinian explanation for the existence of religion: that, regardless of the validity of religious beliefs, religion tends to encourage behavior beneficial to the species, as a code of morality tends to encourage communality, and communality tends to assist survival."

[cwes99_03]

Thanks Craig. I had forgotten the name of the rule, and I know I was simplifying it, but I don't believe that this theory is any less predictive or credible than others (since all of this seems to be a guessing game right now anyway.)

 

I also find it interesting that you note that some of the most powerful societies in history were those with morals similar to those contained in the Bible. Seems this lends toward having laws similar to those found in the Bible as you have pointed out they seem to make the country stronger. Soloman wrote that a man must take care of his financial responsibilities and also build up his household at Proverbs 24:27 because he knew if the families of his empire were well taken care of then his job of ruling over them would be easier. But then this book of the Bible also claims to be divinely inspired.

[Southtown]

I voted yes because in order to have concern for fellow humans, we must believe in a higher order of some kind. Generosity has to make sense somehow to us, otherwise individual survival becomes the goal toward which any altruistic or unselfish behavior would be antagonistic.

[Tarantism]

perhaps our common morals today stemmed from religious beliefs, but really what morals does modern society have anyway? not too many...

[Southtown]

Commercialism seems to be promoting a morality that drives the market. We may be witnessing a global experiment in moral extraction and the resulting cessation of coexistance.

[Edge]

I voted yes because in order to have concern for fellow humans, we must believe in a higher order of some kind. Generosity has to make sense somehow to us, otherwise individual survival becomes the goal toward which any altruistic or unselfish behavior would be antagonistic.

Really, I help other people and religion influence is almost null on me.

[Southtown]

Really, I help other people and religion influence is almost null on me.

K, well, the question begs, "Why do you?" Upbringing, obligation, fear, ideology, what?

[questor]

some people seem to be unaware that almost all of us have been brought up

surrounded by religious symbols, activities and influences. they think that somehow, they created their own set of morals out of whole cloth. they can't understand that from infancy they have been exposed to religious thought and practices throughout our culture. to those i would ask...which

moral issues have not been addressed by the world's religions? which laws do not have morality from these morals as their base ?

[Edge]

K, well, the question begs, "Why do you?" Upbringing, obligation, fear, ideology, what?

First, I was taught that from my parents. Yet, I understand why it is important.

 

Second, I have been in situations where I need help, I know how does it feel; so, when someone asks me for help, I understand that person and try to help him/her, whether it being helping them to study, need of money, help to finish a project or something. I guess emphaty is need here, as well as unity with other people.

 

Third, - this is kinda selfish, so it's not moral - whenever I'm in need of help, I would like to receive help as well. I'm not saying I always help when asked ( I have priorities ) , but if I need help then I expect someone else to do it for me. So, that's why I act the other way around too. The Golden Rule in some sort of way. Also, I don't get mad if someone can't help me with something, I know they have priorities as well.

 

And finally, if you are a good person (I'm not saying I'm a very good person) just because you are afraid of hell or God, then you are not necessarily a good person.

 

And questor, just because religions address morals does not mean they were created by religion. How do you know that religion was the product of morals?

[Southtown]

So, that's why I act the other way around too. The Golden Rule in some sort of way.

I agree that biblical morality makes sense, no matter where it came from. But I find it funny how people can agree with biblical morality, and yet reject its connotations.

“

As you would like people to do to you, do exactly so to them.”

— Jesus (

Luke 6:31

)

Also, I don't get mad if someone can't help me with something, I know they have priorities as well.

How can a man be so right about morality, yet fallaciously claim to be the world's only hope?

“

But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing back; and your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil. Therefore be merciful, even as your Father is also merciful.”

— Jesus (

Luke 6:35-36

)

 

And finally, if you are a good person (I'm not saying I'm a very good person) just because you are afraid of hell or God, then you are not necessarily a good person.

I agree, and again, so does the bible.

“

But Yahweh said to Samuel, "Don't look on his face, or on the height of his stature; because I have rejected him: for Yahweh sees not as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but Yahweh looks at the heart.”

—

1 Samuel 16:7

 

And questor, just because religions address morals does not mean they were created by religion. How do you know that religion was the product of morals?

I assume you meant "that religion wasn't the product of morals", am I right? But I would ask, what difference does it make, really?

“

Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

— Jesus (

Matthew 7:21

)

[questor]

i would think that morals preceeded religion. what i do know that they now

coexist together. morals are taught by all religions and delineate conduct as to right and wrong. if someone thinks they have good morals without religious influence, pray tell where their morals came from ?

[Kriminal99]

Kriminal, why are you angry ? nobody is forcing you to believe anything. i don't think your beliefs are important to any one else. you may want to pursue knowledge more deeply

so your arguments are from known facts and not just from feelings.

 

Knowledge is not just held in books and reports on the results of (probably biased) experiments. Deductive reasoning (of which mathematics is a subset) is a much more useful tool in the search for knowledge.

 

If you are unable to deal with the argument that unconnected religions having the same morals indicates that it is the physical world which motivated those morals rather than the religion itself then simply say so rather than shifting to dishonest tactics completely unrelated to the argument.

 

To answer the question "where would morals come from?" if I haven't already, the answer is by looking at what our morals really are and then extending on that idea. That means I would characterize any activity that all people who otherwise wanted to cannot pursue simultaneously because they would get in each others way as immoral.

[Southtown]

Right. What's right is right, right?

[questor]

Kriminal, you said...

''If you are unable to deal with the argument that unconnected religions having the same morals indicates that it is the physical world which motivated those morals rather than the religion itself then simply say so rather than shifting to dishonest tactics completely unrelated to the argument.''

 

i do think this happened originally. as religions became codified, these laws of relationships became part of religious dogma. your morals probably came from Judeo-Christian religious beliefs unless you lived outside of civilization.