What IS space?

[Qfwfq]

I believe that the universe is both finite and countable. Put in more conventional terms, I subscribe to the Holographic Principle

Well, 't Hooft is certainly a serious name in field theory, but I'm not too sure of some of the things in there. Mostly that about volume being illusory.

 

In any case, one degree of freedom per Planck area does not imply the Universe being countable, or even a compact region of it.

[WebFeet]

How do you reconcile your opinion with the observations that

• the speed of light in a vacuum is a constant?
  
• it is experimentally possible to measure this speed using only a single photon?

 

Taking the second point ,first. To be able to measure the speed of a single photon, you would have to isolate it from all other energy/photons across the complete spectrum. This would include removing all heat sources and reducing the temperature to absolute zero.

 

As to the first point, speed = distance / time. Both distance and time vary locally, but because they vary inversely, the relationship between the two remains constant.

 

Maxwell's equation states that the speed of light is inversely proportional to the permittivity and permeability of free space. The more energy you have, permittivity, the less the permeability. This maintains a constant relationship of the speed of light.

If you had a region, either with no energy or no permeability, the speed of light becomes infinite.

So assuming there are small gaps between the photons in the universe, these regions have zero permittivity, and subsequently photons travel across them at infinite velocity.

 

Your position certainly has a kind of formal beauty, but I can’t see how it’s supported by experimental evidence.

 

Although there is no evidence to support my view, there is no evidence to discount it

 

As for the beauty, I think so.

 

At an extremely simplistic level, imagine a photon being binary. If you have a photon, then you have a 1, if not you have a zero. Now you can build up a complex system using nothing but 1s and 0s. The more 1's you have the greater the energy.

 

If you wanted to move a 1 from one end of a bit of space to the other, the more 1's you have, the longer it would take - 0's are just skipped because there's nothing to block the movement.

Adding 1 to 1+1+1+1 in binary = 11111

Adding 1 to 0+0+0+0 in binary = 1

[Qfwfq]

Space is what matter occupies.

Space is that in which motion occurs.

 

Space is the fact that things may have different positions, nearer or further from each other and in different directions.

 

Time is the fact that these things and their positions may change.

[damocles]

Taking the second point ,first. To be able to measure the speed of a single photon, you would have to isolate it from all other energy/photons across the complete spectrum. This would include removing all heat sources and reducing the temperature to absolute zero.

 

By WebFeet

 

 

How do you attain cessation of all motion?(cool to absolute zero?)

 

http://www.ph.rhbnc.ac.uk/schools/ZeroT/Absolute.html

 

http://www.ph.rhbnc.ac.uk/schools/ZeroT/Zero_Box4.html

[WebFeet]

How do you attain cessation of all motion?(cool to absolute zero?)

That was really my point. You can't. It is not possible to measure the speed of a photon in complete isolation.

 

The moment you achieve absolute zero, you achieve a uniformity across all energy/photons. Essentially you have reached a state of zero permeability, which because of the relationship between permeability and permittivity, you will reached absolute permittivity.

You have a uniformity containing all the energy in the Universe. You are back to where it all began, the pre Big Bang Singularity.

[damocles]

Originally Posted by damocles

How do you attain cessation of all motion?(cool to absolute zero?)

 

I brought this up in reference directly to The Great Rip Hypothesis, since that is one of the conditions that must obtain uniformly across all space/time for it to occur.

 

WebFeet Quote:

That was really my point. You can't. It is not possible to measure the speed of a photon in complete isolation.

 

The moment you achieve absolute zero, you achieve a uniformity across all energy/photons. Essentially you have reached a state of zero permeability, which because of the relationship between permeability and permittivity, you will reached absolute permittivity.

You have a uniformity containing all the energy in the Universe. You are back to where it all began, the pre Big Bang Singularity.

 

To accomplish this, the event has to be simultaneous, symmetric, and non-local across all space/time. That is triply mutually contradictory and impossible as long as you have more than two particles.

[WebFeet]

To accomplish this, the event has to be simultaneous, symmetric, and non-local across all space/time. That is triply mutually contradictory and impossible as long as you have more than two particles.

Surely that should read - more than one particle.

[CraigD]

That was really my point. You can't. It is not possible to measure the speed of a photon in complete isolation.

Is it necessary to measure it in complete isolation?

 

If the time (T) that a photon takes to cross a particular distance is related to the number (N) of photons it encounters, could one not increase N by supplying more photons (eg: perform the experiment during night, then day), and observe an increase in T?

[WebFeet]

If the time (T) that a photon takes to cross a particular distance is related to the number (N) of photons it encounters, could one not increase N by supplying more photons (eg: perform the experiment during night, then day), and observe an increase in T?

 

The issue here is the density of the photons.

 

If you accept that all particles decay to photons, then by introducing any foreign substance between the emitter and receiver you will increase the number of photons.

 

Complex particles require energy (photons) and extreme pressure to be created, like the core of a star. Once created under these pressures, they maintain a compressed structure until they decay down to their fundemental component.

So higher form particles and systems of particles - atoms, provide a more dense photon field.

 

This is why the speed of light is also referred to as being in a vacuum, where there is a minimum of foreign substances.

[WebFeet]

Is it necessary to measure it in complete isolation?

it is experimentally possible to measure this speed using only a single photon

 

My argument is that you can never isolate a single photon to be able to make any measurement of its velocity.

[sergey500]

Why do you think a photon needs something to travel through? If you think of a ball or a bullet, they move rather better without anything in the way, so why should a photon require a medium?

 

Space is probably quantised, if you get down small enough. Everything has to be, really. A continuous analogue slider is limited by the granularity of the atoms and the tunneling effects in the materials, and so is only capable of being set to discrete levels. It is just that they are so close as to blur into one range at almost any resolution.

 

No it traveling on ground where there is friction that would be a 2d medium.

[sergey500]

Let's preform a little thought experiment; Before the Big Bang, there existed a nothingness which nothing could exist within. As the great energy of the Big Bang was released, it created an energy matrix within which matter could exist. As this "energy bubble" expanded and cooled our present universe took on it's present character. At a point very distant in the future our universe will cool to the ultimate measure and Entropy will have reached it's limit. This raises a question in my mind; When this limit is reached, will this "energy bubble universe" cease to exist collapsing back into nothingness?????

 

Reminds me of the big crunch, but that works when the universe's gravity grows to large so the universe callopses on itself. Now my idea, irrelevant to this topic, is that when crashs back it exploded again creating anothing big bang and this continues, but this still returns to the the question, what the heck is the nothingness before the big bang, what i am trying to explain. I already got my answer though, Uniformed Energy.

 

By the way....the you guys like memorize the dicitonary? it took me 2 times to reread everything everyone posted to even comprehend your ideas. They are all very good points, all which I have an opinion, none of it would logical though. So with this many responses i take it was a good idea to ask this? great, but still my own asnwer, the Uniform Energy, seems wrong...something about it is amiss, but what ?

[damocles]

Surely that should read - more than one particle.

 

By WebFeet

 

 

Look at the Standard Model WebFeet.

 

Notice the quark triplets?

[WebFeet]

Look at the Standard Model WebFeet.

 

Notice the quark triplets?

 

Quarks decay to photons, so each quark is itself a system of photons.

 

If you have more than one photon, then you have multiple identities and any event cannot occur across all space/time because it will be local to a specific photon.

Only when all photons have the same identity can you have such an event.

 

As for reaching absolute zero to be able to measure a photon in isolation, the only thing left would be the photon and nobody around to take the measurement, let alone somewhere to have the result published !

[Qfwfq]

Quarks decay to photons, so each quark is itself a system of photons.

:eek2:

 

:xx:

[WebFeet]

my own asnwer, the Uniform Energy, seems wrong...something about it is amiss, but what ?

 

If in the beginning there is only energy, then that's all you have to play with.

 

So, IMO, Space being energy is the way to go, although it's not uniform. Each bit of energy exists in a unique position, with its own size and direction. It is the interaction of these seperate identities that not only provides us with space, but everything else as well.

 

Space may well just be the simplest arrangement of energy, with each particle having its own seperate identity. When these particles align themselves with other particles to form systems, they cease to be space and become a more complex particle.

 

From this, everyting can be built from Space and will eventually decay back to being Space.

[WebFeet]

Quarks decay to photons, so each quark is itself a system of photons.

 

Maybe decay was the wrong word to use, but essentially all quarks can be broken down directly or indirectly to the photon (energy).