sundog Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Freethinker, Yes, I understand what you are saying and I figured as much. I just wondered what christians think they are believing in. Whose story and whose teachings are they following. I'm not as well read as yourself, but I guessed it was something that went round by word of mouth before it went down in writing. We all know how stories change as they're relayed from one person to the next. Even exaggerations of first hand stories. Take for example the fisherman tales of "The 'whopper' that got away". I admire your determination in trying to get proof from those that claim it. And trying to get through those that say they will believe no matter what. It seems like a futile effort though, to try and show reason to some where 'reason' is just a 'through and out' process. I Just wanted to take a different approach. sundog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 One problem is that each individual Christian makes up their own version of what Christianity is. So each one would ahve to answer you question differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundog Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Originally posted by: FreethinkerOne problem is that each individual Christian makes up their own version of what Christianity is. So each one would ahve to answer you question differently. Yes, this is true. It will be interesting to hear their answers. If they dare answer, with you around sundog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 I guess we'll find out which side is more confident of their philosophy. If I scare Christians off, it is only because they KNOW they have nothing behind their beliefs. Even if they won't admit it in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Originally posted by: sundog Yes, this is true. It will be interesting to hear their answers. If they dare answer, with you around And we get silence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Perhaps Sundog can get his questions answered now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Martin Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 This seems like a good pot to stir FT, you should have plenty of opportunities to work on your new project here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Originally posted by: Uncle MartinThis seems like a good pot to stir FT, You know me too well already Unc! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Originally posted by: sundogMy thoughts on the bible. I cannot take what is written in the bible literally. For me it is too wide open to interpretation. It's 2000 years old and after writing, it has been translated and rewritten, I don't know how many times. The point is, I wonder how much of that 'original' story remains. To the christians I pose this- Do you believe the story/teachings of the bible have:- 1) lost 'nothing' through time and translation. 2) lost a little but retain the main concept. 3) lost a significant portion, but today's interpretation is satisfactory? 4) Other. (If so, what?) sundog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpenMind5 Posted October 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 OOO MY!!!!!!!!!! I thought I owuld check up on my post and i never knew it would grow sooo large! MY! I must say i am impressed! Thanks everone...maybe someone can fill me in so i don't have to read over 300 posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindagarrette Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Another questionnaire (old, but still pretty good). 1. How did you find out about your deity?__ Newspaper__ Bible__ Torah__ Koran__ Television__ Book of Mormon__ Divine Inspiration__ Dead Sea Scrolls__ My Mama or Dada Done Tol' Me__ Near Death Experience__ Near Life Experience__ UFO sighting, contact or abduction__ National Public Radio__ School__ Bookstore__ Tabloid__ Burning Shrubbery__ Other (specify): _____________ 2. Which model deity did you acquire?__ Jehovah__ Jesus__ Krishna__ Buddha__ Father, Son & Holy Ghost [Trinity Pak]__ Zeus and entourage [Olympus Pak]__ Odin and entourage [Valhalla Pak]__ Allah__ Satan__ Yourself__ Gaia/Mother Earth/Mother Nature__ God 1.0a (Angry Thunderer)__ God 1.0b (Cosmic Doughnut)__ Creation__ None of the above, I was taken in by a false god 3. Did your God come to you undamaged, with all parts in goodworking order and with no obvious breakage or missing attributes?__ Yes__ No If no, please describe the problems you initially encountered here.Please indicate all that apply:__ Not eternal__ Finite in space/Does not occupy or inhabit the entire cosmos__ Not omniscient__ Not omnipotent__ Not infinitely plastic (incapable of being all things to allcreations)__ Permits sex outside of marriage__ Prohibits sex outside of marriage__ Makes mistakes__ Condemns me with fear__ Creates War__ Makes or permits bad things to happen to good people__ Makes or permits good things to happen to bad people__ Looks after life other than that on Earth__ When beseeched, doesn't stay beseeched__ Requires burnt offerings__ Requires virgin sacrifices 4. What factors were relevant in your decision to acquire a deity?Please check all that apply.__ Indoctrinated by parents__ Needed a reason to live__ Indoctrinated by society__ Needed focus to despise__ Needed focus to love__ Imaginary friend grew up__ Hate to think for myself__ Wanted to meet girls/boys in church__ Fear of death__ Wanted to piss off parents__ Wanted to please parents__ Needed a day away from school or work__ Desperate need for certainty__ Like organ music__ Need to feel morally superior__ Thought Jerry Falwell was cool__ Thought there had to be something other than Jerry Falwell__ Sh-t was falling out of the sky__ My shrubbery caught fire and told me to do it__ Needed lover__ A need to justify myself 5. Have you ever worshipped a deity before? If so, which false godwere you fooled by? Please check all that apply.__ Baal__ The Almighty Dollar__ Left Wing Liberalism__ The Radical Right__ Amon Ra__ Beelzebub__ Bill Gates__ Barney The Big Purple Dinosaur__ The Great Spirit__ The Great Pumpkin__ The Sun__ The Moon__ The Force__ Cindy Crawford__ Elvis__ Art Bell__ A burning shrub__ Psychiatry__ Other: ________________ 6. Are you currently using any other source of inspiration inaddition to God? Please check all that apply.__ Tarot__ Lottery__ Astrology__ Television__ Fortune cookies__ Ann Landers__ Psychic Friends Network__ Dianetics__ Palmistry__ Playboy and/or Playgirl__ Self-help books__ Sex, drugs, and rock & roll__ Biorhythms__ Alcohol__ Marijuana__ Bill Clinton__ Tea Leaves__ EST__ Amway__ CompuServe__ Mantras__ Jimmy Swaggart__ Crystals__ Human sacrifice__ Pyramids__ Wandering around a desert__ Insurance policies__ Burning shrubbery__ Barney T.B.P.D.__ Barney Fife__ Other:_______________________ None 7. God reputedly employs a limited degree of Divine Intervention topreserve a balanced level of felt presence and blind faith. Which would youprefer? Circle one below: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crin Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 But God must exist. He is imperative: The idea of something Perfect (un-stop*-able) must exist. (it must ACTUALLY be un-stop*-able) But this means everything must be perfect. Your fingernails must be perfect. So must the chair you are sitting on. So must everything; The idea of everything Perfect (everything un-stop*-able) must exist. But this second idea of everything being perfect is the first idea of something perfect with extensions. Being Perfect, it must have controlled these extensions; So there is an all powerful being who unites the world to himself thus making it Perfect. To put it simply, there is a "God" who "loves" the world. The asterix (*) denotes any arguments in your mind now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Originally posted by: crinBut God must exist. He is imperative:Prove it.The idea of something Perfect (un-stop*-able) must exist. (it must ACTUALLY be un-stop*-able)Prove itBut this means everything must be perfect. Your fingernails must be perfect. So must the chair you are sitting on. So must everything;Actually my nails are a little long right now. Need to cut them to play guitar.The idea of everything Perfect (everything un-stop*-able) must exist.Where do you come up with this stuff from?But this second idea of everything being perfect is the first idea of something perfect with extensions.My "hair stylist" does extensions. Says there's big money in it. Being Perfect, it must have controlled these extensions;Pamela Anderson?So there is an all powerful being who unites the world to himself thus making it Perfect. To put it simply, there is a "God" who "loves" the world.So much it continually destroys it with floods, droughts, earthquakes, .... Show us ANYTHING that supports this claim, other than your claim of it being so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crin Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 The reason it has to exist is that if the idea of something ABSOLUTELY Perfect, un-limit*-ed, and un-stop*-able does not exist, it is a contradiction. If you are thinking of something ABSOLUTELY Perfect (un-stop*-able), no arguments in your mind can stop it, so it must actually be un-stop*-able. If it isn't, then what you are thinking of obviously isn't Perfect and un-stop*-able, for it has been stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crin Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 But we can't comprehend how the world is Perfect. The circuitry in our brains has evolved to light fires and hunt buffalo, and generally operate in the bit of the universe we can see. We call floods and earthquakes "bad" because evolution has taught us to find gene-sustaining things enjoyable. "good" may not always be enjoyable, if you believe there is a thing called "good". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Originally posted by: crinThe reason it has to exist is that if the idea of something ABSOLUTELY Perfect, un-limit*-ed, and un-stop*-able does not exist, it is a contradiction.This is not a PROOF, it is an explanation. All you are doing is telling us why YOU think this is so. You are not PROVING it to be so. Your claim is merely that if we can THINK something it must be real. That if we can have an "idea of something", it therefore must exist. Sorry, no cigar! Unless you can provide PROOF to the contrary, there is nothing to support a claim that a perfect thing has to exist. If you are thinking of something ABSOLUTELY Perfect (un-stop*-able), no arguments in your mind can stop it, so it must actually be un-stop*-able.CIRCULUS IN DEMONSTRANDO (circular logic, sorry)If it isn't, then what you are thinking of obviously isn't Perfect and un-stop*-able, for it has been stopped.So if you fall asleep ever again it is proof that no god exists. OK, we can stop here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Originally posted by: crinBut we can't comprehend how the world is Perfect.Especially when we see all of the massive imperfections. It is emperical. The circuitry in our brains has evolved to light fires and hunt buffalo,At elast we won;t ahve to go over Evolution again! Thanks! We call floods and earthquakes "bad" because evolution has taught us to find gene-sustaining things enjoyable. "good" may not always be enjoyable, if you believe there is a thing called "good".This opens some big flood gates! (And earthquakes?) :-) Yes we typically base our analysis on what is best for the "greatest good", the largest group of humans. Why not? However I could see where specific earthquakes or floods could be considered GOOD. Such as perhaps a highly localized totally destructive flood or earthquake around Crawford, TX could be a GOOD thing! But as this is a thread about god, and we are discussing what "good" is, and if there were an all powerful (Christian type) god which would therefore be directly resonsbile for any floods or earthquake, then based on this killing thousands of people is a good thing. IF "god is good". Then anything it does would be GOOD and GOOD would then have no meaning other than "something god did". It could be completely arbitrary and subjective, completely contradictory from instant to instant, and it would all still be good!. e.g. an estimated 65% of all fertilized human eggs do not come to term, mainly going thru spontaneous ABORTION. This makes god the most prolific abortionist ever. It would also then establish aborting the majority of "unborn babies" to be a GOOD thing. Seems Christians are protesting on the wrong side! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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