Can the world change?

[Phire]

This is going to be very straight foward and in your face. I hope not to offend, but only to inliven.

First, let introduce myself. I am a regular college student, living in North America. I have job and are enrolled in the natural science program. Ok, enough of that. Ever since I was young, probably like many of you, I had the ambition to change the world and make it a better place. As I grew older, I found that their was a lot of evil and bad things that happen constantly in the world. It sickened me that we let this happen. But to my young dooey eyes, it seemed so simple, all you had to do was this and that and all would be solved. Ah yes, but as you grow older, you begin to appreciate the complexity of life, espicially human life. I began loosing hope in this world, until I began reading this book (I don't want to make an add or anything so in case you want to know which book it is just contact me). This book gave me some hope, althought it had absolutly nothing to do with the environment or anything. It thought me about the idea of synergy, which is basically putting are heads together not to compromise but to create an even better solution then we could alone. Well, this brings me here. Where better to talk about such a lively issue! Please read the whole post, before commenting or moving on. It will be worth it .

 

My question, which is the topic's title, is: "Can the world change". Its sorta broad as far as questions go. In a sense it has always been changing. Moreover on the good then on the bad, depending on who you talk to. What saddens me the most is, over all the generations, behind all the great inventions and after all the great books, why do we still let other human beings suffer? The answer, to put it simply our narrowminded vision. To specify, we create psychological, social, economic and otherwise artificial and nonexistant barriers the prevent us from achieving great heights. Hmmm, the last part seems quite hard to understand. Let me give you some examples. Money. Money makes the world go round, right? Well, it was kind of fabricated by us to help us trade different comidities and services and for that purpose it suited us very well. Then, we began putting monetary value on everything and anything, including human life. Now, please tell me how this doesn't seem ludicrous. Millions of tons of good quality grain from the U.S. and Canada and probably many other nations go destroyed or sunk to the bottom of the ocean, instead of feeding the hungry mouths of the world. It simply an economical reason. Money has become our primary goal in life. Now, their are many people who don't fit in this category, which is very good. But to most western, industrialized countries, money and otherwise material wealth is key to living. We have essentially trapped ourselves with our silver coins and paper bills. We must begin replacing this goal with something more long-term. How can we ever approach a better life for human beings in general if we tie ourselves down with frivilous things.

 

This is a call to all humanity. We need to smarten up. What a mouthful that was! And probably many of you are already tempted to stop reading, thinking I'm preaching some glorious word. I want this to be a discussion on how we can solve the many problems facing us. Here are some of my concerns:

 

- Humans vs Nature (Otherwise known as the Environment): It's not suppose to be fight. We were made by nature and are a part of it. Let's try to live together a little more nicely, or else nature will kick us out. Here are such problems as pollution, depletion of ressources and biodiversity.

 

- Human vs Human: War, viruses, fights, culture asimilations and sociopolitical issues are some the topics to be discussed here.

 

- Nature vs Humans: Weather problems, asteroids and any major extinction events are here.

 

-Technology vs Nature/Humans: The proverbial Matrix dilemma and such.

 

We should seriously discuss and act on some the

[Tormod]

No, I don't think you have posted in the wrong forums. Perhaps your post is a bit long (people here tend to skip the long posts... ).

 

I would like to point out that our current technological development is based on what happened during the industrial revolution from around 1750. People central in the industrial revolution (Matthew Boulton, Josiah Wedgwood, James Watt, Erasmus Darwin to mention some) really believed that their application of science to technology - ie, using natural philosophy to introduce a capitalist society - was a way to improve the world. And I think a lot of good things came out of that (mass production means jobs for many people, for example).

 

But what has happened since then? Well, a technological society based on capitalism also means that most people will be wage slaves and have to spend most of their lives working to make ends meet.

 

By "capitalist" I don't mean just "Western" economy - any economy based on exploiting the work power of the masses fall into this category. Which means just about any economy around the world as of today. Communist economy is no different - it is basically based on less cash changing hands, but nonetheless exploitation.

 

Any economy needs a philosophy which claims it provides the society (upon which it is built) with many good things - like personal freedom, purchase power (or at least access to necessary goods like food and water).

 

I don't have a point yet - but I think the heading "Humans vs Nature (OKAT Environment) is a difficult one. A lot of people will claim that todays society is just the way nature is - or at least human nature. And the fact is that it has turned out the way it is because of our long history of warfare, extortion and hunger for natural resources. I don't think nature will kick us out. If we die out, it will be because of nature, yes, but not because of any "conscient" objection on nature's behalf.

 

But that does not mean things can't change. Scientific progress is not only the Frankenstein monster a lot of people think it is. There are a lot of beautiful things coming out of scientific progress - like the Internet, world wide communication, new medicines, more leisure time (for the lucky few, obviously)...

 

Well, just a few thoughts from me...

 

Tormod

[Phire]

Hey, I'm really glad you responded to my post. BTW, I just want to congradulate you on such a great site. When, I found it, I litterary smiled. I am very passionate about science and this site is like my one stop shop.

 

OK, now back to the topic. I agree capitilism has brought a lot of good to humankind. And I don't disagree with it's principles. However, all the bad things are associated with disturb me, such as the destruction of our environment and the greed and lack of moral values present. But then again, as you said, it is in our nature. But, can we let that be our "excuse" for not making something better or creating some new system intirely? Also, I didn't mean that nature would take some conscious decision on destroy the human race. Rather, it would be nature adapting itself to our condition which would eventually lead to our destruction. Simply, all the crap we do to nature doesn't benifit us. Destroying trees gives you less oxygen and more erosion and more deserts. Polluting the water kills fishes which give less food. You see, less we care about nature, the less nature will be here to support our needs. If that ever happens, we would have two choices. Choice one is death. Choice two is design system to replace all the diverse system already in place in nature. We would need to create our own food, own pure drinkable water, our own air, our world, basically. Why would anyone would like carelessly give away everything that has been given to you away to get something thats second rate that probably will just end up only delaying the inevitable for some time. That's my point. I will try to keep its shorter next time hehe. And Again any comments would be greatly appreciated!

[Tim_Lou]

hmmm...

you said that we humans are damaging the environment in order to live.

but i dont think so.

actually, we have never changed anything, it was the nature changing.

everything we did, is a adaptation to the natures. we cut trees, because we need wood to make things, which is a way to adapt to the nature. when trees are lacking, we cut less trees and plant some more.

humans have never done a thing to damage the nature, the nature has never been damaged. its our way of adapting to it. We cut trees, we kill animals, we posion our environment, and some of us tried to protect it, to plants trees, protect the animals, reduce pollution.....all are the ways that we adapt to the nature. but it is hard to argue about which way is the best. as time goes on, the people that did the wrong way would be eliminate.

Humans are actually a part of the nature. we do these because of the nature, the nature made us like this, it made us do those things. it was evolution changed us like this.

 

you said that if it can be changed... it can, but not by us, by the nature. as time goes on, humans would evolve and eliminate the unadaptable one. (which we dont know which one would be eliminate).

[TINNY]

i dont agree with that. we cant just leave it and let nature take care of itself.

by the way, i wonder whehter there is anything we have done that has helped the world. every single invention...cars, houses,...all are destroying the world. cars pollute the air, houses use wood, clears forests... the world was just so perfect before humans arrived that whatever we do seems to disrupt its harmony in one way or another.

it seems that the only way to protect the world is by not having modernisation.

yours confused,

TINNY.

[Tim_Lou]

you are saying that we are totally useless and harmful to the whole world.

but we are organsims, our "job" is to live, to live, we have to use cars, lumbers, food.......

the nature is like this, the weak will be eliminated itself. everyone human being is somewhat jealous, we care about us the most. dont say that you dont use cars, you dont live in houses, you dont eat food or anthing like that... thats the nature of us, as Tormod said above.

im not saying that we should not care about the environment, im saying that we did not actually harm the nature. we are made by the nature. The way we are, the nature should get the credit of making it like this.

[Phire]

I am afraid I also disagree with you Tim. We don't need cars to live. We do not need clothes nor do we need houses. Yes, to live all a man or woman or child needs is air that you and I breath, the water we all drink, the food we all eat and hopefully some love to go around. Cars, houses, clothes and most of human creations permit man more comfort, more conveniance and more protection. They are all good ideas. But like many good ideas, they have problems. Cars pollute the air we breath, houses invade vast amounts of land that is not required and it creates further distances between people thus needing a car. Anyways, I not the one who first realized all these things. I have to thank David Suzuki, Masanobu Fukuoka and many teachers I have had. Human beings can very well go one for a few hundred years without caring too much about what condition they are leaving the enviroment. But sooner or later it will catch up. Sporatic weather and odd tempartures are just the tip of the melting iceberg. I wish more people would be interested in this topic. You guys should check out Sacred Balance.

 

This is just my two nickels.

 

Phire

[Tim_Lou]

well, if cars, houses, mechines...had not been invented, what would the world be?

we would probably be like other orangisms and live in forest or someplace like that.

these things are surely bad, i agree. but dont tell me that you have no benefit from it.

this is our advanced and also a part of the evolution to have such great inventions that made us live better than any other orangisms in the world.

[TINNY]

if not for those materialistic stuff, the world would be a most harmonious and peaceful place.

you shouldn't think about the short term benefits by neglecting the long term effects.

anyway, we wont live better than other organisms by that. because we will suffer in the end.

You should see the universe as a united whole. the universe came about from light, which created matter, space and time. (big bang theory). we are made of proteins and DNAs, which are molecules, which are made up of atoms, sub atomic particles .....

(sorry if this is rubbish).

[Tim_Lou]

long term effects??? who cares about long term effects??? about 100 years later, you are dead already, whats the meaning of caring long term effects??

[TINNY]

man...you're so self-centred. imagine if everybody that lived one hundred years ago think like you. what would the world be right now. you would be almost dead. anyway, what about your children? survival of the human race?

you suck man....

[Tim_Lou]

self-centred?? everyone is self-centered. your life is for yourself, you know what you think, you know everything about yourself but not other. if you say that your not jealous, your lying. maybe my post sounds little crazy before...but now, here is my point:

 

actually, the question of whether industry is good for us is never known.

if we dont improve our technology, somehow one day, there would be whatever meteor crash the earth or aliens....whatever...and everything would be destroyed. today's society, is a benefit for us, a benefit compare to the whole universe, to the whole world, not just the earth.

when we have enough technology, we can somehow get out of earth and avoid those meteor or stuff like that. also, new developments might be able to fix our "damage" to the nature.

if we jsut remains the same, that would be a great failure of human. we humans are weak, we dont run as fast as other animals, we are not big or powerful or very adaptable to the environment. the only advance of us is our brain, the brain of developing new stuffs, the brain of industry. think about the countries in the earth, british, US, German....all benefited from the industry revolution. where some other countries remain poor without it. it is the selective of human nature. industry=money=food=survive... thats the way the society is. if you dont agree, try and change it, see if you can do anything. yeah, you can change yourself to stop using these industry stuffs. but when you see others using these things have great advantage on you and YOU WILL HAVE NO CHOICE. (things such as computers you are using, houses and calculator [lets see if you would not use calculator in a test while everyone else does])

 

also, if we dont use these advantages, sure we can live....but we would not be like what we are right now and "superior" to other organisms. other animals with better skills, better strength, faster speed...would kill us and eat us. and we would be either like the dinosaurs and disappear in the history of the universe or evolve into something like dogs, monkeys, cats, birds.....whatever...

[TINNY]

that's a good point. i'll ponder some more...

[TINNY]

would there ever be enough knowledge/technology to fix earth? it seems every good thing has a bad side effect. its because the universe is in such a perfect harmony down to the smallest detail at the subatomic level. if we change it, we upset the balance.

[Snaky Dave]

Hello Phire, I also believe it possible to change the world through intelligent ideas rather than bombs, and at 53 am no longer afraid of what people might think of me for trying. There is room for much discussion here, I don't know if I have found all of the answers but it hardly matters, as mostly I am interested in just getting people thinking. I am writing my own book covering a number of different angles, but for now here is something I believe is one of the main components. I presented it some months ago to a pagan website, but it is now lost under piles of other mail and obviously I need to learn how to arrange my own webpage. See what you think, and I will write you some more in the next few days, after I have looked at all your notes. I only have Internet access a couple of nights a week at my local school, so I need to learn how to make best use of it.

 

David Brock, Australia

[sanctus]

Hello everybody,

first of all I want to say that my mother-language isn't english, so excuse my language mistakes.

 

I just read through the whole post and here are my idaeas and personal answers:

 

1) Saying that we are a product of nature and therefore everything we do is "natural", made by nature doesn't justify our acts. This because we owe to nature our brain and that we CAN think, but I don't believe we owe to nature WHAT we effectively think.

 

2)About stopping pollution. One thinks that we have to stop pollution because pollution destroys the world, but meanwhile nature has adapted herself and there are now organisms (I know only about some bacteria in the sea, but there may be others) that live thanks to the pollution. The conclusion is we stop polluting and we harm nature as well. So, I believe that if we let nature up to herself she will manage to continue "living", maybe without an estinguished mankind and this brings me to the third point:

 

3)I completely agree we tim-Lou, we are self-centered in whatever we do, we do it for ourselves; I discussed about that the first time already a couple of years ago and I didn't like it , I didn't want to accept it, but I have not yet found something that proofs the contrary. If we take care of nature we do it for ourselves (because nature will survive also without us), we love to be loved, we respect to be respected and so on....

If somebody can proof the opposite I thank him/her very much, because I think we all agree that the perspective that we are in all and every action we make, self-centered is not very nice and heartening.

[my-toe-sis]

hello all, this is a great discussion. My two cents..... Sure people are self centered in a natural way because it is the basic survival and competition instinctis that drive us all in some form. However we have the obvious advantage to be able to understand the implications and consequences of our actions and decisions. Americans are possibly the worst and least efficient consumers on the planet. People make a conscious decision to do things that cause adverse effects when most of the time they are aware of the consequences.

 

It is also true that nature and natural process will always evolve to be the most efficient for any new condition/changes that arise, this is natures grand design. Then we need to ask if we are willing to give up the nature and current environment as we know it now for an environment that is addapted to polluted and degraded systems.. We can make that choice but i think the majority of human kind is not willing to actually sacrifice something of theirs for a more harmonious relationship with the natural earth. Why would they? most never get to out or slown down enough to appericate what might be lost. Confucious says..."It's hard to really appreciate something until it you have to live without it."