Substitute to Dark Matter?

[fatty_ashy]

hahaha...a cool thought just entered my mind when i was on the metro (trains, or MRT if u're singaporean). the rate in which the universe is accelerating right? now, the faster someone is going, the higher the inertia thus the higher the mass right?

that means the faster the expansion of the universe, the more mass the universe has! in which case, the "open" universe state isn't very realistic now is it

[Roberto]

The problem of the missing mass of the universe is more subtle, it arises from the fact that there is not enough matter, based on galaxy models, to hold the visible galaxies together. Even if you added the extra mass from the relativistic effects, you would have the same problem, because all the mass in the galaxy would be accelerating equally.

 

But the problem is worst. The galaxies are not truly accelerating because of the expansion of the universe. What we think it´s happening is that more space is being created and this rate is increasing, so you see the galxies becoming more distant without being truly accelerated. Weird, isn´t it?

[wavelength?]

Is it possible that dark matter could be made up of gravitons? My theory is that gravitons are pulled from space by the celestial bodys mass. For example on earth the gravitions are pulled in by earths mass and the closer they get to earth the faster they go thus increasing the gravity that we feel and keeping us on the surface. In space they would not be in motion and have no effect on us since we have very little mass.

[Roberto]

In fact, due to the characteristics of the gravitational interaction, gravitons are massless and always travel at the speed of light. So, the solution to the dark matter problem cannot be the gravitons.

[nick33]

The universe will expand for ever and its mass will become infinite, which makes no sense.

something is wrong with the accelerated expansion.

[Tormod]

nick33, you obviously have not read much about the big bang theory. Mass will not become "infinite". All matter has a half-life (even the fundamental particles) which means that everything breaks down into energy. The universe has a finite amount of energy, and as the universe expands this energy is spread over vast amounts of space. So it dilutes into nothing.

 

If the universe is not as flat as it is observed to be, then it may not be able escape it's own gravity and would eventually start contracting.

 

But neither way, the energy level in the universe is finite (at least in the observable universe).

 

But please - provide proof for your argument that there is something wrong with accelerated expansion. Or did you forget to read our FAQ?

 

Anyway, in our reviews section you will find a review of the book "Five ages of the Universe" which discusses what will happen if the universe expands forever.

 

http://www.hypography.com/Article.cfm?id=29590

 

Tormod

[nick33]

Thank for your comments Tormod. I appreciate your perception that universe has to be finite.

The point is how it remains always finite in a self-consistent way. This has nothing to do with calculations. This is much more basic than any mathematics. This is simple logic generated from one fractal like 3D-spiral structure as shown in the link below.

 

http://www.world-mysteries.com/toi_esavov.htm

 

 

To understand the universe we have to remove the singularity in the universe beginning.

[CD27]

if i may, i would like to comment on my own idea of what "dark matter" is. if i am wrong wiht the definition, please correct me. dark matter is matter that is "missing", right? an example. let's say you're looking at a planet. for some reason this planet is revolving around, well, nothing. you can't find what it's revolving around. if that's the case, the solution is simple. perhaps the "missing matter" is in another dimension. perhaps our dimension and that other dimension are temporarily/permanently connected through some sort of bridge. and if that "star" that this planet is roting around is in the other dimension, it would not be visible to us, and thus would be "missing matter" or "dark matter" as some may call it.

 

am i correct?

[CD27]

to comment on nick33,

 

if the big bang is true, which i belive in it because it has great evidence and nothing tells me that it is wrong, then eprhaps the universe is still expanding. it is in one of two stages, which is yet unknown to us. 1)it is still accelerating from the initial blast of the big bang, 2) it is slowing down from the initial blast of the big bang. eaither way, i simply don't see how dark matter could be connected with any of that. it is much deeper than that, something we as humans have not grasped yet.

[Bo]

Some remarks: the increase of mass by accelaration isn't correct here; that is because not the particles in the space are accelarating, but space itself. Then there are no effects like the increase of mass. (i hope this sounds sinsible; it's late here in holland and i dont know of a nice analogy at the moment).

further: there are 2 concepts used not always correctly in the above discussion: Dark matter is a 'sollution' for the apparently missing matter in the gravitational attraction in galaxy's (there are other sollutions like Modified newtonian dynamics: http://www.astro.umd.edu/~ssm/mond/astronow.html]."]http://www.astro.umd.edu/~ssm/mond/astronow.html Dark Energy Is used for the extra repulsive force present in the universe that causes the current accalaration of the univers (which is not understood by normal general relativity)

There are models in String theory That predict that although normal matter is confined in our normal 4D world, the gravitons can travel to these extra dimensions (at large scales) This oss of gravitons is effectivly seen as a repulsive force, thus taking the dark energy into account. I once read something that on smaller scales this process could explain the dark matter problem; but i forgot how.

Bo

[Freethinker]

Thanks for the new article Tormod.

 

"More to the universe than meets the eye"

 

It brings up a qquestion that perhaps some reader might be able to help me with.

 

Especially with this possible resolution of Dark Matter/ Dark Energy, are we coming around to the "ether" again?

[oblivion]

All in all, ether = true. Universe = one.

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: oblivion

All in all, ether = true. Universe = one.

 

This is another meaningless post. You fail to provide any proof to support your strange claims.

 

Quote from the FAQ:

"1. If you make strange claims, please provide proof."

 

Tormod

[oblivion]

Looking at the universe from the outside = one. Ether (if you want to call it that and keeping things simple) = bond within everything inside the universe. In retrospect, I found Freethinker's comment interesting. Get off my case.

[IrishEyes]

From oblivion:

Get off my case.

 

Ok, ob- that's about enough. Were you directing the 'get off my case' to Tormod? Are you nuts? That's twice in the last 24 hours that you've managed to be either rude or insulting to established members or editors of this forum. Are you trying to get blocked? In case you haven't noticed, the people in this forum all try to respect each other's opinions, and when we get out of line, we correct each other. You've been asked repeatedly to elaborate on your one word interjections, yet you usually will not. You've been specifically instructed by Tormod, THE EDITOR OF THE SITE, to stick to the established FAQ guidelines, yet you refuse, and in this case, actually appear both rude and disrespectful. Luckily for us all, I am not the editor, and Tormod has been kind enough to give you chance after chance. You are truly fortunate. However, you are contributing nothing to these discussions, and are actually managing to either offend members or run threads off track. I strongly encourage Tormod to block you. Failing that, I encourage other Forum members to refrain from answering or acknowledging anything posted by you, as previously suggested by FreeThinker in another thread.

 

On a final note, most everyone in this Forum looks up to and respects Tormod immensely. In other words, you picked the wrong target this time. Next time, try someone that is not so respected. If you need some suggestions, I'll be happy to provide them! But do not try to belittle the editor. How moronic can you get???!!???

[oblivion]

"Ok, ob- that's about enough. Were you directing the 'get off my case' to Tormod?"

 

Yes.

 

"Are you nuts?"

 

No.

 

"That's twice in the last 24 hours that you've managed to be either rude or insulting to established members or editors of this forum."

 

False. Standing my ground.

 

"Are you trying to get blocked?"

 

No.

 

"You've been asked repeatedly to elaborate on your one word interjections, yet you usually will not."

 

I answered all questions.

 

"actually appear both rude and disrespectful. "

 

False. Standing my ground.

 

"you are contributing nothing to these discussions"

 

Read my posts. Start with this thread.

 

"run threads off track."

 

False, all posts are topic related. You are doing this though right now.

 

"I strongly encourage Tormod to block you."

 

Stop crying.

 

"On a final note, most everyone in this Forum looks up to and respects Tormod immensely."

 

and?

 

"But do not try to belittle the editor. "

 

I didn't. However, read your post which is directed at me.

 

"How moronic can you get???!!???"

 

Again, reflect on your own post.

[IrishEyes]

Everything between the quotes is from ob. The replies are mine.

 

False, all posts are topic related. You are doing this though right now.

Your posts have not all been topic related. You post one word replies, or convoluted short thoughts that beg explanations. People must use their time to ask for clarification, which runs the threads off track. What *I* am doing right now is part of being a moderator. I review posts for content, can edit, delete, or move posts, etc. I try to keep up with all new posts, though I am not nearly as effective as some. You have been asked by the site editor to refrain from your typical one word replies. Me bringing it up again should not be necessary.

 

Stop crying.

This is laughable!! I doubt very much that anything that you could ever write could bring me to tears, except maybe tears of laughter, as has already happened!!

 

read your post which is directed at me.

I read it several times before it was posted. I was neither inflammatory, nor rude. I did not call you names, nor did I direct coded phrases at you. I was very straightforward.

 

Again, reflect on your own post.

Not necessary, but thanks for the advice. If you feel I was either rude or insulting, say so in plain English, or whichever your native tongue might be. I am fairly proficient in at least 5 languages, so I'm guessing I'll figure out whatever you manage to post. Your attempts at being clever are just that though - attempts, and failed ones at that. The question 'How moronic can you get?' was rhetorical. It neither begged nor required an answer from you.

 

My educated guess would be you are fast approaching not being allowed to post here much longer. I can't say I'll miss you. However, in the interest of fairness, I also once felt that way about FreeT, and I just can't imagine this forum without him. So 'time will tell', but I would suggest that you either change the content or structure of your posts if you wish to remain a contributing member. These are DISCUSSION FORUMS. Discussion is not only implied, but actually looked forward to by most members. Think on that before your next post.