The Fine Tuning In The Universe

[meridian2]

The fine tuning in the universe

 

He Who created the seven heavens in layers. You will not find any flaw in the creation of the All-Merciful. Look again—do you see any gaps? Then look again and again. Your sight will return to you dazzled and exhausted! (Qur’an, 67:3-4)

 

He to Whom the kingdom of the heavens and the earth belongs. He does not have a son and He has no partner in the Kingdom. He created everything and determined it most exactly. (Qur’an, 25:2)

 

Materialist philosophy emerged with the claim that all the systems in nature and the universe were like machines that functioned on their own, that the flawless order and balance within them were the work of chance. However, today, the false nature of materialism and of Darwinism, its so-called scientific foundation, has been scientifically demonstrated. (See Harun Yahya, The Evolution Deceit, and Darwinism Refuted)

 

 

The scientific discoveries of the 20th century that followed swiftly, one after the other, in the fields of astrophysics and biology have proved that life and the universe were created. As the theses of Darwinism collapsed, the Big Bang theory has shown that the universe was created from nothing.

Discoveries have revealed that there is a great design and fine-tuning in the material world and this has categorically demonstrated the groundless nature of the claims of materialism.

 

Considering the conditions necessary for life, we see that only the Earth meets these particular conditions. For an environment suitable for life, there are innumerable conditions taking place simultaneously and unceasingly all around us. There are some hundred billion galaxies, each with-on average-a hundred billion stars. In all the galaxies, there are perhaps as many planets as stars.1 In the face of such overpowering numbers, one can better comprehend the significance of the formation of such an exceptional environment on the Earth.

 

 

From the force of the Big Bang explosion to the physical values of atoms, from the levels of the four basic forces to the chemical processes in the stars, from the type of light emitted by the Sun to the level of viscosity of water, from the distance of the Moon to the Earth to the level of gases in the atmosphere, from the Earth's distance from the Sun to its angle of tilt to its orbit, and from the speed at which the Earth revolves around its own axis to the functions of the oceans and mountains on the Earth: every single detail is ideally suited to our lives. Today, the world of science describes these features by means of the concepts of the "Anthropic Principle" and "Fine-Tuning." These concepts summarise the way that the universe is not an aimless, uncontrolled, chance collection of matter but that it has a purpose directed towards human life and has been designed with the greatest precision.

 

Attention is drawn in the above verses to the measure and harmony in Allah's creation. The word "taqdeer," meaning "to design, measure, create by measuring," is employed in Qur'anic verses such as Surat al-Furqan 2. The word "tibaaq," meaning "in harmony," is used in Surat al-Mulk 3 and Surah Nuh 15. Furthermore, Allah also reveals in Surat al-Mulk with the word "tafaawut," meaning "disagreement, violation, non-conformity, disorder, opposite," that those who seek disharmony will fail to find it.

 

The term "fine-tuning," which began to be used towards the end of the 20th century, represents this truth revealed in the verses. Over the last quarter-century or so, a great many scientists, intellectuals and writers have shown that the universe is not a collection of coincidences. On the contrary, it has an extraordinary design and order ideally suited to human life in its every detail. (See Harun Yahya, The Creation of the Universe and A Chain of Miracles) Many features in the universe clearly show that the universe has been specially designed to support life. The physicist Dr. Karl Giberson expresses this fact thus:

 

In the 1960s, some physicists observed that our universe appears to have been fine-tuned for the existence of human life. 2

 

The Speed of the Big Bang Explosion:

 

The balances established with the Big Bang, the instantaneous formation of the universe, are one of the proofs that the universe did not come into being by chance. According to the well-known Adelaide University professor of mathematical physics Paul Davies, if the rate of expansion that took place following the Big Bang had been just one in a billion billion parts different (1/1018), the universe could not have come into being. 3

 

The Four Forces:

 

All physical motion in the universe comes about thanks to the interaction and equilibrium of the four forces recognised by modern physics: gravity, electromagnetic force, strong nuclear force and weak nuclear force. These forces possess extraordinarily different values to one another.4

 

The Distances between Celestial Bodies:

 

The distribution of celestial bodies in space and the enormous spaces between them are essential to the existence of life on Earth. The distances between celestial bodies have been set out in a calculation compatible with a great many powerful universal forces in such a way as to support life on Earth.5

 

Gravity:

 

- If gravity were stronger, excessive ammonia and methane would collect in the Earth's atmosphere, which would have a most damaging effect on life.

- If it were weaker, the Earth's atmosphere would lose excessive quantities of water, making life impossible.

 

The Earth’s Distance from the Sun:

 

- If this were any greater, the planet would grow very cold, the water cycle in the atmosphere would be affected, and the planet would enter an ice-age.

- If the Earth were any closer to the Sun, plants would burn up, the water cycle in the Earth's atmosphere would be irreparably damaged, and life would become impossible.

 

 

The Thickness of the Earth’s Crust:

 

- If the crust were any thicker, then an excessive amount of oxygen would be transferred to it from the atmosphere.

- If it were any thinner, the resulting amount of volcanic activity would make life impossible.

 

The Speed at which the Earth Revolves:

 

- If this were any slower, the temperature difference between day and night would grow enormously.

- If it were any faster, then atmospheric winds would reach enormous speeds, and cyclones and storms would make life impossible.

 

The Earth’s Magnetic Field:

 

- If this were any more powerful, very strong electromagnetic storms would arise.

- If it were any weaker, then the Earth would lose its protection against the harmful particles given off by the Sun and known as solar winds. Both situations would make life impossible.

 

The Albedo Effect (The Fraction of Light Reflected by the Earth):

 

- If this were any greater, an ice-age would rapidly result.

- If it were any less, the greenhouse effect would lead to excessive warming. The Earth would first be flooded with the melting of the glaciers, and would then burn up.

 

The Proportion of Oxygen and Nitrogen in the Atmosphere:

 

- If this were any greater, vital functions would be adversely accelerated.

- If it were any less, vital functions would adversely slow down.

 

The Proportion of Carbon Dioxide and Water in the Atmosphere:

 

- If this were any greater, the atmosphere would overheat.

- If it were any less, the temperature of the atmosphere would fall.

 

The Thickness of the Ozone Layer:

 

- If this were any greater, the Earth's temperature would fall enormously.

- If it were any less, the Earth would overheat and be defenceless against the harmful ultraviolet rays emitted by the Sun.

 

Seismic Activity (Earthquakes):

 

- If this were any greater, there would be constant upheaval for living things.

- If it were any less, the nutrients at the sea bottom would fail to spread into the water. This would have a damaging effect on life in the seas and oceans and all living things on Earth.

 

The Earth’s Angle of Tilt:

 

The Earth has a 23 degree angle of inclination to its orbit. It is this inclination that gives rise to the seasons. If this angle were any greater or any less than it is now, the temperature difference between the seasons would reach extreme dimensions, with unbearably hot summers and bitterly cold winters.

 

The Size of the Sun:

 

A smaller star than the Sun would mean the Earth would freeze and a larger star would lead to its burning up.

 

The Attraction between the Earth and the Moon:

 

- If this were any greater, the powerful attraction of the Moon would have extremely serious effects on atmospheric conditions, the speed at which the Earth revolves around its own axis and on the ocean tides.

- If it were any less, this would lead to extreme climate changes.

 

The Distance between the Earth and the Moon:

 

 

- If they were just a little closer, the Moon would crash into the Earth.

- If they were any further, the Moon would become lost in space.

- If they were even a little closer, the Moon's effect on the Earth's tides would reach dangerous dimensions. Ocean waves would inundate low-lying areas. The friction emerging as a result of this would raise the temperature of the oceans and the sensitive temperature balance essential to life on

Earth would disappear.

 

- If they were even a little further away, the tides would decrease, leading the oceans to be less mobile. Immobile water would endanger life in the seas, and the level of the oxygen we breathe would be endangered.6

 

The Temperature of the Earth and Carbon-Based Life:

 

The existence of carbon, the basis of all life, depends on the temperature remaining within specific limits. Carbon is an essential substance for organic molecules such as amino-acid, nucleic acid and protein: These constitute the basis of life. For that reason, life can only be carbon-based. Given this, the existing temperature needs to be no lower than -20 degrees and no higher than 1200 Celsius (2480 F). These are just the temperature limits on Earth.

 

These are just a few of the exceedingly sensitive balances which are essential for life on Earth to have emerged and to survive. Yet even these are sufficient to definitively reveal that the Earth and the universe could not have come into being as the result of a number of consecutive coincidences. The concepts of "fine-tuning" and the "anthropic principle" that began to be employed in the 20th century are further evidence of Allah's creation. The harmony and proportion therein were described with magnificent accuracy fourteen centuries ago in the Qur'an.

(Harun Yahya article)

 

 

1- Carl Sagan, Cosmos, (Avenel, NJ: Wings Books: April 1983), 5-7.

2- Karl Giberson, "The Anthropic Principle," Journal of Interdisciplinary Studies 9 (1997). (emphasis added)

3- Paul Davies, Superforce: The Search for a Grand Unified Theory of Nature, 1984, 184.

4- Michael Denton, Nature's Destiny: How the Laws of Biology Reveal Purpose in the Universe, (New York: The Free Press, 1998), 12-13.

5- Michael Denton, Nature's Destiny: How the Laws of Biology Reveal Purpose in the Universe, (New York: The Free Press, 1998), 11.

6- "The Elemental Forces of the Universe;" http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/01-ma10.htm#Elemental Forces

[Donk]

Interesting.

 

I haven't had a good debate with a True Believer for a long time now. ;)

 

There are many items in your long screed I could take issue with, but I'll limit my comments to just the two, which I'm sure even a True Believer will have to agree with.

 

Firstly, everywhere you use the word "life" you have to replace it with "life as we know it". The Earth has had many different temperatures and atmospheric compositions over the millions of years of its existence. Life started on on a very different planet to the one we have now.

 

Second (though I'm sure this one is just your misreading of your Holy Book, rather than a fundamental error in your thesis):

The Earth has a 23 degree angle of inclination to its orbit. It is this inclination that gives rise to the seasons. If this angle were any greater or any less than it is now, the temperature difference between the seasons would reach extreme dimensions, with unbearably hot summers and bitterly cold winters.

Really? Would a smaller angle of inclination give an extreme temperature difference between the seasons? Clearly not. As I say, you've probably misread the Prophet :)

 

The question I can never get a True Believer to answer, though, is this one:

 

Granted that he did all this, and maybe he's still doing it. Why? And what does he want us to do? And please, don't tell me that he wants me to go down on my knees and grovel. I just don't believe that any sane being would even want to be worshipped, let alone demand it. So what are we here for?

[sigurdV]

I haven't had a good debate with a True Believer for a long time now. ;)

 

And you probably wont, did you notice that he lets you wait?

[Eudoxus]

The universe is so fine tuned for life, and not just life but the specific human species, that, to a reasonably approximation, 100% of the universe is immediately deadly to any and all human life.

 

Hard vacuum is deadly to humans.

Pressure above about two atmospheres is deadly to humans.

Inhalation of the second-most common molecule in the universe (H2O) is deadly to humans.

Inhalation of the most common molecule in the universe (H2) is deadly in sufficient quantity.

An oxygen concentration below ~10% is deadly to humans.

A carbon dioxide concentration above ~5% is deadly to humans.

Many other gases are deadly in quantities as low as 0.1%.

Radiation in any significant quantity is deadly to humans.

Heat in excess of ~40*C is deadly to humans.

Cold below ~15*C is deadly to humans.

 

We do not breathe interstellar hydrogen.

We do not drink incandescent plasma.

We cannot naturally navigate between celestial bodies.

Even if we could, we do not live long enough for it to be feasible.

 

 

 

There is only one planet known to us that will support human life. Earth. The rest of the universe is hostile to us. And the Earth is a tiny, tiny, tiny, almost immeasurable fraction of the entire universe.

 

99.99999999999999...% of the universe is instant death to humans. And as anyone who likes math is sure to know, 0.99999999...=1.

 

So the percentage of the universe that is instant death to human life is, to any reasonable approximation, 100%.

 

 

 

Yes. Well-tuned.

[Eudoxus]

Also note I said "there is only one planet known to us" that can support human life. There may be others. We don't know yet. We've found one or two that might be able to support human life, if assisted with technology, maybe. But this is one or two planets out of >1000 exoplanets known, and they aren't even confirmed. Hell, even if we found ten thousand habitable planets, a hundred thousand, the universe would still be approximately 100% deadly to humans. Also note that humans can only live on the surface of planets, not in their interiors. 99.99%+ of the Earth is inhospitable to human life, what with its solid mass under thousands of atmospheres of pressure at thousands of degrees, its deep oceans that we have barely explored, and what little we've done only possible because of high technology, and don't forget the Earth's extremes of heat and cold.

 

Oh and don't forget the constant volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, storms, landslides, wildfires, and such that constantly destroy human life.

 

And don't forget the fact that before the modern era, with the arrival of modern medicine and the discovery of the Haber process to create nitrate fertilizer for farming, life was even more difficult with rampant disease and starvation.

 

Tuned? For us? You'd have to be insane to think so.

[ajaywilson]

These days we talk about Multiverse rather than Universe

[Village Idiot]

 

The Distance between the Earth and the Moon:

 

 

- If they were just a little closer, the Moon would crash into the Earth.

- If they were any further, the Moon would become lost in space.

 

Please look for another forte: Yours is not in science where "Faith" is just a five letter word. There is no such delicate balance required for retention of orbital trajectory. Decreased velocity would let the moon fall until consequential acceleration would bring it into sufficient velocity to support a new, lower orbit. Increased velocity would bring it farther away until such climbing would bring its velocity down from such extreme departure from the earth.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Heedless

[Aethelwulf]

These days we talk about Multiverse rather than Universe

 

Do we?

 

I know plenty scientists who don't. The idea to them is really unthinkable.

 

I certainly don't believe there are an infinite amount of universes.

[Aethelwulf]

Also note I said "there is only one planet known to us" that can support human life. There may be others. We don't know yet. We've found one or two that might be able to support human life, if assisted with technology, maybe. But this is one or two planets out of >1000 exoplanets known, and they aren't even confirmed. Hell, even if we found ten thousand habitable planets, a hundred thousand, the universe would still be approximately 100% deadly to humans. Also note that humans can only live on the surface of planets, not in their interiors. 99.99%+ of the Earth is inhospitable to human life, what with its solid mass under thousands of atmospheres of pressure at thousands of degrees, its deep oceans that we have barely explored, and what little we've done only possible because of high technology, and don't forget the Earth's extremes of heat and cold.

 

Oh and don't forget the constant volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, storms, landslides, wildfires, and such that constantly destroy human life.

 

And don't forget the fact that before the modern era, with the arrival of modern medicine and the discovery of the Haber process to create nitrate fertilizer for farming, life was even more difficult with rampant disease and starvation.

 

Tuned? For us? You'd have to be insane to think so.

 

 

It's highly likely that we are not the only life in this... infinitely vast cosmos.

[Moontanman]

The fine tuning in the universe

 

He Who created the seven heavens in layers. You will not find any flaw in the creation of the All-Merciful. Look again—do you see any gaps? Then look again and again. Your sight will return to you dazzled and exhausted! (Qur’an, 67:3-4)

 

He to Whom the kingdom of the heavens and the earth belongs. He does not have a son and He has no partner in the Kingdom. He created everything and determined it most exactly. (Qur’an, 25:2)

 

Materialist philosophy emerged with the claim that all the systems in nature and the universe were like machines that functioned on their own, that the flawless order and balance within them were the work of chance. However, today, the false nature of materialism and of Darwinism, its so-called scientific foundation, has been scientifically demonstrated. (See Harun Yahya, The Evolution Deceit, and Darwinism Refuted)

 

 

The scientific discoveries of the 20th century that followed swiftly, one after the other, in the fields of astrophysics and biology have proved that life and the universe were created. As the theses of Darwinism collapsed, the Big Bang theory has shown that the universe was created from nothing.

Discoveries have revealed that there is a great design and fine-tuning in the material world and this has categorically demonstrated the groundless nature of the claims of materialism.

 

Considering the conditions necessary for life, we see that only the Earth meets these particular conditions. For an environment suitable for life, there are innumerable conditions taking place simultaneously and unceasingly all around us. There are some hundred billion galaxies, each with-on average-a hundred billion stars. In all the galaxies, there are perhaps as many planets as stars.1 In the face of such overpowering numbers, one can better comprehend the significance of the formation of such an exceptional environment on the Earth.

 

 

From the force of the Big Bang explosion to the physical values of atoms, from the levels of the four basic forces to the chemical processes in the stars, from the type of light emitted by the Sun to the level of viscosity of water, from the distance of the Moon to the Earth to the level of gases in the atmosphere, from the Earth's distance from the Sun to its angle of tilt to its orbit, and from the speed at which the Earth revolves around its own axis to the functions of the oceans and mountains on the Earth: every single detail is ideally suited to our lives. Today, the world of science describes these features by means of the concepts of the "Anthropic Principle" and "Fine-Tuning." These concepts summarise the way that the universe is not an aimless, uncontrolled, chance collection of matter but that it has a purpose directed towards human life and has been designed with the greatest precision.

 

Attention is drawn in the above verses to the measure and harmony in Allah's creation. The word "taqdeer," meaning "to design, measure, create by measuring," is employed in Qur'anic verses such as Surat al-Furqan 2. The word "tibaaq," meaning "in harmony," is used in Surat al-Mulk 3 and Surah Nuh 15. Furthermore, Allah also reveals in Surat al-Mulk with the word "tafaawut," meaning "disagreement, violation, non-conformity, disorder, opposite," that those who seek disharmony will fail to find it.

 

The term "fine-tuning," which began to be used towards the end of the 20th century, represents this truth revealed in the verses. Over the last quarter-century or so, a great many scientists, intellectuals and writers have shown that the universe is not a collection of coincidences. On the contrary, it has an extraordinary design and order ideally suited to human life in its every detail. (See Harun Yahya, The Creation of the Universe and A Chain of Miracles) Many features in the universe clearly show that the universe has been specially designed to support life. The physicist Dr. Karl Giberson expresses this fact thus:

 

In the 1960s, some physicists observed that our universe appears to have been fine-tuned for the existence of human life. 2

 

The Speed of the Big Bang Explosion:

 

The balances established with the Big Bang, the instantaneous formation of the universe, are one of the proofs that the universe did not come into being by chance. According to the well-known Adelaide University professor of mathematical physics Paul Davies, if the rate of expansion that took place following the Big Bang had been just one in a billion billion parts different (1/1018), the universe could not have come into being. 3

 

The Four Forces:

 

All physical motion in the universe comes about thanks to the interaction and equilibrium of the four forces recognised by modern physics: gravity, electromagnetic force, strong nuclear force and weak nuclear force. These forces possess extraordinarily different values to one another.4

 

The Distances between Celestial Bodies:

 

The distribution of celestial bodies in space and the enormous spaces between them are essential to the existence of life on Earth. The distances between celestial bodies have been set out in a calculation compatible with a great many powerful universal forces in such a way as to support life on Earth.5

 

Gravity:

 

- If gravity were stronger, excessive ammonia and methane would collect in the Earth's atmosphere, which would have a most damaging effect on life.

- If it were weaker, the Earth's atmosphere would lose excessive quantities of water, making life impossible.

 

The Earth’s Distance from the Sun:

 

- If this were any greater, the planet would grow very cold, the water cycle in the atmosphere would be affected, and the planet would enter an ice-age.

- If the Earth were any closer to the Sun, plants would burn up, the water cycle in the Earth's atmosphere would be irreparably damaged, and life would become impossible.

 

 

The Thickness of the Earth’s Crust:

 

- If the crust were any thicker, then an excessive amount of oxygen would be transferred to it from the atmosphere.

- If it were any thinner, the resulting amount of volcanic activity would make life impossible.

 

The Speed at which the Earth Revolves:

 

- If this were any slower, the temperature difference between day and night would grow enormously.

- If it were any faster, then atmospheric winds would reach enormous speeds, and cyclones and storms would make life impossible.

 

The Earth’s Magnetic Field:

 

- If this were any more powerful, very strong electromagnetic storms would arise.

- If it were any weaker, then the Earth would lose its protection against the harmful particles given off by the Sun and known as solar winds. Both situations would make life impossible.

 

The Albedo Effect (The Fraction of Light Reflected by the Earth):

 

- If this were any greater, an ice-age would rapidly result.

- If it were any less, the greenhouse effect would lead to excessive warming. The Earth would first be flooded with the melting of the glaciers, and would then burn up.

 

The Proportion of Oxygen and Nitrogen in the Atmosphere:

 

- If this were any greater, vital functions would be adversely accelerated.

- If it were any less, vital functions would adversely slow down.

 

The Proportion of Carbon Dioxide and Water in the Atmosphere:

 

- If this were any greater, the atmosphere would overheat.

- If it were any less, the temperature of the atmosphere would fall.

 

The Thickness of the Ozone Layer:

 

- If this were any greater, the Earth's temperature would fall enormously.

- If it were any less, the Earth would overheat and be defenceless against the harmful ultraviolet rays emitted by the Sun.

 

Seismic Activity (Earthquakes):

 

- If this were any greater, there would be constant upheaval for living things.

- If it were any less, the nutrients at the sea bottom would fail to spread into the water. This would have a damaging effect on life in the seas and oceans and all living things on Earth.

 

The Earth’s Angle of Tilt:

 

The Earth has a 23 degree angle of inclination to its orbit. It is this inclination that gives rise to the seasons. If this angle were any greater or any less than it is now, the temperature difference between the seasons would reach extreme dimensions, with unbearably hot summers and bitterly cold winters.

 

The Size of the Sun:

 

A smaller star than the Sun would mean the Earth would freeze and a larger star would lead to its burning up.

 

The Attraction between the Earth and the Moon:

 

- If this were any greater, the powerful attraction of the Moon would have extremely serious effects on atmospheric conditions, the speed at which the Earth revolves around its own axis and on the ocean tides.

- If it were any less, this would lead to extreme climate changes.

 

The Distance between the Earth and the Moon:

 

 

- If they were just a little closer, the Moon would crash into the Earth.

- If they were any further, the Moon would become lost in space.

- If they were even a little closer, the Moon's effect on the Earth's tides would reach dangerous dimensions. Ocean waves would inundate low-lying areas. The friction emerging as a result of this would raise the temperature of the oceans and the sensitive temperature balance essential to life on

Earth would disappear.

 

- If they were even a little further away, the tides would decrease, leading the oceans to be less mobile. Immobile water would endanger life in the seas, and the level of the oxygen we breathe would be endangered.6

 

The Temperature of the Earth and Carbon-Based Life:

 

The existence of carbon, the basis of all life, depends on the temperature remaining within specific limits. Carbon is an essential substance for organic molecules such as amino-acid, nucleic acid and protein: These constitute the basis of life. For that reason, life can only be carbon-based. Given this, the existing temperature needs to be no lower than -20 degrees and no higher than 1200 Celsius (2480 F). These are just the temperature limits on Earth.

 

These are just a few of the exceedingly sensitive balances which are essential for life on Earth to have emerged and to survive. Yet even these are sufficient to definitively reveal that the Earth and the universe could not have come into being as the result of a number of consecutive coincidences. The concepts of "fine-tuning" and the "anthropic principle" that began to be employed in the 20th century are further evidence of Allah's creation. The harmony and proportion therein were described with magnificent accuracy fourteen centuries ago in the Qur'an.

(Harun Yahya article)

 

 

1- Carl Sagan, Cosmos, (Avenel, NJ: Wings Books: April 1983), 5-7.

2- Karl Giberson, "The Anthropic Principle," Journal of Interdisciplinary Studies 9 (1997). (emphasis added)

3- Paul Davies, Superforce: The Search for a Grand Unified Theory of Nature, 1984, 184.

4- Michael Denton, Nature's Destiny: How the Laws of Biology Reveal Purpose in the Universe, (New York: The Free Press, 1998), 12-13.

5- Michael Denton, Nature's Destiny: How the Laws of Biology Reveal Purpose in the Universe, (New York: The Free Press, 1998), 11.

6- "The Elemental Forces of the Universe;" http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/01-ma10.htm#Elemental Forces

 

Horse feathers, if things were different... things would be different... I suggest you go to the next lottery winner and tell them they can't have the money because winning is so unlikely it couldn't have happened...

 

The universe is not fine tuned for life, 99.9999% of the universe is totally unsuited for complex life, more of it is probably suited for bacteria type life but the assertion that if things were different we wouldn't here is just silly...

 

If we weren't here we wouldn't know it would we?

 

BTW, earth like planets are being discovered now and some of them are in the Goldilocks zone....

[belovelife]

Horse feathers, if things were different... things would be different... I suggest you go to the next lottery winner and tell them they can't have the money because winning is so unlikely it couldn't have happened...

 

The universe is not fine tuned for life, 99.9999% of the universe is totally unsuited for complex life, more of it is probably suited for bacteria type life but the assertion that if things were different we wouldn't here is just silly...

 

If we weren't here we wouldn't know it would we?

 

BTW, earth like planets are being discovered now and some of them are in the Goldilocks zone....

 

 

i disagree, fungus does not need light to grow, but it grows towards a light

chemical energy is enough

 

i think humanity has a very limited perspective of what life can be

 

since we only know what we experience

[Aethelwulf]

Let's be honest... this universe does actually seem quite tuned to the life we calculate. I think even just the enzymes required for requires odds for life is [math]10^{40,000}[/math] just to be by chance. (calculation by Fred Hoyle) -- which is quite a few magnitude more than the particles which are observable in this universe, which stands at about [math]10^{80}[/math]...

 

Take into consideration then, even below this and more fundamentally, the conditions our universe could have arose in. According to the postulates of quantum mechanics, this universe arose from an infinite amount of possibilities. Unless something was there to bring this ''chance'' condition about, think about the amount of states which could have came about. This universe did not just arise by chance, unless there was many universes, (ie. many maxima and minima) which exist around the potential state of our current vacuum.

 

Our vacuum to happen by chance, truly would be a miracle in the eye's of quantum mechanics. It would need to be fine tuned next to a complete random possibility... which makes our universe.... quite extraordinary.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Aethelwulf

[Aethelwulf]

In light of this, it seems there may indeed be some superintellect, that has guided creation.

 

It is not stupid to think this way, but rather quite logical. God hoewver, in what shape and form, is not some sentient being we often attribute life to being guided by a sentient cause... rather one that might lead to life in general.

[Aethelwulf]

Einstein believed in ''such a God'' as did Carl Sagan... in fact, I could quote him saying that a quantum God is unthinkable.

[Aethelwulf]

from wiki on Sagan

 

''Sagan wrote frequently about religion and the relationship between religion and science, expressing his skepticism about the conventional conceptualization of God as a sapient being. For example:

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."[44]

In another description of his view of God, Sagan emphatically writes:

"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."[45]''

[Moontanman]

i disagree, fungus does not need light to grow, but it grows towards a light

chemical energy is enough

 

Belovelife, in the simplest of terms, no, fungus does not just need chemical energy, it is not an autotroph, fungus can only live on other life or the remains there of...

 

i think humanity has a very limited perspective of what life can be

 

since we only know what we experience

 

this I agree with..

 

Let's be honest... this universe does actually seem quite tuned to the life we calculate. I think even just the enzymes required for requires odds for life is [math]10^{40,000}[/math] just to be by chance. (calculation by Fred Hoyle) -- which is quite a few magnitude more than the particles which are observable in this universe, which stands at about [math]10^{80}[/math]...

 

Take into consideration then, even below this and more fundamentally, the conditions our universe could have arose in. According to the postulates of quantum mechanics, this universe arose from an infinite amount of possibilities. Unless something was there to bring this ''chance'' condition about, think about the amount of states which could have came about. This universe did not just arise by chance, unless there was many universes, (ie. many maxima and minima) which exist around the potential state of our current vacuum.

 

Our vacuum to happen by chance, truly would be a miracle in the eye's of quantum mechanics. It would need to be fine tuned next to a complete random possibility... which makes our universe.... quite extraordinary.

 

Are we going there again Aethelwulf? There is simply no way you can assert this, we have no idea if this universe is the only way a universe can develop or not...

 

In light of this, it seems there may indeed be some superintellect, that has guided creation.

 

It is not stupid to think this way, but rather quite logical. God hoewver, in what shape and form, is not some sentient being we often attribute life to being guided by a sentient cause... rather one that might lead to life in general.

 

Again no, as far as we know the universe might be left behind by a vast being that eats dark matter and excrete universes. You cannot make such an assertion and back it up and you know it.

 

Einstein believed in ''such a God'' as did Carl Sagan... in fact, I could quote him saying that a quantum God is unthinkable.

 

Appeal from authority Aethelwulf... really?

 

from wiki on Sagan

 

''Sagan wrote frequently about religion and the relationship between religion and science, expressing his skepticism about the conventional conceptualization of God as a sapient being. For example:

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."[44]

In another description of his view of God, Sagan emphatically writes:

"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."[45]''

 

 

Again, how can you support this in any way other than appeal to authority?

[Aethelwulf]

''Are we going there again Aethelwulf?''

 

Yea, why not :)

 

''There is simply no way you can assert this, we have no idea if this universe is the only way a universe can develop or not... ''

 

Well that's simply not true.

 

Many scientists have calculated and also realize that if you change any number of physical constants in the universe, the universe would be drastically different than it is today.

 

''Again no, as far as we know the universe might be left behind by a vast being that eats dark matter and excrete universes. You cannot make such an assertion and back it up and you know it.''

 

I just don't think it is unreasonable to think there is a type of intellect behind everything. It does not even need to be sentient - just a type of information which we may come to call God. Certainly in my view, I believe God to be a completely natural manifestation of the universe, perhaps the universe itself.

 

''Appeal from authority Aethelwulf... really? ''

 

But why not though? The topic of God is not an easy one for even the best of people to digest and I certainly don't want to come across as if I have no brain because I simply believe it is possible. Naming Einstein and Carl just let's the audience know, even the bosses of our sciences believed it.