2012 Conspiracy theories

[CraigD]

All of this is very speculative, but from my understanding a gravity wave is not like other waves.

This is my understanding, also. Gravitational waves (conventionally, this term is preferred over “gravity wave”, because this is an older term used to describe waves resulting from the force of gravity on media of different densities – eg: waves on the surface of a body of water) are a prediction of General Relativity.

It would not be felt on the physical medium but on the underlying quantum level, which you should well know is not divided.

As predicted by GR, Gwaves (a catchier term than the two-word one :eek2:) should be detectable in a physical medium. Current and planned detectors are all macroscopic physical devices – the ”gravitational wave detector” section of the above wikipedia link gives a good overview, with links to specific detectors.

 

No device has yet directly detected a Gwave. However, indirect evidence of their existence is strong. Like other waves, such as ocean waves, Gwaves can transmit energy to – that is, do work in - physical systems. This energy must come from a physical source. The best studied Gwave sources are pulsars in binary star systems. In these cases, the kinetic energy of the co-orbiting stars are the energy source of Gwaves. As this energy is converted into Gwaves, their speed decreases, and their orbital period decreases. This is measurable with present-day instruments, and has been measured and found to agree with GR’s predictions. Such measurements and analysis made from 1974 to 1979 PSR B1913+16 won the 1993 Physics Nobel Prize.

 

I’m looking forward to the expected 2018+ launch of LISA. Though a ground-based Gwave detector may succeed before then, LISA, with a 5 million km baseline, should for sure (barring any of the many mishaps spacecraft can have).

Gravity is not one of these force’s we understand very well …

This is, I think, very true, and both an overstatement and an understatement.

… but as the article postulates the information medium could be one of profound implication. A master organizing wave that moves the fabric of space/time.

We should, I think, be carefully mindful of the article’s source, montalk. While apparently (I’ve never met him, but know a few similar-seeming folk) a wild and fun guy, he himself labels his writing “fringe knowledge”, so it’s safe, I think, to consider the science-y part of it “fringe science”.

[Thunderbird]

What do you mean by this TB?

 

Perhaps it would be best to start a new thread on this topic as it doesn't have any correlation with the current thread topic.

 

 

Sure it does, I'm referring to the article I posted earlier on The Physics of 2012

[Thunderbird]

.We should, I think, be carefully mindful of the article’s source, montalk. While apparently (I’ve never met him, but know a few similar-seeming folk) a wild and fun guy, he himself labels his writing “fringe knowledge”, so it’s safe, I think, to consider the science-y part of it “fringe science”.

 

Sure, but this concept of sudden shifts of organization on a galactic scale is intriguing, and come from many sources that are not necessarily fringe science.

Also I find the Mayan calendar fascinating, which, from what I gather is more accurate than ours, Maybe they calculated cycles we are just rediscovering.

[modest]

Also I find the Mayan calendar fascinating, which, from what I gather is more accurate than ours,

 

This is said and repeated so often it seems like it has to be true. At the same time - how could it be?

 

Any calendar that uses whole number days of earth or lunar rotation without periodic corrections is going to be incorrect in tracking seasons, years, etc. This is the case with the Mayan calendar. Their year was/is 365 days long with no leap-years. The seasons shifted over time. There is no indication they corrected for this.

 

In fact, there is evidence they didn’t understand they needed to correct for it when they created the calendar. The first day of a month is named after the season it should reside in. This would work in the Mayan calendar for only so long until seasons are too shifted. The names of the months would then be counter to the actual season in which they reside. This is clear evidence of a misunderstanding of the length of a year at least when the calendar was created. How does that represent accuracy?

 

Or, are we saying that Mayan astronomy was accurate? Maybe that’s true - there is good evidence they were adept at tracking Venus. But, who wasn’t?

 

Greek, Babylonian, Indian, Roman, and other civilizations were just as good, if not better, in their astronomical predictions hundreds of years earlier than the Mayans.

 

In fact, in the 12th century in India, Bhaskara calculated the length of earth’s year accurately to 9 decimal places. Yet we are impressed with the Mayan calendar - I don’t get it.

 

I really don’t understand.

 

-modest

[Thunderbird]

What I find interesting is the Mayan culture were not only advanced in the acute timing of these seasonal cycles but these advancements were accomplished by a completely separate civilization.

The big question here is not how accurate it is, but could they have possibly discovered a galactic cycle.

 

 

Mayan Calendar

 

When it came to mathematics, time and calendars, the Maya were geniuses. Believing that time repeated itself in cycles, they devised two calendars, one ritualistic, which was used for religious celebrations and astrological predictions, and the other a solar calendar. Both calendars were based on the calculation that a year had a little more than 365 days, a more precise system than the Gregorian calendar. Following the movement of the sun, moon and stars with such accuracy, the Maya were able to predict such mystifying phenomena as eclipses and the Spring and Autumn equinoxes.

 

The Maya kept time with a combination of several cycles that meshed together to mark the movement of the sun, moon and Venus. Their ritual calendar, known as the Tzolkin, was composed of 260 days. It pairs the numbers from 1 through 13 with a sequence of 20 day-names. It works something like our days of the week pairing with the numbers of the month. Thus you might have 1-Imix (similar to Sunday the 1st) followed by 2-Ik (just as you would have Monday the 2nd). When you get to 13-Ben, the next day would start the numbers over again, thus 1-Ix, 2-Men etc. It will take 260 days before the cycle gets back to 1-Imix again (13 x 20).

 

The 20 day-names, meaning and symbol can vary in different Maya languages. Also, each day can be represented with more elaborate glyphs known as "Head Variants" - a formal writing system which can be loosely compared to our script alphabet versus our print alphabet. The Tzolkin calendar was meshed with a 365-day solar cycle called the "Haab". The calendar consisted of 18 months with 20 days (numbered 0-19) and a short "month" of only 5 days that was called the Wayeb and was considered to be a dangerous time. It took 52 years for the Tzolkin and Haab calendars to move through a complete cycle.

 

These are the Mayan words for periods of time:

 

 

Day = Kin (keen)

Month of 20 days = Uinal (wee nal)

Year of 360 days = Tun (toon)

20 Tuns = K'atun (k' ah toon)

20 K'atuns = Baktun (bock toon)

 

If you would like to convert a date to the Maya calendar, go to the Rabbit on the Moon Web site at http://www.halfmoon.org

 

Maya Astronomy

 

The Maya were quite accomplished astronomers. Their primary interest, in contrast to "western" astronomers, were Zenial Passages when the Sun crossed over the Maya latitudes. On an annual basis the sun travels to its summer solstice point, or the latitude of 23-1/3 degrees north.

 

Most of the Maya cities were located south of this latitude, meaning that they could observe the sun directly overhead during the time that the sun was passing over their latitude. This happened twice a year, evenly spaced around the day of solstice.

 

The Maya could easily determine these dates, because at local noon, they cast no shadow. Zenial passage observations are possible only in the Tropics and were quite unknown to the Spanish conquistadors who descended upon the Yucatan peninsula in the 16th century. The Maya had a god to represented this position of the Sun called the Diving God.

 

End of the Mayan Great Cycle: December 21st, 2012 A.D.

Scholars today are recognizing that Mayan mythology is intimately related to the celestial movements of stars, the Milky Way and certain constellations. The sources of Mayan mythology are found in the sky, and the timetable of Creation Day is pinpointed by the end date of the Mayan Great Cycle. My research into the nature of this date reveals that a rare celestial alignment culminates on it. Generally speaking, what occurs is an alignment between the galactic and solar planes. Specifically, the winter solstice sun will conjunct the Milky Way, which is the edge of our spinning galaxy as viewed from earth. Furthermore, the place where the sun meets the Milky Way is where the "dark-rift" in the Milky Way is - a black ridge along the Milky Way caused by interstellar dust clouds

[modest]

What I find interesting is the Mayan culture were not only advanced in the acute timing of these seasonal cycles but these advancements were accomplished by a completely separate civilization.

The big question here is not how accurate it is, but could they have possibly discovered a galactic cycle.

 

There is no evidence that the Maya knew anything about the galactic cycle. The Mayan calendar does not coincide with any galactic period.

 

As far as the material you quoted:

 

they devised two calendars, one ritualistic, which was used for religious celebrations and astrological predictions, and the other a solar calendar.

 

This is not true. The Maya had many more than 2 calendars. The Tzolk'in was perhaps more religious, however the Venus calendar, long-count calendar, and others were also clearly rooted in their religious beliefs.

Both calendars were based on the calculation that a year had a little more than 365 days, a more precise system than the Gregorian calendar.

 

This is a complete falsehood. No Mayan calendar had any fraction of days. There is no way of combining the calendars in an interlocking way to achieve a fraction of days over any period of time. The two calendars referenced in the quote above have 260 and 365 days with no mechanism for leap days over any period. Because of this the Mayan calendar was very much less accurate than either the Gregorian or Julian calendar for keeping track of seasons (or any yearly events).

 

Following the movement of the sun, moon and stars with such accuracy, the Maya were able to predict such mystifying phenomena as eclipses

 

Untrue / unproven

 

This myth got started from the Dresden Codex which has in it lunar eclipses recored. All this means is that they recored such things when they happened. There is no record of a method of predicting lunar eclipses. Based on their calendar there is no reason to assume they had to ability to make such predictions.

 

Other ancient cultures certainly were able to predict lunar (and rarely solar) eclipses. The Chinese were adept at predicting both by 200 AD.

 

The Maya were quite accomplished astronomers. Their primary interest, in contrast to "western" astronomers, were Zenial Passages when the Sun crossed over the Maya latitudes. On an annual basis the sun travels to its summer solstice point, or the latitude of 23-1/3 degrees north. The Maya could easily determine these dates, because at local noon, they cast no shadow. Zenial passage observations are possible only in the Tropics and were quite unknown to the Spanish conquistadors who descended upon the Yucatan peninsula in the 16th century. The Maya had a god to represented this position of the Sun called the Diving God.

 

Rubbish. Any Spanish conquistadors, any naval captain of that time knew exactly how high the sun would be at noon at different latitudes any day of the year. ***That's how they navigated***

 

My research into the nature of this date reveals that a rare celestial alignment culminates on it. Generally speaking, what occurs is an alignment between the galactic and solar planes.

 

As turtle and I proved in this thread - this is not in any way true.

[Thunderbird]

This is all conjecture of course, I assumed this area was set aside for that.

But I do believe however, these ancient cultures do have insights to contribute, and should not be dismissed out of hand.

[Buffy]

This is all conjecture of course, I assumed this area was set aside for that.

Sure its "set aside for that," but primarily to keep these away from scientific discussions that actually apply logic to so-called "evidence."

 

You should not expect that if you create threads in Strange Claims that their "safe" from being refuted: this is a *science* website ya know, and one of the main things it contributes is a source for why such silliness is absurd and should be dismissed.

 

Conversely,

But I do believe however, these ancient cultures do have insights to contribute, and should not be dismissed out of hand.

...this is an excellent example of the kind of argument used to support such silly theories: the notion that by refuting a particular theory that science attacks and dismisses all theories from the same source is beneath contempt.

 

We don't reject Newton because he happened to be fond of alchemy.... :)

 

Gaze no more in the bitter glass. The demons, with their subtle guile, lift up before us when they pass, or only gaze a little while, :evil:

Buffy

[Thunderbird]

Sure its "set aside for that," but primarily to keep these away from scientific discussions that actually apply logic to so-called "evidence."

 

You should not expect that if you create threads in Strange Claims that their "safe" from being refuted.

Buffy

 

I did not start this thread, and I am only contributing my veiw points not scientific evidence. So what's is the problem?

 

Try to be coherent to what I have said, instead of the usual innuendo.

[Buffy]

I did not start this thread, and I am only contributing my veiw points not scientific evidence. So what's is the problem?

Oh you're quite welcome to do that, but your post did seem to express surprise at the response.

 

I now see that you're under the misapprehension that the refutation you encountered above was intended to be a dismissal of all Mayan knowledge, and you're quite clearly justified in making that assumption and scolding Modest for doing so "out of hand," so I apologize.

 

For interim to our studies shall relate in high-born words the worth of many a knight, from tawny Spain lost in the world's debate, :)

Buffy

[DougF]

Thunderbird

Also I find the Mayan calendar fascinating' date=' which, from what I gather is more accurate than ours,[/quote']

I can see why you said this from the way this is portrayed in this and other articles.

 

The Maya calendar in its final form probably dates from about the 1st century B.C. Although highly complex' date=' it was the most accurate known to humans [/b']until the introduction of the Gregorian calendar.

Mayan Calendar

[Thunderbird]

I can see why you said this from the way this is portrayed in this and other articles.

 

 

Mayan Calendar

 

Looks like I gathered information From the wrong web source, but I am still fascinated by the possibility of knowledge that may have been lost forever, or still may be rediscovered.

 

 

The Mayan Calendar

History of Mathematics

 

http://http://www.math.sfu.ca/histmath/calendars/mayan.html

 

 

It has been suggested that certain other dates, called determinants, indicate with a remarkable degree of accuracy how far the 365-day year had diverged from the solar year since the beginning of the Long Count, but this hypothesis is questioned by some scholars. The identification of certain architectural assemblages as observatories of solstices and equinoxes is equally difficult to substantiate. So far, it has not been demonstrated how the Maya reckoned the seasons of their agricultural cycle or whether they observed the tropical or the sidereal year.

Unfortunately, the Spanish conquest marked the end of the Mayan civilization. Greed and misery from the Conquistadors brought them down. The whole community was blanked-out over night leaving no trace. Now we will never be able to learn with precision all the advance knowledge the Mayan had.

[freeztar]

You might be interested in this TB. It's a presentation I made for my Astronomy and Cosmology course.

 

http://freeztar.20m.com/astro.html

 

Both the Venus cycle recorded by the Mayans and the Tzolkin calendar are more evenly divisible by the moon's synodic period than the modern Gregorian calendar we use. It was interesting to see that the closest whole number match, indicating preciseness, is eight solar years and five Venus cycles, divided by the moon's synodic period. This is important to pay attention to because it could let us see into the minds of the ancient Maya calendar makers. The Maya probably created such an elaborate calendar to try to find order in the cosmos. In mathematical terms, this would mean finding the correlation between cycles of multiple heavenly bodies (i.e. 5 Venus years = 8 solar years = 99 moon cycles). For all practical purposes, 98.9 would be close enough to 99 for the Maya. Is this evidence of an intricate association between observed cycles of the three brightest heavenly bodies? It could just be math games. Although, if one believes the myth of the Mayan kings' divine rights through the heavens, the Venus/Moon connection becomes interesting. A Mayan astronomer might have recognized that the moon is in just about the same phase at each Venus cycle renewal. This predicted knowledge could have made the king look bound to the sky in the eyes of observing commoners. Or perhaps it was a need to find a pattern in nature, a way to find order. For after all, order is the base goal of any calendar.

[BLUE ELECTRIC MONKEY]

For anyone interested in what's going on with this 2012 obsessions and theories and conspiracy theories, check out:

 

http://hypography.com/forums/strange-claims-forum/16290-all-the-truth-about-2012-a.html

 

A short summary:

 

 

1. Numbers affect people.

2. 9/11 combos appear in so many dates of destruction and in more than one calender, and in many emergency phone numbers.

3. After 2012 you get much less such combos in the dates

4. All the 2012 obsession can be attributed to it.

5. No natural disasters are involved, numbers affect people, not nature.

6. in 2000-2012, dates are especially "charming", causing so much fuss about date and numbers. Since 2013, dates will be less charming (less repetitions) and less dangerous (less 9/11 combos), resulting in a less-effect-of-time-on-us.

7. Fears about the end of the world, are actually fears about the end of the year. Christ's birthday is in the end of the year, and he will come at the end of the world. Jewish formal Judgment-day, is the Hebrew-New-Year (after the year-calender is over), and also when the Mayan calender is over, like when a year-calender is over, some people are anxious about it.

8. All dates-number obsessions, however artificial, have a natural source - counting with 10 fingers.

 

 

2012:

I don't believe there's anymore much to it than numbers affecting people, NOT NATURE.

Calenders are not designed in any way that can predict natural disasters. They are constructed in a way that corresponds to the natural cycle of nature and mankind to some extant with seasons and weekends and other mainly sun & moon related cycles.

They are not constructed in a way that can predict, or cause, a natural disaster, but in a way that can make some people feel some things, sometimes.

[hiddenlodge]

assuming that the "wise ones" for example the lightwokers who are currently living into an illusion are right about what is going to happen on that year "shift in consciousness" you will be doomed for another millennium how so ?

scientifically speaking the alignment which is taking place is the opposite of the apple which felt from that tree, Newton why did you pick it up ? once he ate it wasn't it enough you had to be curious in fulfilling the motivation of mankind. First clean up your mess and be patient for don't take nirvana for granted once you get in you won't get out unless..., this is the blackhole's theory

2012 is just a year like any other years nothing special nothing worse

 

? who am I to speak in his name

ma vengence est fraichement sortie du congelateur

[daniel123]

Okay , this is the most convincing one ive found. 2012 a meteorite called nibiru should hit earth with a 0.000025 chance or something causing earth to reverse its cycle , causing hurricanes , tidal waves , floods , south and north pole would melt , those would also cause wars,poverty so the outcome would be total chaos and causing the end of the world.

[Alpine]

Okay , this is the most convincing one ive found. 2012 a meteorite called nibiru should hit earth with a 0.000025 chance or something causing earth to reverse its cycle , causing hurricanes , tidal waves , floods , south and north pole would melt , those would also cause wars,poverty so the outcome would be total chaos and causing the end of the world.

 

How exactly would that cause war? Besides, if the poles melt then most of the coastal cities would be like Atlantis.