Schrödinger's Cat

[DAK]

<Each and every one of us is schroedinger's cat...we are observers affecting the experiment. In fact..we ARE the experiment...>

 

Perhaps Sheldrake's "Morphic Fields" idea may be a clue. The quantum level {boarder between the manifest and unmanifest} would organize with a catalyst {observer, intention, etc} "when conditions allow" as Dr. David Hawkins would say in "EYE OF THE I". It would make perfect sense that the manifest {like solid ice} would be more 'organized' and linear {acceptable to Einstein )} under certain conditions and yet be fluid {water} at the quantum level and etheric 'on the other side' {used just for something to describe the next condition}.

 

As the Toaists mystics noted, all can be seen in nature... the laws repeat themselves everywhere, your body, mind, space, etc.

 

So the Newtonians think everything is ice... Quantum mechanics is noting that touching the ice {melts it, and} somehow changes things... the mystic sees the world as humidity which condenses or/and hardens {manifests} when conditions are right.

 

DAK

[Beatnik307]

It's true that the cat itself would ruin the experiment, it would know whether it is alive or dead, so, even before we look in the box, the outcome would have been already decided.

[Qfwfq]

This according to the old, out-dated conscious observer point of view, Beatnik.

 

Even according to this, however, we have the same problem, only with a touch less emotional impact, if we change the experiment to have something macrosopic but unconscious instead of the cat, that can easily be tipped from one state to another by the detector output. It could be some mechanism with a little spring and some kind of trigger or something. Imagine something like an old fashioned alarm clock's ringer, that makes no noise or vibration. Will it be in a superposition, until we open the box and look at it?

[Zohaar818]

This according to the old, out-dated conscious observer point of view, Beatnik.

 

Even according to this, however, we have the same problem, only with a touch less emotional impact, if we change the experiment to have something macrosopic but unconscious instead of the cat, that can easily be tipped from one state to another by the detector output. It could be some mechanism with a little spring and some kind of trigger or something. Imagine something like an old fashioned alarm clock's ringer, that makes no noise or vibration. Will it be in a superposition, until we open the box and look at it?

 

Which begs the question ; how complex does an organism have to be in order to have an awareness of 'self' ? Would an amoeba not know its 'self' , it's borders in the material plane?

A dust mite? Is it only creatures with a neural cortex?

And if we rigged the experiment so that instead of a cat it's a drop of wate ror a lump of cheese that either gets microwaved or not..then what? Wouln't it then depend on an 'observer' to open the box and check the contents?

Is the water /cheese unaffected until or unless the box is open?

Personally i hold to the ZPF theory in which all things are bound by a matrix within a hologram [and its an electric universe/multiverse] the parameters of which [and cycles] we are only now getting a grasp of.

In ZPF theory. the observer not only influences the experiment, or even part of the experiment...the observer IS the experiment. Buddhists and taoists should not have a problem with that, methinx. It's mostly westerners, in my experience, who seem to have an issue with it.

 

-Zohaar

[Qfwfq]

Spring mechanism... lump of cheese... whatever you will.

 

What does the ZPF stand for? I have no problem with that, conceptually, but I tend to think the cat is either dead or alive before the box is opened, and not because it is conscious. I think the same about the lump of cheese.

 

The point is, from the transitions between eigenstates of single atoms, through the detector, on to the lump of cheese and then to the chap that opens the box to see if it's cooked, how far can you carry a|A> + b|B> and why?

[Zohaar818]

Spring mechanism... lump of cheese... whatever you will.

 

What does the ZPF stand for??

 

It stands for Zero Point Field. It pervades everything, even the room you are in ,right now as you read this.

The Indian precultures & mystics mention something similar..and the modern Indian newspapers frequently publish comparison articles between physics and the mystic wisdom of their ancients as proof things they hold sacred are being proved scientifically valid..much unlike the pattern of the Abrahamic cults who seem to take a different view altogether of the validity of science versus their peculair theologies..

In a recent publication I read that according to their scientists [and in harmony with many UFO-ologists, who again enjoy an altogether more respected status in the world's most populous democracy than they do in the world's greatest super-power]] the UFO/ET's are able to go into a higher dimension, outside of time, or out of phase with us in order to travel..that they come from a universe that conforms to the rules of spatial physics..and do not interfere in this world of material quantum physics because to do so would upset the spatial correlations and time correlations between our alternate/parallel 'universe' and may end up rendering them incapable of finding their way home...

If you wish I will post the link....

Thing is to travel in and out of dimensions would mean finding a gate from one dimension to another.and the only way [for me] to imagine the physics involved is to believe that the answer lies in the ZPF.

It pervades all dimensions, and is the one constant that both universes must share despite their wildly differing 'rules'.

BTW..this whole idea of hyper-spatial geometry governing the rules of a universe [or two] being outside of the rules of our material universe could be the key to understanding verses in our own western [Abrahamic] holy texts when patriarchs and prophets were taken up into a craft of some sort whose inner dimensions seemed bigger than the outer dimensions...seemingly as big as cities...

But I digress..the point was Shroedinger's cat and Heisneberg'[s theory, put forth by Bohr and rebutted by Einstein with the comment 'God does not play dice'.

Well, of course not..why would God play dice in his own casino, Him being the owner and all...?

 

-Zohaar

[Qfwfq]

I guess you mean the Vedic culture? I've heard about that, yeah, once I even attended an evening meeting at a Hare Krishna community where the guy was talking about it.

 

I'm not sure how the ZPF would clarify the matter under discussion.

 

Well, of course not..why would God play dice in his own casino, Him being the owner and all...?

Of course!!! Concerning the Copenhagen interpretation that Einstein so much disagreed with, God is the only one that doesn't play dice!

[Zohaar818]

I guess you mean the Vedic culture? I've heard about that, yeah, once I even attended an evening meeting at a Hare Krishna community where the guy was talking about it.

 

I'm not sure how the ZPF would clarify the matter under discussion.

 

Of course!!! Concerning the Copenhagen interpretation that Einstein so much disagreed with, God is the only one that doesn't play dice!

 

 

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/3117.asp

This is the link to the India daily news article about UFO's and their ability to travel in and out of dimensions...

Again, in order for such travel to take place, despite the shift in dimensional axis, or time/space phasing..there would have to be a common medium..a constant that worked in both [all?] dimensions, the properties of which would have to be understood and manipulated in such a way as to make the jump possible. There has to be some net or matrix within which they could still remain 'embodied' or have their electrons held together in a field..wouldn't you think? And there would have to be an energy source that could be utilized in both dimensions...that energy source, i believe, is to be found in the ZPF..as well as the key to manipulating interdimensional travel.

Call it an educated guess with gnostic roots.

 

-Zohaar

[Qfwfq]

I guess I'm insufficiently gnoscent on these topics. Do you think it's maybe them that determine which of the eigenvalues should realize, every time something interacts with something else? That would solve the problems of local causality.

[mojassty]

The Indian precultures & mystics mention something similar..and the modern Indian newspapers frequently publish comparison articles between physics and the mystic wisdom of their ancients as proof things they hold sacred are being proved scientifically valid..much unlike the pattern of the Abrahamic cults who seem to take a different view altogether of the validity of science versus their peculair theologies.

 

Has anyone read "The Dancing Wu-Li Masters" by Gary Zukav? It's a bit dated now, but it gives a good introduction to quantum mechanics in light of Eastern mystic philosophy. One of my favorite physics books :rant:

 

Here's a complication about schrodinger's cat that I don't think anyone has brought up yet: To the cat, it 'knows' it's dead or alive as soon as the mechanism is triggered. To the sadistic observer outside the box, the odds are still 50/50 as to whether or not the cat was killed. The observer opens up the box, and one of the possibilities becomes reality... for him. What about his assistant, who hasn't looked in the box yet? For him, the wave probability function still exists. Even after he looks in the box, what about their wives? What about their friends and families? What about all the people who don't even know about the cat? Will everyone in the Universe have to know the final outcome of the experiment in order for the probability function to collapse once and for all?

 

Dude, :rant: you're freakin' me out.

[Zohaar818]

Has anyone read "The Dancing Wu-Li Masters" by Gary Zukav? It's a bit dated now, but it gives a good introduction to quantum mechanics in light of Eastern mystic philosophy. One of my favorite physics books :rant:

 

Here's a complication about schrodinger's cat that I don't think anyone has brought up yet: To the cat, it 'knows' it's dead or alive as soon as the mechanism is triggered. To the sadistic observer outside the box, the odds are still 50/50 as to whether or not the cat was killed. The observer opens up the box, and one of the possibilities becomes reality... for him. What about his assistant, who hasn't looked in the box yet? For him, the wave probability function still exists. Even after he looks in the box, what about their wives? What about their friends and families? What about all the people who don't even know about the cat? Will everyone in the Universe have to know the final outcome of the experiment in order for the probability function to collapse once and for all?

 

Dude, :rant: you're freakin' me out.

 

GREAT POST!!! You made my Sunday. Thanx...

-Zohaar

[Little Bang]

Nick Herbert's multiverse theory covers all the bases for Shrodinger's cat.

[mojassty]

I might not be familiar with that theory. Is that the same as the Many World's Theory, where the Universe splits into two parallel ones, one where the cat dies and one where the cat lives?

[Little Bang]

Yes it is, if your walking down a street looking for some place, you come to an intersection and have to decide which way to go, straight, left, or right. This create three new universes.

[Qfwfq]

So, you're in a coherent linear superposition when you go through the intersection?

[Little Bang]

I have no idea what a coherent linear superposition is, was, or will be.

[mojassty]

Yes it is, if your walking down a street looking for some place, you come to an intersection and have to decide which way to go, straight, left, or right. This create three new universes.

 

Using macroscopic examples of the mulitverse theory always disturb me a bit because they seem to conflict with our concept of free will. I mean, if you have to decide something, but you are destined to choose every option anyway, there really is no decision. Of course, if not all the options are equal, they wouldn't all have to occur. In your example above, for instance, a person with a particular destination in mind would turn in the direction that would lead to the shortest route.

 

Whether new Universes are created on the quantum level, I really don't know. It's too bad there isn't any way to test the theory.