Cause of aging

[martillo]

I need comments from people in this forum with deeper knowledge in biology about something posted in the "Universe Physics System Flaw" thread in the Theology Forum:

 

From other Forum:

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Second, as others have pointed out, mutations generated by radiation have likely been partly responsible for evolution. If you argue that these are bad, are you also arguing that evolution is bad?

 

 

No, evolution is not bad, is natural and necessary. I think in two kinds of evolution: "horizontal evolution" and "vertical evolution". To survive under changing enviromental conditions "horizontal evolution" happens, to develop complex beings starting from simple ones "vertical evolution" happens.

Of course the harmfull radiation of "too big photons" had a big impact in the evolution of all the beings in our World and with the Darwininan "natural selection" mechanism taking place but I believe that not only that mechanism was and is present. Actually the two kinds of evolutions would happen anyway in the abscence of the "too big photons" for life to be developed in dynamical Worlds.

 

 

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Thirdly, you are quite honest in stating you believe this hypothesis based on faith not facts. What observations/studies/research might be made to find facts that would support your belief?

 

 

Thank you for asking a good question and I will show you something really good to think about.

 

The central point is that too energetic photons (with energies above that of the deep blue color of light) can break organic molecules particularly those that compose living beings organisms what can cause undesirable mutations, all types of cancer, aging and death. Note that I subtly include aging. Yes I'm considering that aging actually happens just due to the "too big photons" present. I mean if they would not exist "natural aging" would not exist and death would be rare (may be by accidents only) and rare and very special would be the borning of a new being in the World (not like now that for example womans came pregnant even don't wanting to).

Yes I'm talking about possible "ethernal youth" but not with some miraculous "saint grial" or "source of youth". I'm talking about a change in the Physics of the Universe. I'm talking about a totally different kind of existence and life.

Now coming back to your question: "What observations/studies/research might be made to find facts that would support your belief?"

The fact that too energetic photons do break organic molecules is already known and we can easily find information on the web just searching for ultra-violet or even more energetic radiation effects. It is known that they can even produce DNA mutations. May be further studies are needed to realize that many other essential molecules of cells are affected by ultra-violet radiation causing "cell deterioration" (I mean malfunction). I have already heard on TV that one of the causes of aging being considered by some scientists is that DNA "deteriorate" through time while cells reproduce and I follow this line of reasoning but going further and looking for a possible cause of that deterioration. I consider that the presence of the "too big photons" is the real cause. But not only DNA deterioration in cells' reproduction is the cause of aging. The too energetic photons also affect directly many parts of the cells causing their malfunction.

The other line of research I think would be needed is to verify that too energetic photons (above deep blue color) are produced spontaneously by any atom (organisms' atoms and environment's atoms) under normal conditions without any external source of them (in the abscenece of external radiation). I mean even in a submarine under thje deep sea we would find those photons (may be just as some "background radiation noise").

Unfortunatelly what cannot be verified experimentally is how life could be in the abscence of the too energetic photons. Wecannot construct a lab where they would not be present because as I say they can come from any environment and from inside any organism.

I think that just logic and some imagination can do the rest.

 

Thank for your important questions.

Please consider on thing: I'm not infallible (by the way I make mistakes everyday...) and adjustments could be necessary on what I think, say and write.

 

You know religions state The Universe and Nature is perfect created by a perfect "God" and that we are guilty of everything wrong happening to us. Current Science someway agrees with this point of view saying the Universe, Nature and the Physics laws are perfect the way they are.

I take a more positive and productive position thinking that the Universe could not be perfect, life could not be perfect this way and that something could be done to change everything just working and researching in the right direction.

We humans cannot change the Physics Laws but "Primordial Intelligences" that could be called "Gods" could. For Science to have a right approach it must not discard the intervention of some kind of "superior intelligences" in the Universe particularly capable of make changes in the Physics Laws.

[CraigD]

Yes I'm considering that aging actually happens just due to the "too big photons" present. I mean if they would not exist "natural aging" would not exist and death would be rare (may be by accidents only) and rare and very special would be the borning of a new being in the World

While it’s true that ultraviolet and higher energy photons contribute to age-related disease, there are many other biologically know causes of aging, some of which don’t involve damage to DNA or tissues by light or other external stresses at all. For example, the DNA of many cells becomes slightly shorter with each cell division due to loss of their telomeres, until eventually, the cell loses the ability to divide, and the tissue containing it becomes senile. There are many other causes of aging, some known, and many more presumably unknown.

 

Consequently, no single, simple anti-aging therapeutic approach appears to be feasible, because many different causes must be addressed. In addition, some biological mechanism that cause cell senility, which leads to aging, and ultimately, death, also serve vital purposes that prevent disease and death. The above mentioned telomere shortening, for example, provides a mechanism that prevents some cells with damaged or infected DNA from reproducing aggressively to become cancers.

 

It’s also necessary to point out that, despite an long-standing fringe-science literature claiming the contrary (eg: Tompkin’s and Bird’s 1973 The Secret Life of Plants), there is no credible scientific evidence that UV and higher energy photons can, as Martillo claims

… come from any environment and from inside any organism.

Although high energy photons and other particles can come from substances found in plant and animal tissues, such as minute quantities of radioisotopes ingested in air, water, and food, they are not produced by biological metabolism, so it’s not impractical to isolate a living organism from effectively all high-energy radiation. Doing so, however, will not affect the many other aging mechanism the organism has – it will not make it immortal.

 

Another important point, found in most good biology overview textbooks and websites, is that not all organisms do age. In general, all bacteria colonies, and even some large plants and animals with differentiated tissues, are biologically immortal. Humans, and animals biologically similar to us, are just not among these species. (For more information, see the wikipedia section “biologically immortal species”. This article also summarizes and provides references to theories about why aging in non-immortal species is biologically useful)

[HydrogenBond]

From a dispassionate point of view, aging is necessary for biological and social evolution, even if I subjectively would like to live forever. It is harder for continuous change and progress unless life ages and expires. The old school are like the largest trees in the forest, blocking the sun and monopolizing the nutrients on the forest floor. This makes it harder for new growth.

 

Picture a forest composed of trees that never die. Whatever large trees so happen to be there, when this magic immortality spell appears, will prevent the forest floor from reaching its full potential. As time goes, the expanding canopy will continue to close off the forest floor, until the only things that can grow on the floor will have to do so in only dim light. There is no means for evolution in the tall trees. Even if they breed, the light hungry seeds die on the forest floor.

 

The utopian image of biological immortality works under the assumption one will be among the tall trees. But picture, if you are a little seedling, who also lives forever, but there is no way to rise any higher in the tall forest. Under those conditions, it may better, if those tall trees were not there. This rebellion would be anticipated by the tall trees, needing to chock off the floor. Those living on the floor, will then need to find a way to survive, while living in the shadows, hoping for lightning, hurricanes, tornados, forest fires, or even an earthquake to clean the slate, so new life can begin.

 

One type of tall tree, which would work in the immortal forest, are trees that contract their leaves in the bright sun and expanding them only in the dim light. This allows the forest floor to get brightest light, even when the canopy has tall trees. This type of tall tree are those who go where things are just beginning to evolve and the hard light of data is very dim. They avoid the hard light of the well trodden path, allowing this brightest light to go those on the floor. Aging is necessary because the system is inverted to the needs of immortality on the forest floor.

[martillo]

From a dispassionate point of view, aging is necessary for biological and social evolution, even if I subjectively would like to live forever. It is harder for continuous change and progress unless life ages and expires.

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I know it is hard/difficult to imagine how an entire World could run if aging would not be present. But hard/difficult don't mean impossible.

You know, all what we know about our World could be even restricting our own capacity to imagine a possible World without aging.

 

Of course fundamental changes in relation of our notion of World would be necessary. For example a change in the basics instincts in all kind of living beings (animals, vegetals, bacteria, whatever) would be needed. But this doesn't mean impossible.

[martillo]

It’s also necessary to point out that, despite an long-standing fringe-science literature claiming the contrary (eg: Tompkin’s and Bird’s 1973 The Secret Life of Plants), there is no credible scientific evidence that UV and higher energy photons can, as Martillo claims

 

Quote:

… come from any environment and from inside any organism.

 

Although high energy photons and other particles can come from substances found in plant and animal tissues, such as minute quantities of radioisotopes ingested in air, water, and food, they are not produced by biological metabolism, so it’s not impractical to isolate a living organism from effectively all high-energy radiation.

You didn't understood the new phenomen I introduced which I claim needs further research to be demonstrated present of course:

The other line of research I think would be needed is to verify that too energetic photons (above deep blue color) are produced spontaneously by any atom (organisms' atoms and environment's atoms) under normal conditions without any external source of them (in the abscenece of external radiation). I mean even in a submarine under thje deep sea we would find those photons (may be just as some "background radiation noise").

The physical mechanism that allows the production of this photons is that any atom can in principle absorb the energy of successive lower-energetic photons accumulating energy and spontaneously emit one photon with high energy. I think this possibility haven't been explored yet.

 

[EDITED]:

The link at wikipedia mentions that actually are currently present some species that would be inmortal at least as far as it is known or they have been studied.

First let me point out that the concept of inmortality of a species through the reproduction of their beings (even if by cloning) as one of the given examples is not the concept I'm managing. I'm considering the inmortality of each particular being of any species.

 

On other side, it can be easily found at the internet information about how all the ultraviolet photons (a, B, C, ...) ar really harmfull to any being. Even it is known they are used to sterilize instruments and environments annihilating any kind of life-form.

May be some very special specie could be very resistant due to some very special organic molecules of their cells and this would deserve an interesting resarch but this is not an argument against that all the rest of the beings in nature do age in normal conditions nor that the reason/cause of the aging to be the "too energetic photons" (above the viewable spectrum) present even as a "background noise" only.

 

May be there are also other reasons/causes for aging, and they would deserve further research of course, what I'm saying is that I'm considering the too energetic photons as the main cause and that this deserve further researchs.

 

[EDITED]