Dowsing

[Moontanman]

If dowsing has any reality to it at all I think it's connected with fault lines and water domes under ground. Trees just might naturally grow along a fault line that has water seeping out of it.

[Galapagos]

It really is wild how this stuff seems to work, I've seen it work but I've also read reports that debunked it completely. Personally I am torn as to what to think.

 

The only times I've seen it tested it has failed miserably:

 

YouTube - James Randi and a Dowser http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOsCnX-TKIY

 

YouTube - Dawkins debunks dowsing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VAasVXtCOI

 

Also, check out the ideomotor effect:

Ideomotor effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[CraigD]

In science, it’s necessary to verify a claimed physical effect with accurate experiments. A straightforward and accurate experiment is to randomly conceal many empty and full water cooler-size bottles, then, without telling them or the experiment’s observers where the full bottles have been concealed, allow dowsers to determine which are full and which are empty.

 

This has been done many times – most of the recent experiments recorded as video files I’ve seen, such as those linked to by Galapagos’s post, follow this basic experiment design. The results have always been a failure of dowsers to find the water significantly more or less successfully than random or human guessing.

 

Scientists shouldn't accept claims such as Moontanman’s unless at least one dowser produces a successful result in such an experiment.

 

It’s worth noting that an experiment to test dowsing in which a dowser indicates a place, a well is dug or sunk, and if water is found, the outcome is scored a success, is not a valid experiment. The main reason it isn’t is that most groundwater is not concentrated into small areas at varying altitudes below ground, but spread over large areas at nearly the same altitude, so any means of picking a spot on the typical property, including randomly, will succeed for a given maximum depth if any spot on the property will succeed.

 

None of this is implies that many people, including dowsers, believe that dowsing works because of a physically real effect. It implies that these people are mistaken.

[Moontanman]

In science, it’s necessary to verify a claimed physical effect with accurate experiments. A straightforward and accurate experiment is to randomly conceal many empty and full water cooler-size bottles, then, without telling them or the experiment’s observers where the full bottles have been concealed, allow dowsers to determine which are full and which are empty.

 

I would never expect to be able to find a bottle of water buried inthe ground, that smacks of a supernatural cause like the guys who say they can find golf balls or lost money.

 

This has been done many times – most of the recent experiments recorded as video files I’ve seen, such as those linked to by Galapagos’s post, follow this basic experiment design. The results have always been a failure of dowsers to find the water significantly more or less successfully than random or human guessing.

 

There in lies the flaw, such an experiment makes no sense to a real dowser, a real dowser knows water must be influencing the local geomagnetic field in some was as it flows trough a fault or vein or collects deep underground in a dome. Finding water bottles is a fools errand.

 

Scientists shouldn't accept claims such as Moontanman’s unless at least one dowser produces a successful result in such an experiment.

 

Such an experiemnt is fatally flawed as I pointed out.

 

It’s worth noting that an experiment to test dowsing in which a dowser indicates a place, a well is dug or sunk, and if water is found, the outcome is scored a success, is not a valid experiment. The main reason it isn’t is that most groundwater is not concentrated into small areas at varying altitudes below ground, but spread over large areas at nearly the same altitude, so any means of picking a spot on the typical property, including randomly, will succeed for a given maximum depth if any spot on the property will succeed.

None of this is implies that many people, including dowsers, believe that dowsing works because of a physically real effect. It implies that these people are mistaken.

 

Where i live now the water table is spread out just a few feet underground, it flows either not at all or so slowly it is not easily detectable. anywhere you dig you get water. you can drill a well with a garden hose and some PVC pipe. My dowsing skills do not work here at all. It is not true that random drilling will always produce results if you drill deep enough. I have found water where a driller had drilled multiple holes some quite deep, to find little or nothing but when they drill were I found an indication they got plenty of water. In the mountains where I grew up water runs along fault lines, in veins, and collects under domes, finding these is the key in finding a plentiful supply of good water. I honestly do think there is science behind this, not the supernatural.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

 

Re: Science shows that dowsing does not work

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigD View Post

In science, it’s necessary to verify a claimed physical effect with accurate experiments. A straightforward and accurate experiment is to randomly conceal many empty and full water cooler-size bottles, then, without telling them or the experiment’s observers where the full bottles have been concealed, allow dowsers to determine which are full and which are empty.

Mr.Moon-

I would never expect to be able to find a bottle of water buried inthe ground, that smacks of a supernatural cause like the guys who say they can find golf balls or lost money.

Yah that...xactly.

 

t’s worth noting that an experiment to test dowsing in which a dowser indicates a place, a well is dug or sunk, and if water is found, the outcome is scored a success, is not a valid experiment. The main reason it isn’t is that most groundwater is not concentrated into small areas at varying altitudes below ground, but spread over large areas at nearly the same altitude, so any means of picking a spot on the typical property, including randomly, will succeed for a given maximum depth if any spot on the property will succeed.

None of this is implies that many people, including dowsers, believe that dowsing works because of a physically real effect. It implies that these people are mistaken.

If this were true and you could drill anywhere and hit water and water was everywhere under propertys wouldn't we all eventually sink:hihi:

 

 

Edit: Minor misread they do "qualify" their argument with "for a given maximum depth" and "if at all" :) What a load:hihi:

[pamela]

originally posted by Moon

There in lies the flaw, such an experiment makes no sense to a real dowser, a real dowser knows water must be influencing the local geomagnetic field in some was as it flows trough a fault or vein or collects deep underground in a dome. Finding water bottles is a fools errand.

I cannot wrap my mind around this post......

are you saying that the dowsing branch has magnetic properties that allow it to attract to water and hence guide the branch? or what?

What area of science to do you purpose to put this claim?

Please explain your theory in scientific terms

[Moontanman]

Yah that...xactly.

 

If this were true and you could drill anywhere and hit water and water was everywhere under propertys wouldn't we all eventually sink:hihi:

 

 

Edit: Minor misread they do "qualify" their argument with "for a given maximum depth" and "if at all" :) What a load:hihi:

 

Actually in areas where the water table is spread out at approximately the same depth like where I live the water exists in pore spaces between sand grains. remove the water and the pore spaces would shrink some. There is considerable pore space between grains of rock even down to several miles within the earth. if the pore spaces are full of water you will indeed hit water of some amount no matter where you drill but in many areas the spore spaces are not conductive to water moving in large amounts. In those areas you have to find fault lines, domes and veins to get enough water to pump it out of the ground.

 

Here where i live the water table is not only widespread it is also fast moving due to the large pore size and the sand and gravel subsurface. the up side is that no matter where you drill you get water and plenty of it, the down side is during an earthquake the ground is prone to liquefaction and heavy things can sink if the ground is shaken up much. Luckily Earthquakes are rare here for sure.

[Moontanman]

I cannot wrap my mind around this post......

are you saying that the dowsing branch has magnetic properties that allow it to attract to water and hence guide the branch? or what?

What area of science to do you purpose to put this claim?

Please explain your theory in scientific terms

 

I cannot do that, I make no apologies for it, I stated at the beginning I didn't know why it worked just that it does. Most knowledge able dowsers I've talked to talk about veins and faults and domes. It's my supposition that Geo-magnetic fields are in some way connected top the dowsers ability to find water. I have also heard other dowsers talk of this. My grandfather explained it by "forces from the water flowing in the ground" but he didn't know about Geo-magnetic fields. this claim is in the strange claims forum for that reason. I don't even know why I can't use the wires thing and others can, all i know is only a willow branch works for me.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

I think a dowser....well trained enough....would be able to dowse without any sticks, pendulums or wires.....I firmly believe they are merely "tools" to take the rather abstract idea of detecting (being able to detect) naturally occuring forces (Geo-magnetic, or otherwise....due to lack of terminology) and make it more "concrete" by giving the "tool" the credit.....think "placebo effect".....it wasn't the "sugar pill" instead it was your body that fixed itself....lets assume they skip the pill and tell you "your mind will fix you, all you have to do is believe".......do you think you would recover or do you think you would promptly call the doc a crack pot and seek out another?

[pamela]

DD,

Your post sounds very much like divination;)

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

DD,

Your post sounds very much like divination;)

Just to be sure.....you do realize I believe very much in both that dowsing is legitimate (with notable exceptions), and that the body is very much capable of doing some pretty impressive things when the mind believes (placebo effect)....I mean heck there are people getting surgery without the usual chemical anesthetic, instead receiving hypnosis for pain management....and the fact that it works and is gaining wide acceptance speaks for itself.

[pamela]

originally posted by DD

Just to be sure.....you do realize I believe very much in both that dowsing is legitimate (with notable exceptions), and that the body is very much capable of doing some pretty impressive things when the mind believes (placebo effect)....I mean heck there are people getting surgery without the usual chemical anesthetic, instead receiving hypnosis for pain management....and the fact that it works and is gaining wide acceptance speaks for itself.

Well i do now and key word being "believe":)

You have to remember, that you must support with data. Since you have brought up medicine, here is an example.

Someone is sick, lets say with a virus, and they are miserable. They decide to "want" or believe they are going to get better. This sounds like a pretty good idea and it makes them happy. Now being happy and believing they are on the road to recovery-they miraculously get better

Now was it their desire or want?

What actually occurred was this

While miserable and sick the thymus was closed- the thymus is where the production of the T lymphocites are generated. Their responsibility is to boot the immune system and target those areas where foreign invaders are making us sick. Once we opt for being happy, the thymus then opens and releases these to bring us back to optimum health.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

I don't know if faith based healing and placebo type are considered to be in the same vain but the underlying effect is the same.....or at least appears to be to me.....even with the faith based healing there is a lot of crap cooked up by those who are only out to make a buck and defraud unsuspecting suckers...and of course are those that attribute results to various spirits and gods....so all must be addressed with skepticism...but in the end the mind is a marvelous thing capable of ......

 

This is the problem with things like this....once some @$$hole adds spiritual BS to things like this it becomes nearly impossible to explain the legitimate science that may be there lurking waiting to be revealed.....propose an alternative power generation system that is not easily explained.....some jerk off calls it perpetual motion and all scientific interest in it goes out the window....regardless of how legitimate the science behind it...in either case the case for what may be legitimate and provable becomes infinitely more difficult.

 

I'll have to come back and hit this with some pollish but it'll do for now.......friggin brain is stuck

[pamela]

orginally posted by DD

but in the end the mind is a marvelous thing capable of ......

I agree, within the mind lies the passion to discover new knowledge and not just accept the current prognosis. A place where new theories are born, that may become the reality of tomorrow:)

[Galapagos]

A Minnesotan man has been claiming to possess demonstrable dowsing powers, and has been trying to apply to James Randi's Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge:

YouTube - James Randi Speaks: Ideomotor Effect http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMtuWymUzz4

 

Randi points to the same phenomenon I did earlier in this thread, the ideomotor effect:

Ideomotor effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia