paigetheoracle Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 On the other hand the very idea that an Iraqi would feel confident enough to do such a thing speaks volumes about what America has done there, Ten years ago it would have unthinkable for anyone to do such a thing, instant death by the most painful means at best, now it's a protest that people can actually discuss the pros and cons of. I think that is significant to say the least. So do I and probably in the same way you do. Is this democracy at work at last? I remember a similar incident with Kruschev, when somebody criticized him and said things were better under Stalin.'Who said that!' he shouted and the room went quiet. After which he said something like 'None of you would have had the courage to speak out under Stalin - be thankful for more lenient times' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paigetheoracle Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 By the way, you can't hang a man for 'intention' or we'd all be guilty of murderous thoughts, whether we called them self defence or justified homicide in our own minds. You can jail a man for contempt for throwing a shoe but not hang him for it or it becomes legalized murder itself (Lynch mob mentality that says more about the fears of those doing it than the guilt of the person being hanged) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paigetheoracle Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 The guy who threw the shoe, threw the first punch, which was a sucker shot. Bush should have been allowed to take one or two free shots. Since that is beneath the dignity of a head of state, he is allowed to have someone to fill in for him as his second. That sort of happened with the host making that decision because of polite protocol. The shoe man did not show up the next day for his hearing. Obviously he did not duck. Here is the cause and affect, logic. He not only almost hurt Bush but also insulted his host, who now looks vulnerable to his political adversaries, for letting this happen. They can get mileage out this. Crap flows down hill until someone is held accountable as the scape goat. From the top of the food chain, may have landed on the head of security. He didn't think he should take all the heat, so he crapped down his own hill. Finally someone shared the crapped with the thug. The thug may not have been aware a shoe can hurt. I am sure he knows now. If Sadaam Hussein had been the host, he would have skinned him alive and made shoes out of him. Iraq is now kinder because of Bush. Here we have the pride thing at work again and well pointed out by Hydrogen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questor Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 Paige you said: ''We're the kind of people who see the joke.''Why don't you throw a couple of shoes at Obama and see how many laughs you get? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modest Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 How would you feel if Obama was hit by this person? Would you also be happy about that? I'm sorry questor, but this is a ridiculous hypothetical. No one would throw a shoe at President Elect Obama—everyone loves Obama. But, even if some shoe accidentally got tossed in his general direction mistakenly, I think we know what would happen. Trumpets would sound, the skies would part, and angels would descend from heaven to catch the offending shoe. :) ~modest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questor Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 On the serious side (maybe you are serious. a Messiah complex), Am I the only one here who understands the implications of ths act? Do you mind that the president elected by the people of the US suffered the most grievous personal insult the Muslims have to offer, that this was also an attack upon America itself?Is it self hatred or hatred of your country and countrymen that allows one to dismiss this as ''free speech''? I think Bush handled it well. I think some members of our society have shown a very odd attitude toward what could have been an explosive situation. Consider if this had happened to Putin, or Chavez, or any other head of state. I guess the shoe thrower rightly guessed the Americans are now wussess who don't care who insults them or how they are treated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paigetheoracle Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 Paige you said: ''We're the kind of people who see the joke.''Why don't you throw a couple of shoes at Obama and see how many laughs you get? Probably because you are physically closer to him than I am - I'm in Britain!:) Why this bit about Obama? Have you got a problem with him that you don't have with Bush?:) Sorry but I'm not a fan of either (I've a cousin in Las Vegas who doesn't like either party candidates or George Bush). Obama has done nothing for nobody, so is a better candidate than George who messed up both internal and externally (Neutral as opposed to negative but where is the positive leader the US needs?) By the way I'm off on holiday for a fortnight as from tonight, so don't expect a quick reply to any more postings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modest Posted December 23, 2008 Report Share Posted December 23, 2008 Consider if this had happened to Putin Now you’re on to something. Putin is a Judo instructor... so he probably would have ripped off his suit revealing a Judo gi underneath (complete with black belt), jumped across the crowd, thrown the guy to the ground, and put him in a kimura breaking his arm before the first shoe was ready to be thrown. That would have been fun! ~modest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted December 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2008 Yes well I may be paranoid too but not that paranoid! Questor has the right to his opinion and has stated it. I have the right to my opinion and have stated it. You have the right to your opinion and have stated it. The shoe thrower had the right to his opinion and stated it. An insult to your country? Only in your mind - even Bush laughed because he was nimble enough to dodge the insult as you'd term it, showing he has a more magnanimous spirit than either of you two. Bush didn't let his ego (pretentiousness) get in the way and turned the whole incident into a joke for which I admire him - you and the shoe thrower let fear turn this whole issue into something menacing, making you and he losers, and people like me and others on this thread (as well as GW) winners*. This is about attitude - the courage to laugh things off or the fear that reacts violently by word or deed, to cover up that fear (face it, deal with it or get counselling - it is giving you sleepless nights you don't need for your mental health sake - I know, I've been there: This is where the science comes in - look up the snowball effect of fear, lack of sleep and insanity/ death). * The Navaho or another tribe of Peublo Indians, used to have a yearly festival where urine and excreta was thrown over everyone to defeat the false pride of the ego but it was given up because tourists who came to witness it, couldn't take getting covered in the stuff: The problem as Eastern Religion teaches heavily too, is between the ears - not in the 'real' physical world. This is where the interpretation of good or bad starts and the defence of our pride starts (See also Emperors New Clothes by Hans Christian Anderson).:) Paige I wonder what your reaction would be if someone threw a shoe at the Queen? I think it would be hilarious, i bet she wouldn't be quick enough to dodge it. The insult to ahead of state is wrong dude. I don't give a rats *** bout George bush the man but he is my president, the leader of my country on a diplomatic mission in another country. It does indeed show that Iraq is Much freer that it was 10 years ago but it's still a disrespectful thing to do. I don't understand how you can be ok with it no matter what it shows about freedom. Freedom isn't anarchy, we owe much to respect in our civilization, with out respect we have no civilization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pamela Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 looks like there has been some more show throwing.. " In the Afghan capital of Kabul, about 3000 people gathered outside a prominent mosque, according to police estimates.Men in the crowd threw stones and shoes at an effigy of President George. W. Bush" ..yahoo news this was in response to the recent Hamas deaths at Gaza. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted January 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 I wonder what is next, ICBMs armed with multimegaton shoe warheads? I'm not sure what they intend to accomplish with this but it's obvious not everyone in these countries like us much. I wonder what the equivalent of this would in our culture? does anyone know if there is a direct equivalent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pamela Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 I had spoken with someone recently who is Muslim, concerning this. Apparently, it is very disrespectful towards the person. The only thing that i can equivocate it to, would be a spit in the face.When is a shoe, just a shoe? They painstakingly check them at the airport before boarding.........There is growing contempt for us as a country and not just about Bush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paigetheoracle Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 On the serious side (maybe you are serious. a Messiah complex), Am I the only one here who understands the implications of ths act? Do you mind that the president elected by the people of the US suffered the most grievous personal insult the Muslims have to offer, that this was also an attack upon America itself?Is it self hatred or hatred of your country and countrymen that allows one to dismiss this as ''free speech''? I think Bush handled it well. I think some members of our society have shown a very odd attitude toward what could have been an explosive situation. Consider if this had happened to Putin, or Chavez, or any other head of state. I guess the shoe thrower rightly guessed the Americans are now wussess who don't care who insults them or how they are treated. Do you not see - this is a sign of strength, that everyone laughed at the act. Strength laughs off everything that is the joke life is. The frightened and people out for revenge are in a submissive (weak) state, not a dominant want: Watch nature programs - the dominant male just sits there, it is those fighting for dominance that rankle over the smallest things and therefore are the weakest. Personal insult? Beauty is in the eye - ugliness is in the 'thought', rather than the act isn't it? Implications? What implications? You are acting as weak as they are by your stance but like them seem incapable of seeing it. It's like Israel and Gaza - these puny rocket attacks lead to retaliation. I feel sorry for the civilians that get killed but I don't turn round and see The Palestinians as anything but victims of their own stupidity, anymore than gang members getting shot, trying to prove again how mucho they are: Male pride not victims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paigetheoracle Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Now you’re on to something. Putin is a Judo instructor... so he probably would have ripped off his suit revealing a Judo gi underneath (complete with black belt), jumped across the crowd, thrown the guy to the ground, and put him in a kimura breaking his arm before the first shoe was ready to be thrown. That would have been fun! ~modest Modest, this is a hilarious post! It should be moved to Quality Jokes (Water cooler).Well fended off and responded to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paigetheoracle Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Paige I wonder what your reaction would be if someone threw a shoe at the Queen? I think it would be hilarious, i bet she wouldn't be quick enough to dodge it. The insult to ahead of state is wrong dude. I don't give a rats *** bout George bush the man but he is my president, the leader of my country on a diplomatic mission in another country. It does indeed show that Iraq is Much freer that it was 10 years ago but it's still a disrespectful thing to do. I don't understand how you can be ok with it no matter what it shows about freedom. Freedom isn't anarchy, we owe much to respect in our civilization, with out respect we have no civilization. It is disrespectful and 'if' it had been thrown at the queen and had hit her, it would have hurt because she wouldn't have been able to dodge it as well as a younger person like Bush did. If this was Dodgeball, the loser would have been the person who couldn't avoid the incoming missile - how would you react to such a situation yourself? Would you hiss at the other side for scoring or feel sorry for the guy on your side that got hit? (Blame or commiserate?). Life is about doing our best not to get 'hit' but we can't avoid everything, all the time and it is the acceptance of this that allows us to get up, brush ourselves down and start all over again. In other words continuing the game, not sulking and going off in a huff. This is the whole point and to GW's credit, his attitude to the incident even if not yours as a loser (To win is in the mind but so is to lose - if you can't let go of the incident and get on with your life, you're missing Christ's point and Zen's - turn the other cheek/ put down the burden of the argument and just get on with it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 On the serious side (maybe you are serious. a Messiah complex), Am I the only one here who understands the implications of ths act? Do you mind that the president elected by the people of the US suffered the most grievous personal insult the Muslims have to offer, that this was also an attack upon America itself?Is it self hatred or hatred of your country and countrymen that allows one to dismiss this as ''free speech''? I think Bush handled it well. I think some members of our society have shown a very odd attitude toward what could have been an explosive situation. Consider if this had happened to Putin, or Chavez, or any other head of state. I guess the shoe thrower rightly guessed the Americans are now wussess who don't care who insults them or how they are treated. Do you not see - this is a sign of strength, that everyone laughed at the act. I also think it's interesting that Questor says "Is it self hatred or hatred of your country and countrymen that allows one to dismiss this as ''free speech''? I think Bush handled it well." He accuses us of hating our country for laughing off the incident and dismissing it as free speech then praises Bush in the very next sentence for "handling it well" when Bush laughed off the incident and dismissed it as free speech. :) ~Modest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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