Ayers, Liddy, and other political questions about McCain and Obama's associations

[Buffy]

...it seems you have delved deeply into the in indiscretions of G.G. L iddy, while leaving the toilet bowl of Bill Ayers life unopened. I have to wonder why this is true?

Pot calls kettle black.

 

Delightful.

 

But not surprising, unfortunately, given the direction of this "debate."

 

No, actually I'm a student of the 60's from the Free Speech Movement through Kent State ("Terrorists! They deserved to die! They *provoked* those poor patriotic National Guardsmen!" If you bother to look even superficially, you'll see the parallels between COINTELPRO and the more public Guilt By Libel popular among extreme conservatives today...), and a friend of mine was actually the President of the SDS at a "major southwestern university" in the late 60s. He never committed any acts of violence or advocated any, but nonetheless, I'm sure that my "relationship" to him probably makes me a terrorist too!

Also, if you want to accuse me of something, please quote my words rather than your inference of my thoughts.

Its quite true that I'm finding fault with what you are *not* saying, but rather implying. This is absolutely justifiable if you continue to ignore what I say and just repeat the Conservative Talking Points and do not address the issues posed. If you ignore what I say, I'll simply have to repeat it, since the only conclusion that I can draw is that that you misunderstood and need it explained again.

 

But I'll play along with your demand to address your point for a minute, because it's only fair, and fun to do so to boot:

If you have some information from something other than an activist source that points to the contrary, please share it.

This will be difficult because in the past you have dismissed anything that you've disagreed with as coming from leftist blogs, but I'll make an attempt even though I'm sure you'll call CBS, the Washington Post and the Chicago Sun-Times extreme terrorist apologizers....

Ayers, 63, spent 10 years as a fugitive in the 1970s when he was part of the "Weather Underground," an anti-Vietnam War group that protested U.S. policies by bombing the Pentagon, U.S. Capitol and a string of other government buildings. Nobody was hurt in the attacks by the defunct organization, which the FBI labeled a "domestic terrorist group."

...Federal charges against the two were dropped because of improper surveillance, so they avoided prison....

Of course the folks you promote in the Bush Administration would not allow that today, and they'd be on that travel list faster than you could say Osama!

Ayers, a Glen Ellyn native who became active in SDS while attending the University of Michigan, is the son of late Commonwealth Edison CEO Thomas G. Ayers. Ayers has praised his dad for standing by him while he was on the lam.

Imagine, a capitalist pig who supported Nixon stood by his son! How Un-American!

 

Do you know who Thomas Ayers, a CEO of one of the largest utilities in the WORLD, "associated" with? Should they all be condemned as traitors unworthy of citizenship too?

A book Ayers penned about those years, Fugitive Days, landed him in hot water on Sept. 11, 2001. That morning, the New York Times ran a story about the book in which Ayers said, "I don't regret setting bombs. I feel we didn't do enough." Ayers' statement was made before the World Trade Center attacks, but its timing led some to believe it was in response. "My book is in fact a condemnation of terrorism in all its forms -- individual, group and official," Ayers later said in a letter to the Chicago Tribune.

So your definitive statement--I know, simply repeating what Michelle and Rush said, so it's not really your fault--that he is unrepentant is completely false.

 

Do you wish to slander him more?

 

But whether Bill Ayers is evil or not is IRRELEVANT to the accusation that Obama has a "close relationship" with him. He could be a serial killer child molester, but it would not matter if there was only a tenuous relationship if any at all:

The only hard facts that have come out so far are the $200 contribution by Ayers to the Obama re-election fund, and their joint membership of the eight-person Woods Fund Board.

What are McCain's claims? Well, they clearly insinuate a "close" relationship that does not exist:

A recent web advertisement from Republican presidential candidate Senator John McCain makes two false claims about a connection between Bill Ayers and Senator Barack Obama.

 

1. “Ayers and Obama ran a radical education foundation, together.”

 

The foundation they are referring to is the Chicago Annenberg Challenge (CAC), set up in the early 1990’s with funding from the Annenberg Foundation to reform public schools. Walter Annenberg is a well-known philanthropist and conservative Republican.

...

2. “They wrote the foundation’s bylaws together.”

 

“They didn’t sit over a coffee table somewhere and say ‘let’s do it this way,’ they were involved with a large group of people,” Rolling says, “They did not actually write them.”

 

Rolling says Ayers served on a voluntary advisory board that hired a lawyer to write the bylaws that were eventually approved by the entire board of directors - one of the votes for the bylaws came from Obama.

But I'll repeat since you seem to have missed my actual point to continue to obsess about how evil Mr. Ayers is:

 

The relative evilness of Mr. Ayers and Mr. Liddy, and more importantly whether or not Mr McCain or Mr. Obama have any significant relationship with them is not worthy of debate, and to continue to do so is not only a disservice to the American people who care about *policy*, it persists in creating legitimacy for the divisive politics of hatred and demonization of your fellow citizens.

 

That you ignore this point is perfectly understandable since the Politics of Personal Destruction is a cornerstone of conservative political thought, and to recognize this would be to recognize that Gingrich/Delay-style Conservative Political Activism is fundamentally Un-American. To support such divisive practices will indeed bring about the decline of our democracy, and as a Liberal Republican, I will take every opportunity to speak out against it.

snarky comment noted, but you have the right to say it.

Whew! Since everything else you write seems to indicate that those of us who disagree with you are somehow unworthy of a right to free speech, that's a breath of fresh air! Keep going in that direction! Remember: EVERYONE has a right to free speech, especially those that you disagree with.

 

Conspiracy? Hell, we couldn't agree on lunch,

Buffy

[freeztar]

A wise one once told me that We are the eyes of the world!

 

The word "terrorist" should have a strict definition! Not just anyone is a terrorist!

 

I can "terrorize" you with thoughts that will hopefully bring peac3. Terror lies in fear. Fear lies in the unknown. Share what you know!

 

YouTube - Grateful Dead- eyes of the world http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK8x3NULaXE&feature=related

[questor]

Buffy, you must have some reason you refuse to read or believe the links I have supplied about Bill Ayers. That's OK with me. If you did want to study his career there is voluminous information about his past and his present. As for killing, his gang did cause the death of 3 of their own members and are believed to have killed 2 policemen. I would think that any fool who plants bombs in public places has to deal with the fact that people may be harmed.

He is unrepentant about the harm he has caused by his acts.

I don't know why you continue to justify Ayers activities because of what Liddy served time for. Aren't these two different acts? Is Ayers to be excused for bombing because Liddy committed burglary? What kind of reasoning is this? Why are we talking Liddy at all when the subject is Ayers? I have not called Obama a terrorist and I have no reason to do so. What I can do is point out the obvious truth, he consorts with people of criminality and violence, Tony Rezco, Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers. He wants to institute a socialist economy and will probably be a tool of the radical left. Certainly he will work with Pelosi , Frank , Dodd and the liberal congress to undermine what is left of our traditional society. We will have no peace in our country as long as we have the government allied against our corporations and producers. You can't continue to create a win-lose society without conflict. You can't continue to rob the rich to subsidize the poor, since it is not the fault of the rich that we have the poor. Obama has not said he will attack the true problems in our public schools which if done would best help people out of poverty. Instead he just wants to do the typical liberal solution--throw more taxpayer money at the problem. This has never worked and won't work now.

I think Obama is talented, intelligent and articulate. I do not think his ideas will work for America. McCain is no great shakes either, but he at least doesn't

have the liberal baggage Obama will bring.

[questor]

Buffy, by the way..

No, actually I'm a student of the 60's from the Free Speech Movement through Kent State ("Terrorists! They deserved to die! They *provoked* those poor patriotic National Guardsmen!" If you bother to look even superficially, you'll see the parallels between COINTELPRO and the more public Guilt By Libel popular among extreme conservatives today...), and a friend of mine was actually the President of the SDS at a "major southwestern university" in the late 60s. He never committed any acts of violence or advocated any, but nonetheless, I'm sure that my "relationship" to him probably makes me a terrorist too!

 

Since you brought up this subject, would you mind telling me what this movement wanted to accomplish ?

[Moontanman]

Buffy, by the way..

 

 

Since you brought up this subject, would you mind telling me what this movement wanted to accomplish ?

 

Damn Questor, get with the program, they were planning the fall of Western Civilization, even I knew that :)

[questor]

FRUSTRATED BY THE lack of progress on social and political issues and reacting to the turmoil that had spread across the land, a number of groups began to advocate radical measures to achieve their goals of justice and equality. Four of the most prominent and successful of these organizations were the Black Panther Party, the Students for a Democratic Society, the Weather Underground Organization, and the Youth International Party, or the Yippies.

The Black Panther Party was founded in 1966 in Oakland, California, by Bobby Seale and Huey Newton. They demanded the right to control the schools, medical centers, welfare programs, and police system in poor black areas, exemption from military service and the right to bear arms for self-protection. They organized chapters throughout the country, initiating 'liberation' schools, breakfast programs for children, and medical clinics in poor areas. The Black Panthers had many confrontations with the police that led to shootings and arrests.

 

The SDS was founded in Chicago in 1962 and was active throughout the sixties on college campuses across the land. In the mid-sixties, they were active mainly in civil rights causes, but later they became more concerned with ending the United States' involvement in Vietnam. The SDS often coordinated activities with the Black Panthers and espoused radical, though at first, Marxist, means of protest. A splinter group known as the Weathermen believed in violent revolution and acts of terrorism to achieve their goals. This group was implicated in a number of bombings at colleges and federal institutions.

link: Psychedelic 60's: Four Radical Groups

 

and:

SDS developed from the Student League for Industrial Democracy (SLID), the youth branch of a socialist educational organization known as the League for Industrial Democracy (LID). LID descended from the Intercollegiate Socialist Society, started in 1905. Early in 1960, SLID decided to change its name into SDS. The phrase “industrial democracy” sounded too narrow and too labor oriented, making it more difficult to recruit students. Moreover, because the LID's leadership did not correspond to the expectations and the mood on the campuses, the SLID felt the need to dissociate itself from its parent organization. SDS held its first meeting in 1960 at Ann Arbor, Michigan, where Alan Haber was elected president. Its political manifesto, known as the Port Huron Statement, was adopted at the organization's first convention in 1962, based on an earlier draft by staff member Tom Hayden.

 

 

The Port Huron Statement criticized the political system of the United States for failing to achieve international peace and critiqued Cold War foreign policy, the threat of nuclear war, and the arms race. In domestic matters, it criticized racial discrimination, economic inequality, big businesses, trade unions and political parties. In addition to its deep critique and analysis of the American system, the manifesto also suggested a series of reforms: it proclaimed a need for reshaped two genuine political parties to attain greater democracy, for stronger power for citizens through citizens’ lobbies, for more substantial involvement by workers in business management, and for an enlarged public sector with increased government welfare, including a “program against poverty.” The manifesto provided ideas of what and how to work for and to improve, and also advocated non-violent civil disobedience as the means by which student youth could bring forth a "participatory democracy." Kirkpatrick Sale criticized the manifesto as “nothing less than an ideology, however raw and imperfect and however much would have resisted this word.”

 

and:

On November 5, 2008 SDS will be in solidarity with students from France, Liberia, Canada, Ireland, Germany, and more countries participating in an international student day of action against the privatization of our schools and lives. Since in America this happens to be the day after the presidential election, people will be distracted and it’s not a strategic day to act. So, instead of one day of action, on the 5th SDS will launch a national Week of Education and outreach, building up to a national Day of Demands on November 14th.

 

Day of Demands:

On November 14th we will take a step toward transforming the movements for student power and accessible education that we’re building in schools around the country into a Student Movement that can and will make demands at the level necessary to transform the entire educational system. We will, with much fanfare and merrymaking, publicly make our demands to the people and institutions that control our education system; the Department of Education, our school Administrations, Student Loan Companies, and the rest of the unaccountable folks who ignore our needs and profit from our exploitation.

 

The goal of this Day of Demands is to announce the arrival of a militant, radical, and dedicated student movement and make public our vision for a democratic, liberatory, and accessible education system. It is to take the power we have been building at our schools and in our communities, and by mobilizing collectively allow ourselves to make demands more sweeping and more far reaching than anything we can accomplish at our individual schools.

 

 

On the Day of Demands SDS chapters from across the country will organize marches, rallies, and parades that will end in public presentations of both our local and national demands to the targets chosen by local chapters. Media teams will make sure the whole world hears us.

link:Students for a Democratic Society

 

Sounds like we are gearing up for some of the good old days. Maybe some bottle throwing, burning cars, injured policemen and student takeovers. This is good for a peaceful society.

[Moontanman]

Buffy, you must have some reason you refuse to read or believe the links I have supplied about Bill Ayers. That's OK with me. If you did want to study his career there is voluminous information about his past and his present. As for killing, his gang did cause the death of 3 of their own members and are believed to have killed 2 policemen. I would think that any fool who plants bombs in public places has to deal with the fact that people may be harmed.

He is unrepentant about the harm he has caused by his acts.

I don't know why you continue to justify Ayers activities because of what Liddy served time for. Aren't these two different acts? Is Ayers to be excused for bombing because Liddy committed burglary? What kind of reasoning is this? Why are we talking Liddy at all when the subject is Ayers? I have not called Obama a terrorist and I have no reason to do so. What I can do is point out the obvious truth, he consorts with people of criminality and violence, Tony Rezco, Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers. He wants to institute a socialist economy and will probably be a tool of the radical left. Certainly he will work with Pelosi , Frank , Dodd and the liberal congress to undermine what is left of our traditional society. We will have no peace in our country as long as we have the government allied against our corporations and producers. You can't continue to create a win-lose society without conflict. You can't continue to rob the rich to subsidize the poor, since it is not the fault of the rich that we have the poor. Obama has not said he will attack the true problems in our public schools which if done would best help people out of poverty. Instead he just wants to do the typical liberal solution--throw more taxpayer money at the problem. This has never worked and won't work now.

I think Obama is talented, intelligent and articulate. I do not think his ideas will work for America. McCain is no great shakes either, but he at least doesn't

have the liberal baggage Obama will bring.

 

No one is saying it's ok for Ayers to do anything what is being said is if it's ok to judge Obama with these BS insinuations then it's ok to Judge McCain in the same way. For you there is no Liberal idea that could ever possibly work but all Conservative ideas are great no matter what. That type of attitude will do more to bring our country down that any number of bad ideas by either side. No McCain doesn't have the Liberal baggage Obama does, by definition he shouldn't should he? He has an at least equal volume of Conservative baggage, bad ideas, decisions, skeletons in his closet. I think it's safe to say the Conservative ideal hasn't gotten us very far in the last eight years (at the very least) why should we be up for four more years of Conservative ideals? Is McCain going to do a 180 in any area that is currently going in the Conservative direction? If he did he would be Liberal, Right? Questor, you smell like a troll, talk like a troll, and evidently think like a troll. I honestly think you are too smart to be such a troll, stop drinking the koolaid, a fatal dose will eventually build up no matter how slowly you drink it.

[questor]

Moon, if all people that disagree with you are trolls, I'll be happy to be in that number. When you get yourself calmed down, tell me how liberalism has helped you or the country.

[Moontanman]

Moon, if all people that disagree with you are trolls, I'll be happy to be in that number. When you get yourself calmed down, tell me how liberalism has helped you or the country.

 

Questor, you are so cooperative, thank you for proving my point. This thread nor my last post has anything to do with how much Liberalism has improved my life or how much conservatism has either. It is about Activists on terror lists and lately about using smears and innuendos to influence votes but just to be the Liberal bastard that I am here is a short list.

 

legal access to birth control

civil rights

voting rights for women

equal pay for equal work

ending slavery

a decent minimum wage

the right of workers to unionize

 

 

Just a few of my favorites, now crawl back under your bridge.

[questor]

Moon, you're too easy...

civil rights:

[edit] Passage of the bill

The passage of the bill was largely spurred by the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. a week before. [2] Vote statistics (Senate):

 

Passed 71-20

Democrats: 42-17 (71.2% For, 28.8% Against)

Republicans: 29-3 (90.6% For, 9.4% Against)

House:

 

Passed 250-172

Democrats: 150-88 (63% For, 37% Against)

Republicans: 100-84 (54.3% For, 45.6% Against)

 

voting rights: 19th amendment, all states involved

 

ending slavery: I thought that was a Republican.. Lincoln..

 

I don't see how much of this helped you personally, but you know better than I do. Since you have gotten down to the name calling mode, why don't you ignore my posts for awhile? I'm sure other people are probably tired of our nit-picking.

.

[Moontanman]

Moon, you're too easy...

civil rights:

 

 

voting rights: 19th amendment, all states involved

 

So I guess that because it was all state involved it was Conservatives who fought for years to get it passed? Not! the people who fought for years for this right were Liberals.

 

 

 

ending slavery: I thought that was a Republican.. Lincoln..

 

 

Questor the label of "Conservative and Liberal" has switched parties in part and in total many times over the years. No one party has ever had a constant strangle hold on either side of the fence.

 

Quote:

[edit] Passage of the bill

The passage of the bill was largely spurred by the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. a week before. [2] Vote statistics (Senate)

 

Passed 71-20

Democrats: 42-17 (71.2% For, 28.8% Against)

Republicans: 29-3 (90.6% For, 9.4% Against)

House:

 

Passed 250-172

Democrats: 150-88 (63% For, 37% Against)

Republicans: 100-84 (54.3% For, 45.6% Against)

 

It was Liberals who fought for civil rights, it wasn't a rifle shot that prompted the civil rights act, get real. Years of struggle by Liberals and eventually with some help from Conservatives resulted in passing this act. It was a Liberal cause, just because it wasn't universally accepted by dems or stopped by repubs doesn't mean it wasn't a Liberal cause.

 

I don't see how much of this helped you personally, but you know better than I do. Since you have gotten down to the name calling mode, why don't you ignore my posts for awhile? I'm sure other people are probably tired of our nit-picking.

.

 

Questor these things helped everyone along with the things I mentioned you ignored and many thing I didn't mention these Liberal causes helped everyone, even Conservatives, even you.

[Turtle]

link: Psychedelic 60's: Four Radical Groups

 

FRUSTRATED BY THE lack of progress on social and political issues and reacting to the turmoil that had spread across the land, a number of groups began to advocate radical measures to achieve their goals of justice and equality.

 

Sounds like we are gearing up for some of the good old days. Maybe some bottle throwing, burning cars, injured policemen and student takeovers. This is good for a peaceful society.

 

Or even sounds like the American Revolution. How dare we the people! :D

[Moontanman]

Or even sounds like the American Revolution. How dare we the people! :D

 

Yeah! I forgot about that Liberal cause, I am sure the English were cussing those damn American Liberals and their crazy ideas of Independence!

[questor]

Craig, I have posted quite a number of links to news articles and video's, supporting my views on the role of Dodd, Frank and Acorn. What better source do you wish than a video of someone speaking in their own voice? Have you not seen any of this evidence?