Oh no we cant progress?

[jkellmd]

Sorry for being so verbose; I'm having too much fun. I'll do better limiting my threads in the future.

 

By the way, my friend reminds me that the idea of reality being a perceptual construct goes back even further, at least to Zarathustra (1500 bce or something like that).

[inside the sun]

Why limit yourself. What if mozart limited himself because people told him his music had too many notes?

[Tarantism]

the limits are set, we just havent found them yet.

[automatic existence]

Denial of "value" obfuscates the very discussion of values. Does the universe care...probably not. Does life itself has value, or indeed, what does? This question is unanswerable; at least no single answer is true for everyone.

 

a) Why is it unanswerable?

:) Why is it not the same answer for everyone.

Let me put it this way; If we have no reason to believe there is any values, why should we believe that there is? That’s my reasoning on the subject. If no arguments for values are valid we must discard the belief in them... The burden of evidence is not to prove that something does not exist, it is to prove that it does. And if there are no values at all, the discussion whether those values are relative or absolute is secondary at best.

 

Though, no matter what the answer is we will project individual values into things, but this is only a bias created by our pre-determined biological mechanism.

 

Our mission, then, is to recognize those internal biases, to reduce them as much as possible,

 

Yes! But I think most of us are misguided as to what they really are and therefore believe they are minimized when really they are unharmed. This reminds me of a contemporary observation. Nowadays, everybody talks about how important it is to "be yourself" and "think for your self". It, it almost seems like its been... beaten into their skulls! It´s really sweet, though, sweet and tragic.

 

If you are trying to be ourself, you have already failed.

[Tarantism]

haha the man has a point,

 

to "be yourself" has infact become...(drum roll)...A TREND!

 

as soon as being "original" became a common thing to want to be, it, of course, got interperated in a "musical sense" and a "poetic sense" and then into a "hot topic" sense. nowadays to "be original" is to war the newest spikey belt, or be a boy and wear eyeliner or something like that. its all good and dandy, but people should really stop fooling themselves.

 

the only way to be turely "original" is to believe that there is no truth, there is only you, and what you make the truth. make up new names for everything! hell, make up a language, if you are up to it. haha.

 

have fun,

(((tarantism)))

[jkellmd]

If we have no reason to believe there is any values, why should we believe that there is? That’s my reasoning on the subject. If no arguments for values are valid we must discard the belief in them... The burden of evidence is not to prove that something does not exist, it is to prove that it does.

 

I guess I just don't see the justification for this. It is not logically possible to disprove the existence of anything, maybe we haven't found the evidence yet. Nor can one prove the existence of an abstraction. You have found the "crack" in applied logic. Love, greed, value, goodness, truth, god, good taste, reason, joy, despair, morality, etc., only exist within our minds, finding occaisional resonance within others. No physical or purely logical proofs can ever exist for the lives of ideas. We might try to live without considering the abstract; but, isn't our ability to do so what makes us human? Isn't our "personality" mainly born from our view of these abstract ideas (for better or worse)?

[inside the sun]

nowadays to "be original" is to war the newest spikey belt, or be a boy and wear eyeliner or something like that.

 

That is skin deep. But yes it goes even furhter than that with some, being "orginal" now isn't on a trend skin deep, but also "personality" and "lifestyle's" are a trend. What is a trend. Why do we care/complain so much about those that follow trends. Is it because we are angered at those that decide to follow instead of leading? If everyone was a leader, what would life be like? Maybe we need followers, don't they encourage those who lead, stand behind them, and help them to believe in themselves and their ideas. So why do curse and hate these "trendy assholes." Probably because we expect more from people. :)

[Tarantism]

eh, i would say its more of a rant. i mean, if people want to follow, that is not my problem. im only worried about me. as long as i avoid following, i dont really care.

 

know what i mean?

[Guadalupe]

That is skin deep. But yes it goes even furhter than that with some, being "orginal" now isn't on a trend skin deep, but also "personality" and "lifestyle's" are a trend. What is a trend. Why do we care/complain so much about those that follow trends. Is it because we are angered at those that decide to follow instead of leading? If everyone was a leader, what would life be like? Maybe we need followers, don't they encourage those who lead, stand behind them, and help them to believe in themselves and their ideas. So why do curse and hate these "trendy assholes." Probably because we expect more from people. :)

 

 

Because, I feel like you have a lot on your mind, why not strike the iron while it’s still hot? Why not write it down on what or how you feel, your rage, etc., and send it to the Copyright Office to get it registered. I suggest a great title to go with it before you submit your work. If your work is original, you’ll get a Certificate. Then, you’ll be on your way in becoming a great writer. :)

 

:hihi:

[Drip Curl Magic]

Unfortunately, we must find our own answer, which leads to errors in proportion to our individual ignorance.

 

Unfortunately? hmmm... I dunno about that. I think we need the ignorance. Life is a balance. Without ignorance, there wouldn't be such a thing as education. Life requires diversity. Everything is a blancing act.

 

I, personally, love the ignorance.... it's all part of life. It helps keep everything existing.... well, atleast... I think it does. But who knows?:hihi:

[Drip Curl Magic]

eh, i would say its more of a rant. i mean, if people want to follow, that is not my problem. im only worried about me. as long as i avoid following, i dont really care.

 

know what i mean?

 

As different as you may want to be, it ultimately doesn't matter. We all come from the same origin... which makes us all very similair. We all think along the same basic principal guidlines. We all want to be important... and stand out... and be special.

[inside the sun]

thank you guadalupe.

[Tarantism]

As different as you may want to be, it ultimately doesn't matter. We all come from the same origin... which makes us all very similair. We all think along the same basic principal guidlines. We all want to be important... and stand out... and be special.

well, were all human, so we all have human genetic makup. that is abou tall that we have in common.

[inside the sun]

well, were all human, so we all have human genetic makup. that is abou tall that we have in common.

that and believe it or not there are many beings similiar to eachother. we're not all alike, but you can find people similiar, or people with similiar habits, personality, thinking patterns etc.. But yes, ultimately we are different

[automatic existence]

I guess I just don't see the justification for this. It is not logically possible to disprove the existence of anything; maybe we haven't found the evidence yet.

I’ll tell you where the logic is, it’s in the fact that we shouldn’t believe in anything before after it’s “proved”. That is too say; first proof, then “belief.” If you argue that it could be the other way around, well, you’d be in deep epistemological trouble! There is no need for disproving the existence of anything.

 

Nor can one prove the existence of an abstraction. You have found the "crack" in applied logic. Love, greed, value, goodness, truth, god, good taste, reason, joy, despair, morality, etc., only exist within our minds, finding occasional resonance within others. No physical or purely logical proofs can ever exist for the lives of ideas. We might try to live without considering the abstract; but, isn't our ability to do so what makes us human? Isn't our "personality" mainly born from our view of these abstract ideas (for better or worse)?

 

I think you mix two different concepts here. God and joy are both abstractions, but one of them has obvious manifestations. The same goes for the other examples you mention.

We could all recognize the manifestations of joyful behavior, therefore having proof for its existence. This method does not however prove the existence of God or values and such. (This is more complex if we go into semantics and the actual meaning of the words and how it’s possible to actually link the manifestations to the abstractions. But in a casual discussion such as this, I think we agree that a smile is a fairly evident sign of joy?) Greed has its obvious manifestations in concrete actions (i.e. not sharing). Goodness is popularly defined as the (non-existent) opposite of egoistic actions (i.e. helping others). Truth is accordance to reality (i.e. If I say it will hurt when I hit you in the face and it does, my statement was true.)

 

Abstractions isn’t things that live their own life in another dimension, they are only labels to group a number of physical and chemical manifestations together. Why do you think another person is happy? Answer: A smile, special facial pattern, tone and so on. Its function is the same as language; it helps us in everyday life. It’s very flawed, but it works. It does the job.

 

I don’t really see the problem with this, neither do I see a crack in its logic, but then again I could have missed something...

 

Unfortunately? hmmm... I dunno about that. I think we need the ignorance. Life is a balance. Without ignorance, there wouldn't be such a thing as education. Life requires diversity. Everything is a blancing act.

 

I, personally, love the ignorance.... it's all part of life. It helps keep everything existing.... well, atleast... I think it does. But who knows?:hyper:

 

I have never understood why the fact that certain evils are needed for a balance in a given system justify their existence or even makes them "good". The obvious conclusion would not be that "hey, ignorance is great since it keeps the balance", it would be "the system itself is horribly flawed, I don’t care if it’s the best possible, it’s still flawed to the extent of cruelty." If "good" needs evil to exist, then "good" isn’t very good in the first place, now is it? I might share you’re sentiment that evils such as ignorance, pain, misery, death and tragedy is entertaining (at least if it happens to others) but I still don’t think that justifies there existence though.

[automatic existence]

I wrote a separate post on this since the subject is quite different (and I didn’t want the post to seem to long.)

 

As different as you may want to be, it ultimately doesn't matter. We all come from the same origin... which makes us all very similair. We all think along the same basic principal guidlines. We all want to be important... and stand out... and be special.

 

well, were all human, so we all have human genetic makup. that is abou tall that we have in common.

 

that and believe it or not there are many beings similiar to eachother. we're not all alike, but you can find people similiar, or people with similiar habits, personality, thinking patterns etc.. But yes, ultimately we are different

 

There’s a bit of truth in all of this but here’s my opinion:

Humans are like ants. Don’t you think all antz look alike? I sure do, but I am also aware that none of them is (exactly) alike. We humans are completely identical in all defining features. BUT, like antz, we are different in regard to minor details. This might seem farfetched to all you who cling to statements like "were all unique" and similar self-delusions. Think of it this way; if you tell the ant that it looks like all the others, it would feel offended, just as you do. So once more it’s only our internal bias that keeps us from realizing it.

[inside the sun]

Amen