"who were the men moses and jesus"

[William Honey]

Hello Intelligent Group: I keep a very open mind!

 

If you might have any information about Moses I would like to hear about

it, okay

[Turtle]

...

Their are no historical records on Jesus, so no historical research can be done. All we have are the prophets and what they wrote about who Jesus was. I have researched the prophets for twenty years and what they wrote about who Jesus was. ...

 

Pish posh! We only know the J-man from historical records for one thing, and for another, the Bible isn't the only historical source. We have the so-called gnostic Gospels, such as this one: >> The Gospel of Mary Magdalene

 

General article: >> Gnostic Gospels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

You can find some threads here on the topic by using our search function. No historical records!? :D That's all I got. ;) :)

[William Honey]

Historical records are written facts that can be varified.

[Turtle]

:D You said in your OP:

Hello Intelligent Group: I keep a very open mind, study and research all the facts, then try to solve mysteries.

 

I have done hundreds of hours of research trying to solve the mystery of who Moses and Jesus were in The Holy Bible. ...

 

I pointed out other sources of the same ilk as the Bible. Have you read them too is what I'm getting at. ;)

 

Don't get me wrong, I think both figures were skillful stage magicians and scam artists. Look at me; I can turn my stick into a snake! You want next door version? Can you say David Blaine? Oh; that's right. It's Abe we're after now? You-can-fool-some-of-the people-some-of-the-time Abe?

 

Anyway, by all means I'd love to hear what you have cooked up out of all of it that no one else yet has. :)

[pgrmdave]

Why trust the words of government officials (who, as far as I know, are people...though there has been much debate about this over the years) but not the words of another? At least with the words of the other we know who wrote them, and it's not relegated to a mysterious "government".

 

Note that I trust government documents as well, but it's up to you to make the case that they are more trustworthy than the written word of another.

[modest]

Hello Intelligent Group: I keep a very open mind, study and research all the facts, then try to solve mysteries.

 

I also enjoy the mystery of the past :)

 

maybe some of my info will help you to solve it.

 

I think it's important for people to know that the vast majority of the info you give is false. Most of what you write is based on a fictional novel and some of it just appears mistaken.

 

The closest I have come to Moses is a man by the name of "The Egyptian" His real name was Doctor Sinaway.

 

Sinaway is spelled "Sinuhe". He is the protagonist of a story that was written in ancient Egypt about 2000 BC. A retelling is here. It is currently unknown by scholars if the story of Sinuhe is complete fiction or if it refers to a real person and real events. It seems reasonable to me that Sinuhe was at least a real person.

 

However, this is not the source of your information. you are informed by: The Egyptian, a novel of fiction by Mika Waltari and a movie of the same name. Sinuhe is the protagonist of Walteri's novel, but shares little else with the historical figure of 2000 BC. For example:

 

Moses was a doctor. Doctor Sinaway was the greatest surgeon in all the world and lived in Egypt.

 

Sinuhe was not a doctor - he was a servant of the Pharaoh's palace (neither was Moses a doctor in the bible incidentally).

 

Yes he came in a basket on the Nile river just like the story of Moses.

 

This is true of the movie, but in the Story of Sinuhe this is not the case.

 

In his attempt to become a god Amen the fourth took all the slaves of Egypt up to his multi million dollar city. He payed them in gold to worship him.

 

Nope.

 

Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) did not want people to worship him. He wanted people to worship Aton.

 

Can you please provide some sources or references for the info you give. Doing so is a requirement of the site rules. I find it very troubling that you say you've spent hours studying this when it appears more likely to be the retelling of a movie you saw.

 

~modest

[William Honey]

The Holy Bible, The History Channel, The Internet, The series Bible Truths, the series

"The Great Egyptians" are where a lot of my research has be done.

 

I did give references of the movie "The Egyptian" which

at the end of the movie they did say this was a true story that did happen. If the people who made the movie lied, that is not my fault.

[William Honey]

Hello Turtle: I read the part you wrote about a stick being turned into a snake.

Actually it was a rod that turned into a serpent

[modest]

Your greatest asset to solving any mystery is take an open mind and not believe things that have been written

 

You also might take care not to believe everything you see on TV.

 

I did give references of The History Channel and also the movie "The Egyptian" which at the end of the movie they did say this was a true story that did happen. If the people who made the movie lied, that is not my fault.

 

The words at the end of the movie are:

 

"These things happened thirteen centuries before the birth of Jesus Christ"

 

which isn't so much a lie - it refers to Akhenaten trying to convert Egypt to monotheism, which is true. It does not refer to the character of Sinuhe which lived (possibly lived) 650 years before Akhenaten - clearly dramatic license. If you were capable, you could follow the links in my last post, such as this: story of Sinuhe and it would help you tell the difference between fact and fiction.

 

~modest

[William Honey]

Modest:

 

The movie plainly showed Sinuhe as the doctor of Akhenaten (Amen Hotempt the fourth)

[modest]

Modest:

 

The movie plainly showed Sinuhe as the doctor of Akhenaten (Amen Hotempt the fourth)

 

Yes William, I know.

 

Why would the movie which said it happened thirteen centuries before the birth of Chirst make Sinuhe the doctor of Amen if in fact he lived years before, that makes no sense??

 

It's just a movie and a novel... They use Dramatic License. Sinuhe is written in as a character to narrate the story. There wasn't really a royal physician name Sinuhe.

 

Either Sinuhe was the doctor of Amen or they showed him to be and if he was not then the movie was a lie.

 

The movie (and the novel) were fiction - that doesn't mean it's trying to lie to you. It is assumed that people would understand some aspects of the story are historically true while others are dramatic license. This is normal. Every historical drama you've ever seen or read is like this.

 

Doctor Sinuhe, the hero of the novel is the royal physician, who tells the story in exile after Akhenaten's fall and death. The main character of the novel is named after that of an ancient Egyptian text commonly known as the Story of Sinuhe, dating from as early as the 12th dynasty, thus earlier than the Akhenaten?s times.

 

Resumo de The Egyptian - Mika Waltari

 

~modest

EDIT: You know what would be fun... is if you researched the real story of Sinuhe and compared it to the exodus. As I understand, there are parallels.

[William Honey]

Yes William, I know.

Doctor Sinuhe, the hero of the novel is the royal physician, who tells the story in exile after Akhenaten's fall and death. The main character of the novel is named after that of an ancient Egyptian text commonly known as the Story of Sinuhe, dating from as early as the 12th dynasty, thus earlier than the Akhenaten?s times.

 

Hello Modest: According to the biography "The Great Egyptians" Akhenaten's

toom was never found. Then they reported that it could be that toom number

55 could have been Akenaten that was just recently found. The movie showed

that Sinuhe may have given Akenaten an antedote to offset the poison. I don't really know how Akenaten died, do you ??? It seems to me that he was

poisoned, given an antedote and his burial was faked. Then somebody moved

his toom as his body was not found in his burial place ??? Do you know if

his burial was a fake and that he did not die then ??? It seems according to

the reports from The Great Egyptians that he did not die then. At least if

he did die then their was no coffin as they continued to look for the coffin.

 

They still don't know if they have found the right coffin in toom 55. This

seems to be a mystery of when and how Akenaten died and when he died ??

 

Do you know when and how Akenaten died

[modest]

Hello Modest: According to the biography "The Great Egyptians" Akhenaten's

toom was never found.

According to Wikipedia's article on the Royal Tomb of Akhenaten, his original tomb is known. He wished to be buried to the east of the Nile (with the rising sun) rather than with the setting sun to the west of the Nile which would have been normal. For this reason, his original tomb was not in the Valley of the Kings, but in the Royal Wadi in Amarna.

 

However, some years after Akhenaten was buried, his sarcophagus was destroyed and it is suspected that his body was moved to the Valley of the Kings. Where exactly his body was moved is not known for sure - so you might say his "second" tomb is unknown. This is probably what the biography you mention means.

 

Then they reported that it could be that toom number

55 could have been Akenaten that was just recently found.

It is believed by many Egyptologists that KV55 is the final resting place of Akhenaten and the mummy found there is him. If this is the case then we do know where in the Valley of the Kings Akhenaten was moved - but this is not a certainty.

 

There's a good site on KV55 here: Mystery of the Mummy from KV55 - The Plateau - Official Website of Dr. Zahi Hawass

 

The movie showed

that Sinuhe may have given Akenaten an antedote to offset the poison. I don't really know how Akenaten died, do you ??? It seems to me that he was

poisoned, given an antedote and his burial was faked. Then somebody moved

his toom as his body was not found in his burial place ??? Do you know if

his burial was a fake and that he did not die then ???

 

I don't believe anyone knows how Akenaten died. Because of his push for monotheism and the worship of Aten, all records of his rule were later intentionally destroyed. His name was excised from the official list of pharaohs, and his temples were deconstructed. Later pharaohs literally tried to erase the story of Akenaten from Egypt. A lot of what is known about him comes from Tutankhamun's (Akenaten's son's) intact tomb. Saying how or why he died might be speculation.

 

Do you know when and how Akenaten died

As far as when he died - according to Wiki, he died in year 17 of his rule which is estimated to be 1334 or 1336 BC.

 

~modest

[William Honey]

According to Wikipedia's article on the Royal Tomb of Akhenaten, his original tomb is known. He wished to be buried to the east of the Nile (with the rising sun) rather than with the setting sun to the west of the Nile which would have been normal. For this reason, his original tomb was not in the Valley of the Kings, but in the Royal Wadi in Amarna.

 

However, some years after Akhenaten was buried, his sarcophagus was destroyed and it is suspected that his body was moved to the Valley of the Kings. Where exactly his body was moved is not known for sure - so you might say his "second" tomb is unknown. This is probably what the biography you mention means.

 

 

It is believed by many Egyptologists that KV55 is the final resting place of Akhenaten and the mummy found there is him. If this is the case then we do know where in the Valley of the Kings Akhenaten was moved - but this is not a certainty.

 

There's a good site on KV55 here: Mystery of the Mummy from KV55 - The Plateau - Official Website of Dr. Zahi Hawass

 

 

 

I don't believe anyone knows how Akenaten died. Because of his push for monotheism and the worship of Aten, all records of his rule were later intentionally destroyed. His name was excised from the official list of pharaohs, and his temples were deconstructed. Later pharaohs literally tried to erase the story of Akenaten from Egypt. A lot of what is known about him comes from Tutankhamun's (Akenaten's son's) intact tomb. Saying how or why he died might be speculation.

 

 

As far as when he died - according to Wiki, he died in year 17 of his rule which is estimated to be 1334 or 1336 BC.

 

~modest

 

Is it possible that Akenaten escaped the threat to kill him and went underground to stay the leader of the slaves he brought to his city?

 

This could be the answer to why his body was not in the burial place

that he built in his city. Somehow I do believe that Akenaten survived

the threat of death and hid out in his city. Akenaten is the founder of

the one God religion. His father Amen Hotempt the third was called the living god of Egypt. Since a lot of religion comes out of Egypt is it possible that

when prayer is ended with the word Amen that it is a tribute to Amen Hotempt the third as the living god of Egypt. Amen the third also believed

that their was only one god, but never came out as such, as he was being

worshipped by his people. Later Akenaten followed through with the one

god theory and was hated by the priest. He fired all the priest and closed

all the churches and the priest were behind the threat to kill him.

 

The biography "The Great Egyptians" showed Akenaten at his city and paying

all the slaves in gold to worship him. I think that he also wanted to be known

as The Living god of Egypt just like his father Amen the third was known.

At any rate he did change history with his one god theory and it is still being

followed today. Some of his writings that were found in caves seem to appear in the bible or at least were very similar.

 

I think that Akenaten's mother was a very powerful woman. She was the

wife of Amen Hotempt the third. It seems that she was running Egypt while

Akenaten was off doing religion. She seemed to be behind some murders

after Akenaten left the scene so she could keep the power of the throne.

Akenaten's wife strangely disappeared after Akenaten's death. Then Akenaten's son Tootankamon (King Tut) also died at age 18. Then tootankamon's wife air to the throne also died. Amen Hotempt the third's

wife remained in power. Could have all these people have died at the hand

of Amen Hotempt the third's wife ??? Certainly looks that way. If so she

was an evil and wicked woman out to keep the power of the throne.

 

This mystery will go on as their are not enough clues to solve it ???

 

Better to be an average person and live than to have a throne and be killed

by people wanting power.

 

Thank you Modest for your input, this mystery just got my attention.

[modest]

Wild speculation I'm afraid.

 

Is it possible that Akenaten escaped the threat to kill him...

We can speculate that there was a thread against Akhenaten - but how would we know? If there was such a threat, how would we know he did or did not escape it?

and went underground to stay the leader of the slaves he brought to his city?

He brought slaves to Amarna? How do we know?

This could be the answer to why his body was not in the burial place that he built in his city.

It is not abnormal that Akhenaten was not in his tomb. That is not a mystery. Royal mummies were often moved around by priests for a whole host of reasons such as avoiding tomb robbery. Royal caches of as many as 40 mummies have been found with Royal mummies that had been moved around all over the place.

 

We know that Amarna was abandoned not too long after Akhenaten died. It would be normal to assume they took his body when the royal court moved back to Thebes. His smashed-up sarcophagus tells the story pretty well. They took him out by force and had no love for the guy when they did it.

His father Amen Hotempt the third was called the living god of Egypt.

All Egyptian pharaohs were considered (and worshiped as) living gods.

Since a lot of religion comes out of Egypt is it possible that when prayer is ended with the word Amen that it is a tribute to Amen Hotempt the third as the living god of Egypt.

The word Amen comes from Hebrew where it means "let it be". It comes from the root Hebrew verb "Aman" which means to trust or to believe. The word 'Amen' coming from a root Hebrew verb shows quite clearly that it doesn't come from an Egyptian person or god.

The biography "The Great Egyptians" showed Akenaten at his city and paying all the slaves in gold to worship him.

I can't find a reference anywhere saying anything about Akhenaten paying slaves to worship him.

Akenaten's wife strangely disappeared after Akenaten's death. Then Akenaten's son Tootankamon (King Tut) also died at age 18. Then tootankamon's wife air to the throne also died. Amen Hotempt the third'swife remained in power. Could have all these people have died at the handof Amen Hotempt the third's wife ???

 

Certainly looks that way.

This is just exhausting to reply to. There is no evidence that any of these people (with the small possible exception of Tutankhamun) were murdered - and certainly no evidence that Tiye killed them all.

 

~modest

[William Honey]

Wild speculation I'm afraid.

 

 

We can speculate that there was a thread against Akhenaten - but how would we know? If there was such a threat, how would we know he did or did not escape it?

 

He brought slaves to Amarna? How do we know?

 

It is not abnormal that Akhenaten was not in his tomb. That is not a mystery. Royal mummies were often moved around by priests for a whole host of reasons such as avoiding tomb robbery. Royal caches of as many as 40 mummies have been found with Royal mummies that had been moved around all over the place.

 

We know that Amarna was abandoned not too long after Akhenaten died. It would be normal to assume they took his body when the royal court moved back to Thebes. His smashed-up sarcophagus tells the story pretty well. They took him out by force and had no love for the guy when they did it.

 

All Egyptian pharaohs were considered (and worshiped as) living gods.

 

The word Amen comes from Hebrew where it means "let it be". It comes from the root Hebrew verb "Aman" which means to trust or to believe. The word 'Amen' coming from a root Hebrew verb shows quite clearly that it doesn't come from an Egyptian person or god.

 

I can't find a reference anywhere saying anything about Akhenaten paying slaves to worship him.

 

This is just exhausting to reply to. There is no evidence that any of these people (with the small possible exception of Tutankhamun) were murdered - and certainly no evidence that Tiye killed them all.

 

~modest

 

Thank you much Modest for you research and input.

 

William

[pamela]

William,

you have exhausted Modest, who has very dilligently sought to inform you with the historical facts.Why don't you put all of your energy and imagination into designing a time travel machine.You could travel there and back again and reveal to all of us, the lost facts behind your mysteries.Hey, and while your there, grab those Ten Commandments you are always referring to-I would like to take a peak at them