"who were the men moses and jesus"

[modest]

William, I see you edited away your last post, but you brought up some interesting things that I'd like to respond to if that's OK.

 

Thank you much Modest for you research and input.

You are very welcome.

In the biography of Egyptian Pharoes "The Great Egyptians" they showed

all the slaves leaving Egypt to go to Amarna.

Amarna is in Egypt.

They did the life story of Akhenaten and showed his city as it would have looked. If this was not

researched fact, why would they present it as such ?? I took it to be researched fact as they showed all the slaves worshiping Akhenaten.

 

I didn’t see the program you’re talking about. So, it’s difficult for me to say either if it’s wrong about certain things or if you are perhaps misinterpreting certain things. As far as slaves worshiping Akhenaten - I'm sure there were slaves (as well as skilled craftsmen and a whole assortment of other people) who moved to Amarna during and after its construction who worshiped Akhenaten. Like I said, Pharaohs were considered divine in ancient Egypt.

 

Akhenaten was a great believer in The Ten Commandments. They showed him with Ten Commandments jewelry all over

him and hanging around his neck. He wore ten commandments braclets on both arms.

 

I believe you’re describing the costume of an actor on the 1998 TLC program "Great Egyptians". Looking the program up on Amazon.com I find this review:

 

Episode 4... This is Bob Brier at his worst attempt at sensationalism when it comes to ancient Egypt. This episode is a shameless plug for his book about the "murder of king tut". Brier in this episode does his best to convince the viewer that King Tutankhamon was murdered by his successor, the Pharaoh Eye. Mostly based on conjecture with very little fact, this episode should not have been included, in my opinion.

I encourage you to pursue research with less conjecture and sensationalism, but with more emphasis on facts.

 

Notice that his name ends with the word ten...Akhena...ten.

Akhenaten lived thousands of years before English was a language. Any comparison between the sound of the last syllable of his name and the English pronunciation of “ten” cannot be significant. It would be like me comparing the last syllable of the name “Abra-ham” to a country baked ham and concluding that Abraham loved eating pork.

 

The truth is much less sensational. The name “Akhenaten” ends in -aten because his name means “Effective spirit of Aten”

 

The coffin number 55 adds up to ten.

Once again, KV-55 was named in modern times. Naming the tombs KV-1, KV-2, etc. was started by John Gardiner Wilkinson in the mid 1800’s. “KV” stands for King’s Valley and the number signifies the order they were named and/or discovered.

 

Obviously, the circumstances that led to the naming of KV-55 has nothing to do with the 10 commandments. If you truly want to study these things then I’m on board. I’m fascinated by ancient Egypt and there are a great number of parallels and connections to be found between Egypt and Judaism of that time. But, what you’re describing is baseless (even for a conspiracy theory). Keep in mind, this is a science website.

 

As I studied the life of Akhenaten, I could not understand why he would

worship the sun disk ??? Am I wrong in thinking that Akhenaten worshiped the sun disk ?? The carvings on the walls in Egypt show Akhenaten with

what appeared to be the sun shining down on him and his family. Were those the sun rays in the carvings ??

Yes, they were sun rays. Aten was seen as the energy that gives the sun it’s power - originally an aspect of Ra who was the Egyptian sun god. Aten was the “life-giving force of light”. The full name of the god translates into: “The Rahorus who rejoices in the horizon, in his/her Name of the Light which is seen in the sun disc.”. So, Aten is the sun disc, and more than that - Aten is the light of the sun and the energy that gives the sun disc its light.

Tutankamon took the throne at Akhenaten's death.

This is not known for sure. The possibilities of who immediately succeeded Akhenaten include: Smenkhkare, Neferneferuaten, or Tutankhamun.

Then he was murdered at age 18.

Again, it is complete speculation that Tutankhamun was murdered. The best current evidence from CT scans of his mummy done in 2005 suggests he died from gangrene following a broken leg. Everyone involved in the 2005 scans agreed that there was no evidence of murder. People like Bob Brier created these big, elaborate stories about his intriguing murder. That sells books and makes for good TV, but it's all based on assumptions. The assumption that King Tut was murdered is being refuted more and more these days.

Then Tutankamon's wife was air to the throne.

Following his death, there was a power vacuum.

She sent for a husband from another country and he was killed on the way to her.

While there is some scholarly debate regarding the author of the Hittite letters, I agree with you that it was most likely Ankhesenamen. She says in the letter that she would be afraid taking someone from her own court to be her husband.

The man Eye was said to be involved in his death.

While this is complete speculation with no supporting evidence - it would make sense. Ay certainly had motive in killing the foreign prince.

Then Eye married Tutankamon's wife and then she disappeared and Eye took the throne.

There is a big difference between having no further historical information regarding someone and saying they “disappeared”. We are talking about people who lived more than three thousand years ago. Just because nobody has found the mummy of Ankhesenamen or a description of how she died doesn’t mean there was foul play and it doesn't mean she disappeared. She may have died from some disease (plague was prevalent during the Amarna period) or perhaps complications in childbirth or perhaps she even took her own life. The historical record is silent on the subject, so we just don’t know.

All this happened in a very short time and the grandmother was still in power. Makes you think that Amen Hotemp the thirds wife was involved with Eye and she was the real power in Egypt being the wife of Amen the third ???

This is incorrect. Egyptologists will tell you that Amenhotep III’s wife (Tiye - The matriarch of the Amarna family) most likely died in year 12 of Akehenaten’s rule (1338 BC). If this is indeed the case then she could have no involvement with anything you mention above (as she was dead at the time).

 

~modest

[William Honey]

Thank you much Mr. Modest, like you say truth is hard to come by and with all the

people looking to make money on this, you don't know who to believe. You did answer

a lot of my questions and did clear some things up for me. I took down all my questions,

as I did not want to bother you.

 

Thanks again Modest

 

William

[litespeed]

Originally Posted by William Honey - "Their are no historical records on Jesus, so no historical research can be done."

 

This is like saying there are no historical records of pre-columbian meso-american rullers. You might not believe everything that is written in the hyroglyphs about Ten Smoke Jaguar http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/mayans.php but we can be rather confident there was such a person, and deduce much else about the man from these scant records.

 

Paul of Tarsus is no mythhical person, and he wrote prolifically in perfectly contempory Greek, not obscure hyrogliphs, about Jesus of Nazareth. Some of which he seemes to have learned from Jesus's own brother whom Paul claims to have known personally, and with whom he was at odds from time to time

 

I believe much of what we know about MANY historical figures has been gleaned from letters by persons of lesser stature and integrity then Paul of Tarsus.

[HydrogenBond]

One thing we need to realize about Jesus, his movement was not welcome by the Romans. It was a crime punishable by death. It is doubtful one could find many accounts, since so much effort was spent to nip this religion in the bud. The first lasting lasting writings appeared about a century later.

 

The most published book in the history of the world is the bible, with over 6 billion served. The first book ever printed by a printing press was also the bible. This is where religion and one of the most important innovations in history merged at the same time; religion and technology. The bible has been on the best seller list for over 500 years.

[Turtle]

One thing we need to realize about Jesus, his movement was not welcome by the Romans. It was a crime punishable by death. It is doubtful one could find many accounts, since so much effort was spent to nip this religion in the bud. The first lasting lasting writings appeared about a century later.

 

The most published book in the history of the world is the bible, with over 6 billion served. The first book ever printed by a printing press was also the bible. This is where religion and one of the most important innovations in history merged at the same time; religion and technology. The bible has been on the best seller list for over 500 years.

 

No; the first printing press was Chineese and they printed newspapers on it. One thing you need to realize is that fact checking is de rigueur here.

 

By 593 A.D., the first printing press was invented in China, and the first printed newspaper was available in Beijing in 700 A.D. It was a woodblock printing. And the Tianemmen scrolls, the earliest known complete woodblock printed book with illustrations was printed in China in 868 A.D. Although movable type was developed in China about 200 years later, it did not supersede the use of block printing.

Printing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Jesus was a clever stage magician and con man, as was Moses. (Oh...in my humble opinion. :santa: ) Oh looky! A whole book on the topic! :)

Amazon Online Reader : Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1569751552/ref=sib_dp_ptu#reader-link

[litespeed]

HB - You wrote: "The first lasting lasting writings appeared about a century later. ".

 

A number of New Testament and other Christian writings date from about the mid first century. For instance, St. Paul was an adult when he became a Christian and his death is generally listed as 67CE.

 

The ever-ready Wikipedia is a good enough place to start on text dating and other matters concerning the New Testament.

 

New Testament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[William Honey]

Originally Posted by William Honey - "Their are no historical records on Jesus, so no historical research can be done."

 

This is like saying there are no historical records of pre-columbian meso-american rullers. You might not believe everything that is written in the hyroglyphs about Ten Smoke Jaguar Civilization III: The Mayans - CivFanatics but we can be rather confident there was such a person, and deduce much else about the man from these scant records.

 

Paul of Tarsus is no mythhical person, and he wrote prolifically in perfectly contempory Greek, not obscure hyrogliphs, about Jesus of Nazareth. Some of which he seemes to have learned from Jesus's own brother whom Paul claims to have known personally, and with whom he was at odds from time to time

 

I believe much of what we know about MANY historical figures has been gleaned from letters by persons of lesser stature and integrity then Paul of Tarsus.

 

Hello Litespeed, please tell me where I can find State and City historical records of

Jesus and Paul.

 

William

[litespeed]

WH - Why do you dissmiss St. Paul so easily in these matters? And do you really believe there was no such person as Jesus?

[Turtle]

We have this whole thread on the topic of Jesus's marriage: >> Was Jebus Married!?

 

Lot's of links, including information on the Gnostic Gospels. ...................;)

[litespeed]

Turtle

 

Thanks for the info, I just might check them out. I understand the gnostics, and share many of their concerns. However, some of the more important ones were unapologetically dishonest. And others simply 'philosophized' up a new religion.

 

IMHO, this self referential phylosophizing is how we got the Roman Catholic church in the first place. I have studied Christianity quite a lot, but reject almost anything that was written about it after the year 165 as helpful. Thats about the time Polycarp was martyrd. After that time none of the Apostles, or people who knew the Apostles, were alive anymore.

 

Subsequently we have endless 'philosophers' with nothing better to do then ponder up their own reflections. These reflections then become the next 'corpus' upon which subsequent philosophers then repeat the process. Right down to Martin Luther and HIS successors.

 

The best historical example is selling indulgences to get select individuals out of Purgatory. Who the hell phylosophized up that abomination. Protestants have pre-destination, pre-determination, and raptures. I would rather spend the afternoon 'speaking in tonques' with first century Jesus People. I am confident their communal meal would be more satisfying both theologically and gastronomicaly then what we get from the latest iteration of phylosophers..

 

Incidentally, the 'marriage of Jesus' fits very nicely into this rediculous millenia old tradition of speculation disquissed as theological study. I might go there just to pull their chains.

[litespeed]

Incidentally, the Gnostics were first rate phylosopher but horrid theologans. Their idea the Old Testament God of torture and mass murder does not require much in the way of speculation. However, their idea that Christ did not suffer on the cross, but watched it unfold from a nearby location is all you need to know about their veracity regarding the Christian Writings of the era.

 

They just made it up. Along with a scandalous creation of new Gospels and other spurious litterature to support their beliefs. IMHO, the creation of these documents simply attests to phylosophical pondering gone mad. Right up to and including "The Ends Justifies The Means'.

 

Very modern, actually.

[litespeed]

Don't get me wrong. I believe The Roman Catholic Church was the best thing that ever happened to Wester Civilization. Without it there would BE no Western Civilization. If you like indoor plumbing and the internet, really, you have no choice but to agree. Think Battle of Tours, and Second Investiture of Vienna, and substitute pre-colonial Cairo or Damascus for London.