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[Nitack]

YouTube - Burning Salt Water! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_vjQgCvISU

[Turtle]

YouTube - Burning Salt Water!

 

Uhmmm...that's cool and everything, but there is far more energy being used to generate the radio waves than the burning salt water is releasing. While this may have small scale specific applications where efficiency isn't important, this is no fuel source any more than the inumerable claims out there of running internal combustion engines on water. If it looks too good to be true, it is. :phones: :phones:

[Nitack]

Uhmmm...that's cool and everything, but there is far more energy being used to generate the radio waves than the burning salt water is releasing. While this may have small scale specific applications where efficiency isn't important, this is no fuel source any more than the inumerable claims out there of running internal combustion engines on water. If it looks too good to be true, it is. :hihi: :phones:

 

I never claimed that it could violate the laws of thermodynamics. :D I just think it is fricking cool! :phones:

 

How about this though... The main issue we have with the hydrogen economy is the lack of an efficient way to separate the constituent atoms in water. This process causes the oxygen and hydrogen to split, what if it is more efficient than electrolysis?

[Turtle]

I never claimed that it could violate the laws of thermodynamics. :hihi: I just think it is fricking cool! :phones:

 

How about this though... The main issue we have with the hydrogen economy is the lack of an efficient way to separate the constituent atoms in water. This process causes the oxygen and hydrogen to split, what if it is more efficient than electrolysis?

 

If it was more efficient, that would be dandy, but given all the heat losses in the radio equipment I don't see it as likely. This guys process is electrolysis. :phones:

[Nitack]

If it was more efficient, that would be dandy, but given all the heat losses in the radio equipment I don't see it as likely. This guys process is electrolysis. :phones:

 

His process only uses radio waves, electrolysis by definition requires that an electric current be passed through the water you are separating. Maybe splitting hairs, but radio waves ≠ electrical current. Different forms of energy.

[Turtle]

His process only uses radio waves, electrolysis by definition requires that an electric current be passed through the water you are separating. Maybe splitting hairs, but radio waves ≠ electrical current. Different forms of energy.

 

Point well taken. :D :phones: Nonetheless, he is putting in more energy than he is getting out, as all such schemes must do. The Devil always gets his due. :hihi: :phones:

[Nitack]

Point well taken. :D Nonetheless, he is putting in more energy than he is getting out, as all such schemes must do. The Devil always gets his due. :evil: :phones:

 

Ah, but how much more is he putting in, that is the relevant question. :phones:

 

Also, it only works with salt water, what is the role of the salt in the process?:hihi:

[Turtle]

Ah, but how much more is he putting in, that is the relevant question. :phones:

 

Also, it only works with salt water, what is the role of the salt in the process?:hihi:

 

Judging by size of his equipment, I'd say a lot more. :hihi:

 

Not sure on the salt, but I'm guessing it acts as a conductor just as in 'standard' electrolysis. :D From my own experiments using salt in the electrolyte, there is a lot of gunge left behind. Granted much of it comes from the electrodes which his system lacks, but I'd like to see a trial where the vial is run dry & examine what's left.

 

There is no end of Hydrogen-themed videos at YouTube; some great, some not so much. :evil: It's all misguided in my view, insofar as they mean to fuel vehicles with the gas. With electric cars using capacitors instead of batteries, it is a waste to use electricity to make Hydrogen to put in a fuel cell or tank.

 

What I'd like to see on YouTube from these folks is the bloopers when things go wrong. :phones:

[Nitack]

Judging by size of his equipment, I'd say a lot more. :evil:

 

Does the size of the equipment you use correlate to energy requirements?

 

Not sure on the salt, but I'm guessing it acts as a conductor just as in 'standard' electrolysis. :phones: From my own experiments using salt in the electrolyte, there is a lot of gunge left behind. Granted much of it comes from the electrodes which his system lacks, but I'd like to see a trial where the vial is run dry & examine what's left.

 

There is no end of Hydrogen-themed videos at YouTube; some great, some not so much. :hihi: It's all misguided in my view, insofar as they mean to fuel vehicles with the gas. With electric cars using capacitors instead of batteries, it is a waste to use electricity to make Hydrogen to put in a fuel cell or tank.

 

I think you are actually missing a wonderful opportunity that hydrogen affords. What is the main argument against 100% solar energy? It only works half of the time because the sun goes down. However, if you are able to produce enough electricity to account for all of your needs (day and night) during those sunny hours, you can use that excess electricity to split hydrogen out of water to be used when the sun is not out. Hydrogen offers the opportunity to store your solar energy with out the need for expensive (not to mention toxic) batteries.

 

What I'd like to see on YouTube from these folks is the bloopers when things go wrong. :phones: :D

 

I would pay to see that

[modest]

I don't think that's a hydrogen flame. The color of the flame is yellow - exactly what you'd expect burning sodium metal to look like. Hydrogen burns clear. The fact that it needs salt would support that something is happening with the sodium.

 

That's really interesting. Would anyone mind if I split this into the chemistry forum?

 

~modest

[Turtle]

Does the size of the equipment you use correlate to energy requirements?

 

Yes, generally that's the way it works.

 

 

I would pay to see that :hihi:

 

:D Gotta light? :phones:

I think you are actually missing a wonderful opportunity that hydrogen affords. What is the main argument against 100% solar energy? It only works half of the time because the sun goes down. However, if you are able to produce enough electricity to account for all of your needs (day and night) during those sunny hours, you can use that excess electricity to split hydrogen out of water to be used when the sun is not out. Hydrogen offers the opportunity to store your solar energy with out the need for expensive (not to mention toxic) batteries.

 

 

I was coming back to clarify that what Dr. Bomb there in the video is making is not Hydrogen, but a mix of Hydrogen & Oxygen often called HhO or Brown's gas. I dare him to compress it!

 

As to storing solar electricity, I again think it is capacitors and not batteries that will solve the problem. :phones: Hydrogen is dandy rocket fuel, but I see way more problems than benefits trying to make it work as an everyday fuel. For one thing, unlike other compressed gases such as propane, Hydrogen is corrosive and I expect that if anyone uses it very long that the associated equipment will rapidly fail. Storage tanks, hoses, nozzles, engines...the whole kit-n-kaboodle. No Sir...the Hydrogen fuel meme is as trendy as YouTube. :evil: :hihi:

[Turtle]

YouTube - Burning Salt Water!

 

Another thing! :doh: As if. :doh: In the video, the inventor, Mr. I. B. A. Chucklehead sticks his hand in the radio 'beam' and claims it does no damage. I dare him to leave it in very long, or better yet subject some other parts of his anatomy to the field for any but a short, short time. :hihi: If his device disassociates Hydrogen & Oxygen atoms from salt water in a vial, then it's going to do exactly the same thing to salt water in the body. Let's see...we're just bags of about 70% water and we have a salinity about like ocean water. Yeah; I wouldn't stand too close to this machine either. ;)

[Nitack]

I don't think that's a hydrogen flame. The color of the flame is yellow - exactly what you'd expect burning sodium metal to look like. Hydrogen burns clear. The fact that it needs salt would support that something is happening with the sodium.

 

That's really interesting. Would anyone mind if I split this into the chemistry forum?

 

~modest

 

Go for it

[Turtle]

I don't think that's a hydrogen flame. The color of the flame is yellow - exactly what you'd expect burning sodium metal to look like. Hydrogen burns clear. The fact that it needs salt would support that something is happening with the sodium.

 

That's really interesting. Would anyone mind if I split this into the chemistry forum?

 

~modest

 

Excellent observation! :hihi:

 

Yes to the split. :doh:

 

Now to the twist. :doh: :D Since the fella is using seawater in at least one of his demonstrations, and since chlorine is 55% of seawater salt vs. sodium @ 30.6%, then oughtn't the flame burn with some green? Or maybe the other salts get deposited on the sides of the vial as the seawater is used? ;)

[modest]

Excellent observation!

 

I'm looking around blogs and whatnot and I can't find anyone saying the same. But, it does seem to me that a reasonable explanation would be the sodium vaporizing. If the radio waves are at a frequency that excited the sodium much like microwaves do water then it seems at least reasonable.

 

One thing is certain. That flame is not clear or even blue like you would expect hydrogen. Also, if it is [ce]H_2 : 0_2[/ce] then has he collected it? Why not fill up a balloon and see what's there? I can't find a claim that he's done that which seems suspicious :shrug:

 

I don't know though. I'm probably wrong about this. I haven't looked to much into it... Just read a couple blogs.

 

Now to the twist. :eek: :D Since the fella is using seawater in at least one of his demonstrations, and since chlorine is 55% of seawater salt vs. sodium @ 30.6%, then oughtn't the flame burn with some green? Or maybe the other salts get deposited on the sides of the vial as the seawater is used? :coffee_n_pc:

 

If the Na is being vaporized then I don't think we would expect any other ion in the water to do the same. Different frequencies would affect different ions.

 

Then again, this very well could just be electrolysis where the Na is being made into a catalyst somehow. But there's no electrodes :\

 

:shrug:

 

~modest

[Turtle]

I'm looking around blogs and whatnot and I can't find anyone saying the same. But, it does seem to me that a reasonable explanation would be the sodium vaporizing. If the radio waves are at a frequency that excited the sodium much like microwaves do water then it seems at least reasonable.

 

I'm counting on your specific chem knowledge, as mine generally draws a vacuum. :hihi: Knowing the frequency is important I agree. Any idea what that Sodium frequency might be theoretically? I'd like to know how the temperature varies in the test liquid.

 

One thing is certain. That flame is not clear or even blue like you would expect hydrogen. Also, if it is [ce]H_2 : 0_2[/ce] then has he collected it? Why not fill up a balloon and see what's there? I can't find a claim that he's done that which seems suspicious :shrug:

 

So obvious an observation of hidden in plain view, that I'm still dazzled by it. Not sure what you mean by 'see what's there', but to blow up a balloon you have to pressurize the collected gas and that is a bomb/fireball waiting to go off if it is HHO. :ebomb: :naughty: (It would be H_2: O_1 wouldn't it? :confused: Here's where I get wobbly. :hihi:. )

 

I don't know though. I'm probably wrong about this. I haven't looked to much into it... Just read a couple blogs.

 

If the Na is being vaporized then I don't think we would expect any other ion in the water to do the same. Different frequencies would affect different ions.

 

Then again, this very well could just be electrolysis where the Na is being made into a catalyst somehow. But there's no electrodes :

 

:shrug:

 

~modest

 

No, I think you're probably right. This is a garage experimenter on a TV report in a time when everyone is all agog about Hydrogen fuel. This is a cool effect, but 'Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do!". :phones: Noot brought up the good point that without electrodes and an electric current, this isn't technically electrolysis, but without measuring the fluid for current there's no declaring it so.

 

Isn't there a chemical calculation that gives a range of energy needed to disassociate chemical bonds? I don't have a good understanding/picture of what atoms are doing when things are in solution. :confused:

 

The game is afoot Dr. Modest!

[Nitack]

I don't think that's a hydrogen flame. The color of the flame is yellow - exactly what you'd expect burning sodium metal to look like. Hydrogen burns clear. The fact that it needs salt would support that something is happening with the sodium.

 

That's really interesting. Would anyone mind if I split this into the chemistry forum?

 

~modest

 

Check this picture out.

 

It is from the Wikipedia page for Sodium, with the caption

The flame test for sodium displays a brilliantly bright yellow emission due to the so called "sodium D-lines" at 588.9950 and 589.5924 nanometers.

Does this flame look the least bit familiar?

 

So, we have a good observation from Modest that there is a high likelihood that sodium is present in the flame. What happens when pure sodium is dropped in water?

 

2 Na + 2 H2O => 2 NaOH + H2

 

Hydrogen gas is a byproduct of the reaction. So the claim that they are burning hydrogen gas is entirely plausible, there is just a little sodium mixed in.

 

No, I think you're probably right. This is a garage experimenter on a TV report in a time when everyone is all agog about Hydrogen fuel. This is a cool effect, but 'Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do!". :applause: Noot brought up the good point that without electrodes and an electric current, this isn't technically electrolysis, but without measuring the fluid for current there's no declaring it so.

 

Did he just call me "Noot"?

 

If the Na is being vaporized then I don't think we would expect any other ion in the water to do the same. Different frequencies would affect different ions.

 

Then again, this very well could just be electrolysis where the Na is being made into a catalyst somehow. But there's no electrodes :

 

:applause:

 

~modest

 

Now I am doing a lot of wondering given the sodium observation by Modest. When a large chunk of sodium is dropped in water you get a very visible and violent reaction. You would get the same reaction, but microscopic, if NA were added atom by atom to water. Perhaps the radio waves are not loosening the H2O bond in water that the inventor speculates, but actually causing a reaction with the NaCl. :thumbs_up

 

Its been years for me since I took chemistry, but here is my rough equation:

 

NaCl + H2O + Radio Wave Frequency X => Na + HCl + H2O => NaOH + H2 + HCl

 

If the process continued to completion I think at that point where you would see a further reaction back to salt and water. NaOH is commonly known as Lye, a basic solution, and HCl is hydrocloric acid. Together they react to form water and salt.

 

It appears that this would be a never ending cycle if you kept the radio waves going, although eventually you would run out of hydrogen as it would be constantly escaping... So I managed to lose myself. Because I can't quite see what the end result is...