MySiddhi Posted July 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 No anecdotes. We want, specifically, a way to test experimentally for the existence of God. And an experiment that will not give us any ambiguous results. And an experiment that can be repeated. If you are following C1ay's argument you will notice we are referring to the theistic notions of God not of the monopantheistic attributes of God; psychic functioning would be an experimental verification of such a being's attributes. But, let's discuss how we can verify the theistic attributes. Since I am a Christian, and the only way I can personally perceive proving such a thing is to prove the stories of mythological proportion found in the bible. Now, if I can prove the theistic story line in the bible and no other theistic traditions can do so as well (such as odinism, hinduism, greek panthon) then first of all I have proven the existence of theistic gods, and further the ones that actually exist are the ones so highlighted in the bible. Does that sound reasonable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Is "InfiniteNow" allowed to call me arrogant but I am not allowed to ask said person to demonstrate comprehension of the arguments? arrogant1 : exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner <an arrogant official> 2 : proceeding from or characterized by arrogance <an arrogant reply> Perhaps you should quit exaggerating your claims in such an overbearing manner and actually support them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MySiddhi Posted July 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Absolutely not. Why can't I see him? Show him to me! Do you think God is some old man with a beard siting on some throne somewhere in the Plaedies? My proof if anything is a proof that such as god if it even exists is not the supreme being! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 And could you please tell me; What are the requirements for such a proof (to you)? Such a rigorous proof as you claim to be able to make will be irrefutable. Since I am a Christian, and the only way I can personally perceive proving such a thing is to prove the stories of mythological proportion found in the bible. Again, proving anything in the bible would only be proof of that event(s). It would not be proof of the existence of the Christian God or that such an entity caused any of those events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MySiddhi Posted July 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Same thing applies here. How can we verify this? What the hell is psychic functioning? Psychic functioning is where our mind can read/write access information on material systems across space and time. Articles and Papers - Scientific Papers - The Sense of Being Stared At - Confirmed by Simple ExperimentsArticles and Papers - Scientific Papers - Telepathy - Experimental Tests for Telephone Telepathyhttp://www.princeton.edu/%7Epear/pdfs/correlations.pdfISTPP: Crime PreventionAIR : An Assessment of the Evidence for Psychic Functioning : Jessica UttsWelcome to the William A. Tiller Foundation for New Science Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MySiddhi Posted July 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 You are a false prophet. yay for me (please don't give me a negative point warning for being a jester) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 If you are following C1ay's argument you will notice we are referring to the theistic notions of God not of the monopantheistic attributes of God; psychic functioning would be an experimental verification of such a being's attributes. I know exactly what you are referring to, and you are still ducking the question. You haven't yet defined psychic functioning, or demonstrated whether or not it is an actual phenomenon or just a fluke of the human brain. But, let's discuss how we can verify the theistic attributes. Since I am a Christian, and the only way I can personally perceive proving such a thing is to prove the stories of mythological proportion found in the bible. Ok, that's a start. But how do we find evidence that miracles and all that did actually happen? Just to let you know, there is very little to no contemporary sources that verify any of the bible's claims. Many of the stories have been shown to be ripped right out of earlier mythologies, there is no evidence whatsoever of the Exodus or any of the prophets that preceded it, and accounts of Jesus only started to come into being about a century after his alleged ascent. And, to put even more salt into the wound, many of the claims of Christianity, such as the notion of heaven and hell, were outright and explicitly invented all together. So how do you hope to reconcile all that? Now, if I can prove the theistic story line in the bible and no other theistic traditions can do so as well (such as odinism, hinduism, greek panthon) then first of all I have proven the existence of theistic gods, and further the ones that actually exist are the ones so highlighted in the bible. Wait a minute, slow down. You haven't yet showed how the other religious faiths or traditions were less valid than yours. Why don't they do it so well, especially since they use the exact same reasoning and metaphysical arguments? Does that sound reasonable? I get what you are saying, so why don't you just provide evidence now, just as you outlined and as we are demanding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MySiddhi Posted July 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Again, proving anything in the bible would only be proof of that event(s). It would not be proof of the existence of the Christian God or that such an entity caused any of those events. And what if I demonstrate there is no geological or meteorological phenomena that can explain a particular event that is claimed to be the action of the gods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overdog Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 My proof if anything is a proof that such as god if it even exists is not the supreme being! Your proof is nothing if you cannot show god is observable or refute the argument I posted. You haven't refuted the argument, and you haven't shown how god is observable. You have no credibility at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 :) Wow. This proof of god stuff is pretty powerful. I feel... :) ... enlightened. Proof of delusion, more like it. To the anecdotal evidence claim, I would like to bring into the discussion the man who mistook his wife for a hat. That should really help us to arrive closer to the root of "psychic functioning." :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MySiddhi Posted July 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 to put even more salt into the wound, many of the claims of Christianity, such as the notion of heaven and hell, were outright and explicitly invented all together. So how do you hope to reconcile all that? I have responded to everything else you said... but I just wanted to highlight real quickly that the teaching of "eternal torment in fire" is not actually found in the original text of the bible. Gehenna was the garbage dump of Jerusalem and when Yahshua said people would be thrown into it and burned and eaten by maggots the Israelites knew that he was speaking a metaphor as Gehenna was a literal place not filled with demons and burning people alive... however the bodies of dead criminals were often pitched into that garbage dump because they were viewed as unfit for burial. The concept of eternal torment in fire was invented centuries latter and the text of the bible changed so that the masses could be manipulated on fear. When we die, we are simply dead. Very scientific huh? Unless of course we are resurrected or else transfigured... as I understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Psychic functioning is where our mind can read/write access information on material systems across space and time. Articles and Papers - Scientific Papers - The Sense of Being Stared At - Confirmed by Simple ExperimentsArticles and Papers - Scientific Papers - Telepathy - Experimental Tests for Telephone Telepathyhttp://www.princeton.edu/%7Epear/pdfs/correlations.pdfISTPP: Crime PreventionAIR : An Assessment of the Evidence for Psychic Functioning : Jessica UttsWelcome to the William A. Tiller Foundation for New Science Website Ok, I took the time to look through them. Now most of the articles themselves don't really establish or verify the actual existence of such phenomenon (in fact, most of them don't seem all that supportive, or are a bit sketchy, and one is about human consciousness not psychic phenomenon), but that's for another thread. We will assume that, for the sake of argument, that the above do actually happen. In any event, you still have to prove that any of this lends support to the existence of God, so you are still back where you've started: What makes your belief more valid than the religious beliefs of others? How do we know that this isn't something else all together. Psychic or not, you still have the same problems. This is the whole point of rigorous proof; it allows you to weed out the ambiguities and all the other crap and allows you to define what it is you are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MySiddhi Posted July 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 You have no credibility at this point. False prophet and no credibility? This is awesome. lol Did I ever mention I drink human blood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 I have responded to everything else you said... but I just wanted to highlight real quickly that the teaching of "eternal torment in fire" is not actually found in the original text of the bible.... .......... The concept of eternal torment in fire was invented centuries latter and the text of the bible changed so that the masses could be manipulated on fear. I'm aware of this. But you still aren't answering my questions, especially my original one. When we die, we are simply dead. Very scientific huh? That's seems to be the current line of thought, as there is nothing to suggest that there is an afterlife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overdog Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 False prophet and no credibility? This is awesome. lol Did I ever mention I drink human blood? Now you are just babbling nonsense. I'm outa here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MySiddhi Posted July 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Ok, I took the time to look through them. Now most of the articles themselves don't really establish or verify the actual existence of such phenomenon (in fact, most of them don't seem all that supportive, or are a bit sketchy, and one is about human consciousness not psychic phenomenon), but that's for another thread. We will assume that, for the sake of argument, that the above do actually happen. In any event, you still have to prove that any of this lends support to the existence of God, so you are still back where you've started: What makes your belief more valid than the religious beliefs of others? How do we know that this isn't something else all together. Psychic or not, you still have the same problems. This is the whole point of rigorous proof; it allows you to weed out the ambiguities and all the other crap and allows you to define what it is you are looking for. Psychic functioning is a necessity for monopantheism which is my proof requirements for this thread; Consciousness being a fundamental property of reality makes a causal mechanism for mind matter interactions a necessity. Further psychic functioning is not admissible to and is mutually exclusive to materialistic (philosophic atheism) theories on reality. So, if you want to deny my proof in this thread for not having verifiable observable and model exclusive evidence you need to deny psychic functioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Oh, this just keeps getting better. :) As someone who has formally studied neuroscience for years, I can tell you that your little philosophical semantics do not prove god as anything more than a delusion, or a "psychic malfunction." Please sir, try again. Reaper 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts