Comparing Religious and Scientific beliefs on how the universe was created...Need Help Urgently!!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: rileyj

science is a changing belief. the ideas of the world and of the universe will change over time as they always have.

 

Ah yes, good ole Post Modernism! The weak attempt to minimalize Science by claiming it keeps changing all the time! That any proposition, no matter how absurd, should be given the same level of credibility as even the most well established Theory.

 

Yes, the moon still could be made of green cheese. Have you ever been there personally?

 

Ya right!

 

one idea that has endured is that of god.

 

Actually it has NOT "endured". It has changed constantly from gods/ goddesses/ any number of creatures .....

 

I will agree that thru the use of torture and murder, mono-theism, esp Christianity, has gained a strangle hold for a long time. But now that MOST of the world has forced Believers to stop killing others, non-belief is growing quickly. In fact if you seperate Catholics from Protestant Christians (as most Protestant Christians want to do in theological discussions), non-belief in a personal god is the largest single group in the world other than Catholics. They out number believers in almost every industrial country in the world, with the US being the only major exception. Here non-believers out number all religious groups other than Catholics and Methodists.

 

as i said before i don't know if there is a god or not. it is something that can niether be denied or proven.

 

"i don't know if there is a (substitute any myth) or not. it is something that can niether be denied or proven"

 

Partial list of substitutes:

 

Easter Bunny

Santa Claus

Tooth Fairy

leprechaun

UFO's

ESP

 

Back to shifting the burden of proof.

 

maybe our reality is an illusion.

 

Yes we can bury our heads in the sand with the argument to absurdity. But if we want to work in the physical world as we "know" it, there are many things which can be understood. When someone wishes to discuss these things, if they wish to introduce some particular agent (god, tooth fairy, ...) the "burden of proof" is on the person making the positive assertion that such a thing exists and should be considered in the discussion. If they are not capable of provided sufficient proof of it's existence, then there is no reason to consider it in the discussion.

 

as far as we have come from our days of swinging in trees, i still don't think we have reached the point where we are all knowing of every possible reason for the universe being. except of course for you "free thinker".

 

Ah yes, once more to the ad hominens. You make such solid support for your claims by inbsulting me. What more can I say?

[rileyj]

I was responding to your condescending insults,

where’s your proof

 

and the quotes are from Steven Hawking so I think its funny when you attempt to argue his points to be wrong.

[rileyj]

"non-belief in a personal god is the largest single group in the world other than Catholics."

 

would like to know where you got this info. and non-beliefs sound like a big group when you say it like this. but how about you compare believers to non-believers, instead of non-believers to just one group.

again please give me link to that info

[rileyj]

to Tormod

"Time Travel in Einstein's Universe" it is a good book. but it is theories just like there are theories of god.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: rileyj

"non-belief in a personal god is the largest single group in the world other than Catholics."

 

would like to know where you got this info. and non-beliefs sound like a big group when you say it like this. but how about you compare believers to non-believers, instead of non-believers to just one group.

 

again please give me link to that info

 

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/xx.html

 

There are many sites with various info. And catagorizie religious beliefs is difficult for a large number of reasons. Ther is also some disagreement as to religious belief structure. But from the CIA World Fact Book. I do see that the statfs have changed some from the last time I validated this. Catholicism has dropped, from the 24.2% previous stat to 17.33%. And Muslems have moved up dramatically, from single digit to 19.6% This makes Muslem's a bigger group than Catholics!

 

It shows Non-religious and Atheists (last survey it was non-believers; Atheists and Agnostics, they changed the catagory, but no problem) and add to this Buddhists (as they do not believe in a personal god) and you have 20.85% of the world pop does not believe in a personal god. It is actually slightly higher, but they do not break out some of the "Other" religions like others had. Such as Pantheism which also lacks a personal god beleif.

 

So I guess I have to apologize for being wrong again. Based on my original statement

 

 

In fact if you seperate Catholics from Protestant Christians (as most Protestant Christians want to do in theological discussions), non-belief in a personal god is the largest single group in the world other than Catholics.

 

So based on this more current version. Catholics DROP to 3rd!

 

Those lacking a personal god 20.85%

Muslems 19.6%

Catholic 17.33%

Other Christian 15.46%

 

Thus I have to correct my statement.

 

"In fact if you seperate Catholics from Protestant Christians (as most Protestant Christians want to do in theological discussions), non-belief in a personal god is the largest single group in the world. "[/size]

 

Sorry for the mistake. Glad to now be in the MAJORITY![/size]

[Tim_Lou]

believe in some "god" is actually the largest lol.

almost = to 100%-20.85%

 

lol.........

cant believe so many people believe in god.

[Freethinker]

If the statistic is "beleives in god/ does not believe in god". Yes about 80% of the worlds pop are believers.

 

It used to be far higher.

 

But then the Secular world forced Believers to stop killing non-believers. At least in MOST civilized countries. So our numbers are growing.

[Theist]

It seems as if i may be entering into this forum pretty late in the game but i'd like to ask a question.

Why does a belief in a God contradict science? And although i think it may have been mentioned earlier, that it may be impossible to prove that there is no god, I think it can be logically possible to prove that there IS a god.

I don't see why faith and science cannot coexist.

 

and to comment on this post by hurricaneone:

"To complete the circle on that, if a 'god' were to make themselves known, would religion not cease to exist, as what is religion other than faith in the unknown? "

 

Christians believe that God actually made himself known to man! And faith is not in an "unknown" God but the Judeo-Christian God. The God of creation and also in Jesus Christ.

 

One more thing, the existence of God can be proved without the validity of the Bible or other religious writings. It can be proven through existential experience and logic.

 

Science has a hard time explaining Creation (how can something come from nothing), Morality (explain the moral law that exists in the universe), the meaning of life(what gives purpose to life), and the destiny of man after death.

 

Belief in God has the best logical explanation of these topics.

 

Atheism is basically unliveable! With a belief that absolutes don't exist how can one even begin dialogue? (if absolutes do not exist, is that an absolute statement?)

 

Science is again more a collection of theories and throughout history we've learned that science always seems to be changing with the advent of greater technology; we see we know less than we did before. Science has proved one thing. And that is that there is soo much out there that the minds of mortal men cannot understand.

 

Thanks for your time.

[Tormod]

Theist, I would suggest you read a few more topics before you post - your comments are repetitions of things already discussed (please read our FAQ).

 

I would especially like to point out that several discussions are about science and religion. The argument that "god can be proven without the validity of the bible" makes me wonder which "god" you are referring to.

 

That Christians BELIEVE that God made himself known to man is not proof that he exists (ask any Jew or Moslem if they think Jesus was the son of god).

 

Belief in (any) god is not an explanation, it is an act of faith.

 

Atheism is possibly unbelieveable to you. As is, I suppose, any other view of the world which does not fit your own.

 

Tormod

[Freethinker]

You all come along, we are going to ramble for a while.

 

Originally posted by: Theist

Why does a belief in a God contradict science?

]

 

I wondered if I would have the same question later, or whether this poster would identify themselves later. You see this poster assumes that there must only BE one god concept in existence, because they had absolutely no specific defination of which god myth they were promoting. This is a typical attitude of those that follow the specific god myth they later identifie themselves with. We could have all easily guessed based on the etreme selfrighteous attitude, which god myth this poster had decided everyone must already agree is the ONLY god, so no need to give a speicifc on it.

 

BTW, my question was going to be:

 

"Which god are we going to discuss?"

 

There is any number of logical and scientific mutualy exclusive complications associate with various god myths. It is a matter of which god myth as to the contradictions. So I tought we all needed to know. But before we can know WHICH god myth to discuss, we are asked to give an insightful reply:

 

And although i think it may have been mentioned earlier, that it may be impossible to prove that there is no god, I think it can be logically possible to prove that there IS a god.

 

How do you prove a goat headed, multi-armed octipus scientifically. (That was the god I 1st guessed we were about to discuss.)

 

I don't see why faith and science cannot coexist.

 

I'm sorry that you can not SEE something that obvious. Did you make this statement for pity or a cry for help?

 

"To complete the circle on that, if a 'god' were to make themselves known, would religion not cease to exist, as what is religion other than faith in the unknown? "

Christians...

 

Ah yes, I was wrong, it was NOT a "goat headed, multi-armed octipus", it was the Christian god. We still don't know which version, but it is a start.

 

...believe that God actually made himself known to man!

 

The key word here is"believe". Thus you have not answered the question. The question was if this god ACTUALLY made themselves known, not just hear antiquated claims from relatively ignorant nomads.

 

And faith is not in an "unknown" God but the Judeo-Christian God.The God of creation and also in Jesus Christ.

 

And it gets funnier. Suddenly Jews believe in Jesus Christ. Guess you better send a letter to all the synagogs that haven't gotten the word yet!

 

You Christians really are so extremely selfrighteous. Ya we know. the Jews DO know better, they're either too stubburn to admit it or too stupid to understand it. But they DO accept Jesus regardless! That"Judeo-Christian God.... Jesus Christ"

 

One more thing, the existence of God can be proved without the validity of the Bible or other religious writings. It can be proven through existential experience and logic.

 

Not that you would bother to actually supply any of this massive amount of proof that would overwhelm us so instantly! All you need to do is make the claim and we will all fall on our knees and bark like dogs! Er, was that supposed to be scourage ourselves? Oh maybe it was wear special underwear. I get all these different rituals confused.

 

Science has a hard time explaining Creation

 

That is why Creation can be rejected so eaasily. We havce no problem scientifically PROVING Evolution. Then comes Okham's Razor.

 

(how can something come from nothing),

 

Ever heard of quantum pairs? Probably not. Otherwise you would not ask.

 

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Theist

Atheism is basically unliveable!

 

Emperical evidence sitting here. You wrong.

 

With a belief that absolutes don't exist how can one even begin dialogue?

 

What do absolutes have to do with a lack of a god belief?

 

Science is again more a collection of theories and throughout history we've learned that science always seems to be changing with the advent of greater technology; we see we know less than we did before. Science has proved one thing. And that is that there is soo much out there that the minds of mortal men cannot understand.

 

Ya gotta love the well trained parrot when you find one. Very good mindless repetition (as you had mentioned Tormod) from the talking point breifing. The problem is, these dogmatic platitudes only server to convince those wishing to remain deluded. They do nothing for those with open minds and accessing a large variety of information.

 

Take this overly repeated attack against the "history of science".

 

Like how Einstein's relativity showed that Newtonian Physics had errors. Just as QM is throwing General Relativity around.

 

But theses claims show a lack of understanding. Einstien's GR DID NOT REPLACE Newtonian physics, it enhanced it. Newtonian Physics is till a fully working model at certain levels. But for greater details, we use GR. Then when we get extremely small, GR is no longer the most powerful factor and we get into the world of QM. A complementary system when each is kept into it's realm of associated accuracy and understanding.

 

The history of science has PROVED it to be the ONLY system that can consistantly take verifyable obseravtions and give us working understandings that provide highly accurate predictions. Such as throwing hunks of metal millions and millions of miles and land with yards of the desired spot! Then the hunks of metal turn into self controlled robots that do scientific research for us back here.

 

Ya that rediculous science, that has extended the life span and quality of life many fold over pre-science attempts. That allows you to sit infront of a hunk of stuff and communitate almost instantly anywhere in the world.

 

Next time you, your family, or neighbors get injured or sick, you better not take avantage of any medical SCIENCE, we know what witch craft that is. And since it's witch craft, making Dr's witch's ya better not suffer them to live!

[IrishEyes]

Science is again more a collection of theories and throughout history we've learned that science always seems to be changing with the advent of greater technology; we see we know less than we did before. Science has proved one thing. And that is that there is soo much out there that the minds of mortal men cannot understand.

Thanks for your time.

-------------------------

Moses

 

Moses/Theist...

your views seem incredibly familiar to me. I have tried to look for other posts made by you but can not find one, though you are credited with 6. To which other threads have you posted? I'd enjoy reading more of what you have to say :>)

[IrishEyes]

And it gets funnier. Suddenly Jews believe in Jesus Christ. Guess you better send a letter to all the synagogs that haven't gotten the word yet!

 

You Christians really are so extremely selfrighteous. Ya we know. the Jews DO know better, they're either too stubburn to admit it or too stupid to understand it. But they DO accept Jesus regardless! That"Judeo-Christian God.... Jesus Christ"

 

Actually, there is a growing number of Jews that accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. There are Messianic Jewish synagogues in many major American cities now, as well as Israel, Australia, and many other countries in the world. Check out this website for a more comprehensive list of Jews that believe in Jesus...

 

http://www.umjc.org/net/umjchome.aspx

 

Your anti-Semitic remarks regarding Jewish people (too stubborn, too stupid) show YOUR self-righteous attitude, as Theist did not state nor imply this attitude towards the Jewish people.

 

And yes, He is a Judeo-Christian God. Jesus was a Jew. Belief in Him demonstrates acceptance of at least one Jew. The Bible was written primarily by Jews, for Jews. I don't mean just the OT, but the NT as well. Matthew, John, Paul...all Jews. Some of those churches specifically mentioned in Scripture...full of Jews that accepted Jesus as Messiah.

 

While it is true that there is still a large group of Jews that do not accept Jesus as Messiah, this is also specifically foretold in Scripture. No, it is not a Christian superiority thing, because - as i have stated before - ANYONE can become a Christian. No secret password or handshake is required. No special qualifications exist. The only requirement is to believe that God loved us enough to send His son, Jesus Christ, to be crucified for our sins, be buried and be resurrected, admit that you are a sinner, ask God to forgive your sins, and then accept Jesus into your heart.

 

Freethinker, I expect more from you than the silly insults you tossed on this one! Surely you are aware of Messianic Jews. Why the smoke screen here?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

And it gets funnier. Suddenly Jews believe in Jesus Christ. Guess you better send a letter to all the synagogs that haven't gotten the word yet!

 

You Christians really are so extremely selfrighteous. Ya we know. the Jews DO know better, they're either too stubburn to admit it or too stupid to understand it. But they DO accept Jesus regardless! That"Judeo-Christian God.... Jesus Christ"

 

Actually, there is a growing number of Jews that accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

 

And an even larger number that do not! There are also a number of exChristains that have adopted the Jewish theology. SO WHAT? The original statement is still absurd.

 

Your anti-Semitic remarks regarding Jewish people (too stubborn, too stupid) show YOUR self-righteous attitude, as Theist did not state nor imply this attitude towards the Jewish people.

 

What I DID show was how absurd the assertion that there is a single common "Judeo-Christian God" concept is. And further added that therefore the original poster must have some reason for those Jewish god believers NOT openly recognizing Jesus as their god, when he is THE acknowledged "Judeo-Christian God" god for both. Such as.... (too stubborn, too stupid)

 

And yes, He is a Judeo-Christian God. Jesus was a Jew.

 

1) there is nothing in historical record, contemporary eyewitness reports, to substantiate the existence of the biblcal Jesus. Therefore it is absurd to claim "he" was anything.

 

2) Even if he did exist, and was Jewish, that does not mean he was the JEWISH god! (as in accepted by those of the Jewish faith as THEIR god.)

 

The Bible was written primarily by Jews, for Jews. I don't mean just the OT, but the NT as well. Matthew, John, Paul...all Jews.

 

Please provide VALID VERIFYABLE evidence showing that the NT ("Matthew, John, Paul...") was written by those whose names it is credited to.

 

NONE EXISTS!

 

Freethinker, I expect more from you than the silly insults you tossed on this one! Surely you are aware of Messianic Jews. Why the smoke screen here?

 

Smoke screen? I merely stated the obvious. If JEWS accepted Jesus as their god, they are no longer in the Jewish religion. They are then Christians. To claim that Jews accept Jesus as their god is rediculous.

[IrishEyes]

If JEWS accepted Jesus as their god, they are no longer in the Jewish religion. They are then Christians.

 

This is simply not true.

 

We believe that Jewishness is a birthright. It is inherited from our parents.

Our people are not of one culture; we have diverse cultural expressions (Ashkenazi/Sephardi, Georgian/Russian, Ethiopian, Persian, etc.). Our people are not of one religion. While Judaism might be the traditional religion for many Jewish people, Jews are still considered Jewish even though they might be atheists or even if they embrace other beliefs. from http://www.forjewsforjesus.org/qanda/index.html#jew_christian

 

I often argued that once you accept Jesus as your personal savior, you become a Christian, and are therefore no longer a Jew. Many Jews disagree with me, and I choose to respect their desire to maintain their cultural identity while still acknowledging Jesus as their Messiah.

[IrishEyes]

Please provide VALID VERIFYABLE evidence showing that the NT ("Matthew, John, Paul...") was written by those whose names it is credited to.

 

Polycarp was a personal disciple of John, the Apostle. Polycarp verifies by mention all NT books from Matthew through 1 Timothy, plus 1 peter and 1&2 John. How much more valid can you get than a disciple of the Apostle John saying John actually wrote his books?

 

Clement of Rome, a friend of the Apostle Peter, verifies the writing of at least 9 books.

 

The Mutorian Canon included over 20 books as accepted as authentic.

 

As for verifiable proof from an atheist of the day stating that the books were false, I'm sorry, I don't have that information.

 

Just for the sake of argument, are you suggesting that all of the NT books were written centuries later, by the same person or group, to fit with the idea of a Messiah?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyesI often argued that once you accept Jesus as your personal savior, you become a Christian, and are therefore no longer a Jew. Many Jews disagree with me,

 

This is the same thing as you being able to decide who is and who is not a Christian regardless of that person's personal claim. As you have done here before. It seems anyone can make up anything they like and claim they are what ever it is they randomly choose to call it. Guess I'm a 13yr old white female. Ops that's on another discussion group!