LunaWolfe

Exactly! I remain very curious about putting true socialism into practice. However, I don't think it can happen without some more... well, "personal growth" from everyone in the society. So in the meantime, what I would like to see is more REPRESENTATIVE government in North America. We (both U.S. and Canada) are a couple of the last few remaining First World countries that do not use some form of proportional representation. I would like to vote for the Green Party candidate in most elections. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't... because it is highly unlikely that the candidate would get enough votes to win in a "first-past-the-post" system. And yet, the representative who does get in very seldom has even 30% of the vote, let alone more than 50%. So why are they there? Also, I would be interested in pursuing some form of more DIRECT democracy. I think there is a role for career politicians and people whose passion is legislation, administration, diplomacy and policy. However, I think there could be ways (computer-assisted???) to increase direct PUBLIC input on many issues. The Swiss use referendums a whole lot. Or what about giving us each a say in how our taxes are spent? Could you imagine being able to specify that NONE of your taxes would be spent on military funding? Or being certain that you could increase the percentage of your tax monies that would go to public health-care? The repercussions are staggering! Finally, I wish there were a system that linked our representatives more directly with neighborhood groups. It is hard to make decisions about candidates based on televised speeches, glossy ads, and pre-scripted public appearances. I would be more willing to trust someone I actually knew, talked to regularly, partied with, etc. And then give them some voting power to decide the next level of representation so the groups making decisions never get too big. I feel we are too disconnected from each other, our environment, and our government. Thanks for listening!

I really appreciate how this forum has made me think over my ideas and ideals. What I notice is that it is extremely hard to imagine anything very different from whatever currently exists. We may look back and snicker at people ever believing the sun revolved around the earth. Or wonder how the medieval masses ever put up with the pervasive oppression of the Catholic church. That was all they knew how to imagine! These were the fundamental truths of their lives: the earth is the center of the universe; if I disobey church leaders I will literally burn in hell forever. Statements about "human nature" I find most disturbing (Big Dog). In my estimation we may never know what "human nature" is like because we grow up and live within our cultural framework that has shaped whatever "nature" we started out with. Peacemaker had a good point about corporal punishment of children... now called child abuse. Many people used to, and still do, believe that we start out as wild little beasts that need physical punishment to develop properly into moral adults. I don't believe this. I believe that we copy whatever behavior is modeled: hit child, child grows up to hit others. Likewise with money, (I did get there eventually) it is difficult to even conceive of a culture that would not use money (or plastic, or credits, or barter, or beads). Yet they have existed and could potentially exist again. How to do it still boggles MY mind (I've only been thinking about it for 15 years). I'm not surprised that those who deal with the nitty gritty of finance and industry could not comprehend how such a massive shift could take place. On the other hand, what medieval merchant would have imagined that the Catholic church would not remain omnipotent throughout Europe? What feudal lord could comprehend that someday the peasants would help choose their political leaders and the king/queen would be a mere figurehead? Seemingly insignificant events can have huge repercussions. Seemingly ludicrous ideas can end up being "The TRUTH". Humans certainly seem to exhibit an astonishing level of flexibility, creativity, communication, and curiosity. Let's build on that. Why not make a better society? Here's the challenge, Big Dog: set aside your deeply held belief that a moneyless society "would never work" and apply some of you prodigious thinking power to "How could it be made to work?" And while we're at it, Peacemaker: set aside your deeply held belief that money is "the cause of all the world's problems" and apply some of your creative intelligence to "how could we make money work for us?" (Check out Fiat currencies and negative interest money [Negative interest money: Money that it costs you something to keep. You pay a small amount of interest on it per period, such as 1% a month, typically in the form of a stamp placed on a piece of scrip. So it is also called stamp scrip. It was supported by Keynes in his General Theory, and has many adherents now as a better alternative to the global capitalist money market. The purpose of negative interest money is to keep the money in circulation and doing and creating things, instead of selfishly hoarding it. Inflation can be reduced and productivity and employment increased. Banks have always been hostile to the idea.]) If we are going to improve our society... and I hope we all agree it could be improved... then we might as well work on it together. If we can't even cooperate in developing our ideas then we're probably not ready to start work on the "action" phase! Ever hopeful that the hundredth monkey will figure it out SOON!

Hey folks, Here's one that concerns me: labelling of GMO (Genetically Modified Organisms) ingredients or products. At this point I simply refuse to buy conventional corn, soya and canola. Organic as much as possible. It would sure be nice to know I'm not supporting terminator genes when I buy my crackers. I also highly approve of labelling (or bar-coding) for country of origin of ingredients. Then we could really up our support of local food production and lower global warming! p.s. Maybe we could get Hypogrophy to add a label to applicable threads: "This thread contains personal attacks, read at your own risk". (and I could skip it if I wanted to! ;)

Hmmmm, I would say that all response is positive if you are willing to learn from it. Often you learn the most from mistakes and unexpected resulted.... and negative feedback. It shows you where YOU need to work on communicating your great idea. I agree. It is a wonderful vision. I support the basic concept completely. I work toward it on a daily basis. And I still function within this dysfunctional society. I go between fearful and joyful anticipation of how socieyy/culture will change within my lifetime.... because it WILL, one way or another. Often "easy" "common-sense" and "self-evident" proposals are the hardest to convince people of just because we expect life to be difficult! Oh, and if the alien came to earth I think there'd be a lot of people running away, shooting at it, and hiding in their houses as well as "flocking to sign up". Better proposals.... hmmmm. I didn't realize this thread was intended to solicit our best thinking on acheiving a more rational society. But since you ask.... I believe we could get to my vision by: 1. Communicating and networking with people locally and globally. There are a lot of people sharing the same thoughts and values, often working in isolation. Let's get together and share our thinking and find areas of mutual agreement, thereby increasing our connection with and caring for other people. 2. Being prepared (as individuals and communities) to implement alternative systems when the current paradigm fails (as it inevitibly will, but probably not in any way we can now imagine!). Which means... 3. Practicing and promoting flexible, sustainable, alternative systems. Particularly: self-sufficient local food supplies, participatory consensus decision-making, restorative justice, moneyless communities, off-grid energy production, commitment and connection to a particular bio-region of earth, zero "waste", green building construction. 4. Committing to emotional/psychological healing of self and society. Old wounds often get in the way of really hearing others or implementing our common dreams. Support for such healing work needs to be built into society (replacing the current drug-oriented mental health systems.) 5. Working within the current system to share information, influence decision-making and build support for alternative systems. 6. Having FUN! Being happy! Enjoying life! Doing what we LOVE! Being with people we like! Refusing to give in to mind-numbing fear-mongering propaganda and marketting bombardment. I wasn't born at the time, but I heard one proposal that went like this: "Tune in, turn on and drop out." Short, memorable, flexible and powerful. Mine's a bit too wordy still. How about: "Share your vision, listen with respect, take care of your own backyard and live within the limits of the earth." It'll have to do for now. Peace, man! /forums/images/smilies/banana_sign.gif

You've already been told about how agriculture contributes to global warming. I'll just add my favourite stats: it takes up to 10 units of oil energy to produce 1 unit of food energy (chemical fertilizers are made directly from natural gas). We are literally eating oil. Not only that, but most food in North America travels between 1500 and 2500 miles from farm to plate. SOLUTION: Grow your own food, or buy local or buy organic (in that order). Yes! Take money out of the equation. Or failing that..... make energy efficiency and sustainablity and conservation more profitable. Solutions: voting with our consumption. Buy local, buy long-lasting, buy recycled/used, buy low-packaging or don't buy at all! (Boycott Christmas :doh:) Support sustainable energy producers. Got stocks in oil companies? Go to shareholder meetings and tell them to smarten up! Ditto for other stocks. Know where your investments are. Ask politicians hard questions about their solutions to global warming. (Go Governor Arnie!) Vote. Write letters to politicians. (There are a bunch of government solutions too. Mainly changing who gets subsidies.) Don't fly. Drive as little as possible. Walk. Live simply and conserve energy of all forms. Turn down the heat and put on a sweater in winter. Turn off the air conditioner and drink lots of water in summer. (No bottled water though.... it's just tap water in a disposable plastic bottle.) TALK to people about it! Word of mouth is amazing. Share solutions. Technical fixes are more likely to backfire than solve the problem. We live in a relatively small, finely-tuned, biosphere. We have yet to create a successful, self-sustaining, artificial biosphere. Let's not tinker with the earth anymore than we already have. Reduce, reduce some more, reuse, reuse again, recycle. The plant to grow.... hemp: fiber surpaces and replaces clear-cutting for pulp-paper, also replaces cotton for cloth. Seeds have food and fuel value. Cultivation requires little fertilizer or pest control. Oh yeah, stay home and grow your own food! It's a start.

ice-cream from spine

Peacemaker, you're not. Making Peace that is. Trying yes! And I applaud that you risk your thoughts and heart-visions to the cold scrutiny of such a forum. I suggest you find someone understanding to talk it all out to, and then come back a bit more... well, Peaceful! As you admit, you haven't been very pleasant.... not following your own advice!:doh: It's relatively easy to share visions with people who already agree with you or hadn't thought much about it! It's hard to have your dearly cherished beliefs picked apart . In general I agree with your vision of world harmony, shared resources, evils of the monetary system, ending violence, etc. And yet.... the way you present it gets my back up. You use words like "this is the only viable alternative" and "I have the answers". Strangely enough, even very peaceful people like me suddenly want to say, "oh YEAH?" and tear holes in your theories. Like others, I have a very difficult time imagining our society abruptly giving up money, property, war, consumption and competition. However, I can see possible steps to start a shift in that direction. And I do have a firm belief in the collective conscious being a very powerful force for change when it is activated. How to activate it? Not by metaphorically shouting at people or insulting them. Not by telling them you have the one and only answer. We're mostly too jaded to believe the marketting anymore. So.... 1. Ground the suggestion in things we can all agree on. Security and well-being and having our needs fulfilled. (Maslow's hierarchy of needs: People who are starving are generally more interested in growing food than saving the environment.) 2. Don't assume how people will react. Some will hate it and some will love it. 3. Focus on the positive.... a goal to move toward... something most of us might feel is lacking in our lives (peace, security, connection, hope, abundance, community) 4. Keep it simple and practical. (Dare I say "realistic"?) Ten rules are a good start. (echoes of the ten comandments though:( ) Could even become a little personal pledge: "I will not be violent.... etc." I think it's the practical/realistic that is bogging down a lot of readers here. We want to know how you imagine getting from here to there besides just making everyone "believe". 5. Don't insult people who don't understand or don't agree. It really makes me want to ignore the rest of what you have to say. Finally, "logic" and "good" are very tricky words. They often change depending on perspective. I'm sure there are politicians who think attacking Iran is the only "logical" course of action for the "good" of the world. Not me. Most people actually do have reasons for the things they do. Mostly we are all trying to get to the same goals (Maslow's needs again). And how we try to get there can be wildly different. Check out my post on the "You are called upon by the next President of the United States to head up a taskforce...." thread for some of my immediate practical suggestions for the USA. It is possible that there are several (or many) different ways of achieving a sustainable, peaceful world community. Let's hope we can make some of them happen.;)

Yay, Craig! I love it when people understand and express my own opinions:) It is amazing and difficult but true that most disagreements and violence can be worked through by having sufficient amounts of empathy, communication, and compassion. Most of us don't have it! (or not all the time) In a more people-friendly society perhaps we would have the attention and ability to help others work through their anti-social distress. I also enjoyed your thoughts on those of us who are pretty close to having heaven on earth already and who have realized and accepted our role in shaping humanity's course. However, I also think there is a critical mass... a point at which enough people share the same goal that it becomes "the way things are". Like whether the sun or the earth is at the center. At first it was a crazy idea and yet eventually everyone agreed and only a few people were left on the fringes not agreeing. At which point their not agreeing didn't matter too much. It seems like Peacemaker's vision is right in line with a whole lot of other people throughout history and many current folks. The presentation leaves something to be desired. ;)

President’s Task Force Report July 24, 2007 Until further consultation with experts in the various areas offers better solutions, I propose, Madam President, the following strategies. 1. Energy: Remove government subsidies and tax breaks to oil companies ($11.9 billion in 1995). Give incentives (grants and tax breaks) to sustainable energy companies instead: solar, wind, hydrogen, magnet, tidal, biofuels. Require that oil companies allow production of fuel-efficient vehicles and alternative energy systems that they currently hold patents on. Promote energy-efficiency, especially in building construction. Encourage green-roofs, earth-sheltering, passive ventilation and shading; sub-floor and solar heating, photo-voltaic roof panels. 2. Agriculture: Remove government subsidies and tax breaks to giant corporate owned agri-businesses ($25 billion per year). Give incentives (grants and tax breaks) to family farms, cooperatives and certified organic growers. Require GMO labeling. Promote local food production including in urban areas. Promote hemp production for fiber, fuel and medicine. 3. Transportation: Tax gas and diesel until US car owners pay as much as Europeans ($5-$6 per gallon with up to 75% being taxes). Use the money collected to subsidize public transportion, particularly rail and electric. Tax car companies that produce gas-guzzlers and give incentives to manufacturers making fuel-efficient and alternative-fueled vehicles. 4. Healthcare: Provide universal healthcare along the lines of other Western nations. Eliminate for-profit health-insurance companies. Focus on preventative health-care. 5. Security and Law-enforcement: Decriminalize marijuana (and eventually other street drugs). Criminalize environmental destruction and increase penalties for “white-collar” crimes (i.e. corporate and money-related crimes). Impeach and prosecute certain members of the current government. 6. Foreign Relations: Withdraw from Iraq as soon as possible. Write a letter of apology to Iraqis. Order the CIA to cease and desist all under-cover warfare. Make friends with the rest of the world. Commit to total nuclear disarmament within 10 years. 7. Economy: Use the Genuine Progress to replace the gross domestic product (GDP) as a measure of economic growth. Heavily tax polluters, green-house gas emissions, multi-national corporations, people who make more than $10,000,000 a year. Put an environmental tax on “disposable” items. Make it a criminal offense to charge more than prime plus 5% interest. Eventually dissolve the Federal Reserve and create a Fiat US Currency that does not require going into debt nor profiting private individuals in its creation. Eventually eliminate welfare, unemployment insurance and old-age pension programs and replace Them with a tax-free Guaranteed Annual Income for everyone. 8. Government: Eventually implement some form of proportional representation and/or direct democracy. Various concepts are possible: representatives from local and neighborhood groups electing representatives for the municipal groups then they elect for state government and they elect for national government; computer-facilitated direct voting on referendum issues; individual allocation of personal tax-monies to specific areas.

just a note on the url: it needs a ".uk" after the "driftwood.me" (I'm not allowed to post the actual url yet:D") If you leave off the ".uk" the page won't be found. And since the shortest document there is an 82 page "summary and addendum", I'm looking forward to a mere 65 pages. However, I would think that a writer such as yourself could possibly sumarize for your impatient web audience some of the key points that make the theory make sense.

Excellent observations! It is one of the most challenging aspects of trying to work out an improved society.... how to address the challenge of those who don't agree! Heinlien offered the choice of intensive psychotherepy or being sent "over the wall to Coventry". I think that the answer to what to do with dissenters says a lot about the social theory. I also applaud the observation of valuing people by how they conform to the ideal (which in itself betrays the ideal!) Changing people's thinking, including our own, is more challenging than solving many complex technical problems, and yet thought has such a profound effect on how we live and relate. Finally, why are Utopias the most dangerous societies to live in? As far as I know, no one has ever had a Utopia to live in! How do we know it's dangerous until we try it?

Thanks to Racoon for clarifying the bible quote.... LOVE of money is the root of all evil. In other words: GREED! Although I think money has helped make it easier for us to BE greedy because we focus on accumulating money rather than on other forms of wealth or happiness.

Thanks. I Googled "moneyless society" and found a thread. Had to post! Hopefully I'll have time for other topics too.

The issue of Trust seems to be intrinsic to the discussion of a moneyless society. Small communities, tribes, monestaries, families can work without money because people know and trust each other and also, perhaps, have a sense of responsibility to each other. To extend this amount of trust to larger groups would indeed be challenging. Fears of "laziness" and "greed" would likely arise. On the other side, being regulated by a large central agency (government or otherwise) is also rather scary. In some tribal societies, I believe money (or other value markers) were used only with "outsiders"... people from other tribes. In other words, the small group was relatively self-suffiecient and supported all members but in trading surplus salmon for imported pinapples they relied on "money". With our current level of technology, perhaps there are new options open to us that combine localized production, cooperation and sharing with global interaction and sharing. It all starts with being able to Imagine it!

Thank you! This really makes sense!