# Time In Physics And Time In Buddhism

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### #1 amrit

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Posted 28 January 2006 - 12:03 PM

Buddhism says that time runs only in the mind, in the universe happens all into eternal here and now called Sunyata. It seems Buddhist are right. Let’s go together step by step: in the universe we can only observe movement and not time. The idea that movement happens into time can not be proved, it is a pure speculation. The symbol t in all formulas of physics indicates duration of movement that we measure with clocks. Clocks do not run into time, clocks run into space only. Motion happens into space that is a kind of energy. Time is not energy, motion can not happen into time. In physics term time can be 100% replaced with term motion.

Conclusion here is that time does not exist in the universe. Universe is timeless. But we experience motion into time. The question is: If time is not existing in the universe, where it should be? Buddhist have an answer here: time is a linear “frame of the mind” into which we experience motion. We will call it by now mind-time frame.

Motion is momentary: when X2 exist, X1 is gone, when X3 came into existence X2 is gone. You move a hand from the left to the right. When your hand is into place X2 can not be any more into place X1 and so on. We experience momentary movement that has no duration into linear mind-time frame, so it appears as that it has a duration. The basic measure of duration of all movements and material changes is a earth moving one time around the axe. We compare all the movements with this basic movement. We invented clocks to compare all movements with their movement. Duration of the clock movement 24 hours is earth turning one time around the axe.

Universe is a wholeness in a dynamic equilibrium. According to the first law of thermodynamics energy can not be created and not destroyed, it can only transform. Universe is made out of energy, so it can not be created or destroyed. Universe is eternal. Energy is one and has two basic forms: matter and space. In black holes matter transforms into QS of space, in AGN QS of space transforms back into matter. In the universe matter and space are in dynamic equilibrium. There is a continuous motion: matter - space - matter- space - matter. Time is a “mind-time” frame into which we experience motion.

We experience universe through our mind. Mind experience is analytic. By using consciousness as a research tool we become aware of the mind elaboration into “mind-time" frame. We develop a synthetic experience of the universe. Synthetic experience is direct without mind elaboration. It gives us possibility to experience universe as it exists: eternal wholeness in a dynamic equilibrium.

"Mind-time" frame has changed during the ages. By the old Greeks and by Maya mind-time-frame has a cyclic form. It was considered that time in the universe moves in a big cycles. Jewish tradition has introduced into European culture mind-time frame with a liner form. It was considered that time runs in the universe as a liner entity. Science of today is based on this linear mind-time-fraim.

Buddhist culture is the only one in the world that has discovered the difference between physical time (motion) and mind-time frame. They use consciousness as a research tool. Consciousness can watch the mind and become aware the way mind elaboration influences human experience of the world.
I think that modern physics has to learn a lot from the Buddhism.

“If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs
it would be Buddhism.”
Albert Einstein

Is seems Einstein was aware that science experiences the universe into "mind-time" frame. He has discovered universe directly beyond "mind-time" frame. This direct experience he called NOW.

a technique for conscious experience of time and space see:

Sources:

1. Sorli A. (2001). Watching the Mind as an Individual Research Method,
Frontier Perspectives, Vol 10, Num 1

2. Sorli A. (2002). Direct Experience of the Universe, The Noetic Journal. Vol 3, Num.

3. Sorli A. (2004). Physical Time And Psychological Time.
Frontier Perspectives, Vol. 13, Num 1

4. Sorli A. (2004). Time Is Change. Episteme, Perugia, Italy, Number 8
http://www.dipmat.un...cci/ep8/ep8.htm

5. Sorli A., Sorli I. K. (2004). The Scientific Basis For The Development Of Human Consciousness. Episteme, Perugia, Italy, Number 8, http://www.dipmat.un.../ep8-sorli2.htm

6. Sorli A. (2004), Timeless Space Scientific and Medical Network

7. Sorli A, Sorli K. (2004). Does Time Really Exist As A Fourth Dimension Of Space ?, Journal of Theoretics, Vol. 6-3, http://www.journalof...icles/6-3/S.pdf

8. Sorli A., Sorli I. (2004). Mathematical Time And Physical Time In The Theory Of Relativity, Electronic Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol. 1, Num 4 http://www.ejtp.com/...les/ejtpv1i4p25

9. Sorli A., Sorli I. (2005). Consciousness As A Research Tool Into Space And Time,
Electronic Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol 2, Num 6 www.ejtp.com

10. Sorli A., Fiscaletti D. (2005). Active Galactic Nucleus As a Renewing Systems Of the Universe, Electronic Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol. 2, Num 6 www.ejtp.com
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### #2 infamous

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Posted 28 January 2006 - 01:45 PM

Because this thread has theistic overtones, I'm moving it to the theology forum..........................Infy

### #3 infamous

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Posted 28 January 2006 - 06:02 PM

Webster's; Buddhism, a religion of Asia teaching that by right living and right thinking one achieves Nirvana.

### #4 arkain101

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Posted 28 January 2006 - 07:27 PM

I was going to post a new topic, and I may, but I finally discovered what time is, and that it really is a function! I have not thought out the descriptions very thouroughly yet.

Time is a function of space, it is a property that is tied to that of which is mass, and is perportional to mass at a specific value.

When we think of time as the fundamental fabric that makes up space we see that when time is slown down, mass increases and when time speeds up mass reduces. Time is the type of frequency atoms are operating at.

Lets use an example that shows time exists and what it does. If I take a titanium needle about 1 inch long, and I attach one end of this needle to an ocilating device that causes the needle to flip side to side, pointing left then right. As I beging to accelerate it and acclerate it, more and more energy is required, as the time between directions decreases, the mass of the needle becomse more significant. So it is obvious time is related to function of matter. As I speed this occilation back and forth even more eventually the needle bends right over.

Now if we see how mass increases when time becomes less between specific spaces we see it as a function of how things operate.

Possibly in the same way a video camera can cause rotating objects to look at hault, reversed, or in other words different motion in time atoms may respon in the same nature that as frequencies change in their operation they begin to pick up different values of surrounding energy which will change how they see the world around them, but more importantly it would require or cause them to be invloved to the world around them at different absorbing and emmittion frequencies, resulting in the material to function in a different way than atoms which are presumably at rest.

It is obvious that the fastest force we logically can use is the speed of light, and if we were to harness it, the acceleration would become 0 at the momenmt C is attained.

I am wondering if when you speed up towards C that the atoms are forced to act in the way that fluctuates mass. Be it they spin faster which adjusts there reponse to frequencies around them, where frequencies of Electromagnetic radiation is the very thing that causes the atom to to have an expected life time fromt he relentless pounding of frequency.

However, In this thinking, I am wondering, that even if time dialtion is applicable, I question whether or not light is always the same velocity. Through studying the michle and morley (?) experiments I saw a different reasoning for explaining the results in light apearing to be the same speed. And other examples and experiments that can debunk their findings. But the possibilty of time dialtion would yet still be available through this frequency response reasoning..

The summery here is how time is a function which can cause physcial effects directly to matter and that it is a specific perportion, time and matter.
The remaining here is asumption ideas.

### #5 insight

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 02:27 PM

Welcome Amrit,
You've made a good speculation. Anyway, are you an analyst of religion or a religious person? As myself a buddhist, if you believe in Buddhism, don't try to speculate it. Anyone can say Buddhists are selfish, but i don't care. Liberation is for my own and no one but only i can take it. I posted about Buddhism in this theology forum when i was introduced it. After i've read Buddhism texts, i realised that it's no use to post about Buddhism here and understand how "ignorance' is very important for me. And the other thing is that i've learn what i should be. The more i know, the more i ignore liberation.
(If you're a good person, everyone'll know you. You don't need to say that you're. So please believe in what you have.)

### #6 amrit

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 02:57 PM

hi arkan.

On the first place we have to clear up what is time: Time exists only as a movement of bodies and particles into cosmic space. Time does not move in space on its own.
Time is a physical quantity measured by clocks. With clocks we measure duration of the movement of body or particle regarding another body or particle. There is no still observer which can observe all the movements from a still stand point. All the movements are relative. This is the main insight of the SR.
According to the Mach Planck definition in a Planck time a photon pass Planck distance. Time is a movement of a photon into Planck distance. The movement of photon into Planck distance is a "smallest" movement possible in the universe. Planck time t is a number that indicates the duration of the photon travelling in a Planck distance.
All in the universe is energy: cosmic space is energy, matter is energy, light is energy...... Time is a movement of energy, time can not run by itself into space. If it would be so, time would be an energy, but there is no formula in physics where time is energy.

1. In The Theory of Relativity time can be understood as a part of space only in sense that all movement exists in space. Motion and space can not be separated. Bodies and particles do not move in a space-time, all movement exists in space only. Space-time exist only as a math model, it does not exist in the universe itself.

The idea that time run by itself into cosmic space is from the times of Newton. At his time physics was a part of metaphysics. The idea is from metaphysics, it is not from physics. By Einstein the Newton idea that time runs independently into space and that movement of material bodies runs into time is half abandoned. In the Theory of Relativity duration of the movement (time) is described with t that is only a component of fourth dimension of space X4.

X4 = i x c x t

where

i (i square is -1) is an imaginary number
c is speed of light
t is a duration of light moving through the cosmic space from the object A to the object B

With clocks we measure duration of the movement of the light (duration of time). All four dimensions of cosmic space are spatial, cosmic space is not 3D + 1T, cosmic space is 4D.

Matter is three-dimensional, cosmic space is four-dimensional. When material object is moving in space, space is always also inside of it. Space does not finishes on the surface of material object, it extends also inside of it. One can imagine that as a two-dimensional object moving in a three-dimensional space. Two-dimensional object exists in three-dimensional space, but three-dimensional space exists also in the two-dimensional object.

The speed of the motion (time) depends on a density D of space. Density D in centre of planet or star is D = m x G, where m is a mass and G is gravitational constant. Density D is diminishing with the distance r on square from the centre of the star. Speed of time is increasing with the diminishing of density D. Clocks run faster on the top of the high mountain and slower at the sea side under the mountain. Density of space is higher at sea side and lover on the top of the mountain.

Density of space is increasing by going towards the sun. Time (speed of bodies and particles) is becoming slower by going towards the sun. That's the cause of "Mercury perihelion dilate".

2. Quanta of space (QS) which compose cosmic space have the following features: they change their electrical charge from positive to negative in a Planck time (5.39 ), vibrate at the “basic frequency” 0.19 , have a “basic energy” given by the relation Eqs = h*0.19 where h is Planck’s constant (6.626069 ), and thus Eqs = 1.26 .

QS composing cosmic space can not be created and can not be destroyed, they have no entropy.

Gravitational force acts between that build quanta of space that QS build up cosmic space. The "radius of action "of gravitational force is of a Planck size. Every QS attract the QS around it. Between QS near by the moon and QS near by the earth gravitation acts on the distance and instantly via QS that are between them.

Gravitational force is carried directly by the density of QS that build up cosmic space. Density D of QS of a given volume of cosmic space depends on the density of matter contained in it:

formula 1: D = m x G

where D is the density of QS in the centre of the material object, m is the mass of the object and G is the gravitational constant. The gravitational force Fg between two material objects is given by the following relation:

where r is the distance between the centers of the two material objects.

Gravitational force Fg on material body or on a particle that has a mass m depends on the density G of space.

Fg = (m x D) / ( r x r )

where m is a mass of a body or particle, D is the density if space in a centre of planet or star, r is the distance from the centre of the planet or star; r can be shorter or longer as t the radius of the planet or star.

In a centre of the planet or star Fg on a material object or mass particle is:

Fg = (m x D) m10^-2

Gravitational acceleration a in a given distance r from the centre of the planet or star is:

a = (m x G) / (r x r)

m is a mass of planet or star,
G is gravitational constant
r is a distance from a centre

According to the formula 1: D = m x G

a = D ( r x r )

where D is the density of space in the centre of planet or star

3. Mass of a particle depends on the density of space inside of it are related with the following formula: D = m x G where m is the mass of the particle and G is gravitational constant. The density of space inside of the same atom is higher on the earth than on the moon, because on the earth the density of space is higher than on the moon. The same atom will have a bigger weight on the earth than on the moon. But its density D that defines its mass will remain the same. So by moving through the space the weight of particles changes, but its mass remains the same. Photon is an exception here. Around the photon there is no additional density D of cosmic space, so photon has no weight and no mass.

Energy of matter and energy of space inside of a material object or mass particle are in equilibrium, equal: Espace ( Es ) = Ematter ( Em )

Es = Em = m x cc, ( D = m x G)

where m is a mass of the object, c is speed of light, D is density of space around the object and G is gravitational constant.

Es = Em = (D x cc) / G

Energy of space Es inside of particle or material object depends on the density of space D.

First experiments that proves mass increasing of particles that moves fast were done about 100 years ago. The faster the elementary particle, the bigger will be its mass. We call that “The Relativistic Mass Increase”.

The formula E = m x cc shows the relationship between the increase in mass of the relativistic particle and its increase in kinetic energy.
http://galileoandein...s_increase.html

In this formula we can change m with D/G and we will get the formula:

E = (D x cc) / G

which shows clearly that the kinetic energy of particle depends on the density of space into it.

The mass of accelerated particle is increasing because the with the speed increasing the density around the particle is increasing.

Density of space is increasing also inside of the inertial system that moves with the higher speed regarding the inertial system that moves with the lower speed. This higher density of space causes the speed of clocks is slower into the faster inertial system.

Higher density of cosmic space inside of an fast inertial system is the bridge SR and GR. In SR the speed of inertial system causes the increasing of the density of cosmic space, in GR the mass causes the increasing of the density of cosmic space. “Inertial mass” and “gravitational mass” of a material object or particle are equal because the density of cosmic space in inertial mass and gravitational mass is equal.

Let’s say we are in a fast space ship that travels far away from the stars and planets in cosmic space with low density. With increasing of the speed of the space ship the density of cosmic space into it will increase. By attaining a certain speed the density of the space in the space ship will be equal to the density on the surface of the earth. Space ship travel than with this constant speed. We have two material bodies that are identical. Both of bodies will behave in exact the same way in the space ship and on the surface of the earth. The density D of space in both bodies is equal. This means the equality between inertial mass and gravitational mass.

4. Cosmic space is composed by quanta of space (QS) having the size of Planck length. Light is a physical event in which photons are "jumping" from one quantum of space to another in a Planck time. Cosmic space is a medium of light, inertial systems move through the cosmic space. That's why the speed of light is “maximum speed” in the universe and it is same in all inertial systems.

Light has a double particle-wave nature simultaneously. A single photon jumping from one quantum of space to another in its trajectory is the central part - particle. The “chain jumping” of the photon changes the frequency of the QS on its trajectory from its basic frequency to the frequency of the photon. The central part of the photon also changes the vibration of QS around its trajectory that is its circumference part - wave.

In a “double slit experiment” we can settle instruments and observe photon's particle-part or we can settle instruments differently and observe the wave's part of the photon.
When we settle instruments to observe a particle, we will observe (detect) the particle part of the photon, when we settle instruments to observe a wave, we will observe (detect) the wave part of the photon. Scientist (Observer) should not play any role in this experiment.

5. When a star has a mass of 3,2 masses of sun in its centre the density of cosmic space is so strong that gravitation overpowers all other forces. Matter transforms back into quanta of space (QS) that build up cosmic space.

Beyond Schwarzschild Radius gravity is so strong that prevails above all other forces. All elementary particles transform back into the energy of cosmic space. Matter and space are made out of the same “stuff”. Black holes are the “fabric” where matter transforms back into space. In big explosions of AGN space transforms back into matter.
Universe is composed by one energy. The basic packets of this one energy are QS. Energy is circulating continuously “space-matter-space-matter-…”. Universe is a self-renewing system. There was no beginning and there will be no end.

Rs = (2G x m) / (c x c)

G is gravitational constant
m is mass of the stellar object

According to the formula (1) D = G x m
D is the density of cosmic space in the centre of the black hole

Rs = 2D / (c x c)

Inside Rs gravitation has no direction, density of space does not increases towards the centre of the black hole. The area inside of Rs is a fabric where matter transforms back into the QS of cosmic space.

A mass has a weight when it is in a space where density changes, it has a direction. At the “weightless” Lagrange point between earth and sun happens that density D of space is stable, there is no change of density, no direction. So gravity is there because gravity is carried by the quanta of space QS, and QS build up cosmic space also at the “weightless point”. If it would be no gravitation at the “weightless point” earth would fly away long time ago.
A body at Lagrange point will not move, but this does not mean that gravitational force is not there.

Diminishing of the speed of binary pulsar is caused by the transformation of matter back into the energy of cosmic space in the centre of one star of the binary pulsar. With transformation of matter into space the mass one stars is diminishing, and so also the speed of the binary pulsar is diminishing. There is no gravitational radiation, gravitational waves do not exist.

Time decrease of the orbital period of the binary pulsar PRS1913+16 is the result of matter transforming back into space in the centre of one star. This diminishes the mass of the star, diminishing of the mass causes diminishing of the speed of rotation, and so time decrease of the orbital period.

### #7 Probability

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 11:10 AM

1

### #8 InfiniteNow

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 01:50 PM

The Buddhist teaching about time is closely linked to the doctrine of impermanence. What we see as the passage of time when analyzed in large segments becomes ungraspable when analyzed on the level of single moments of time. Nonetheless, when operating on the ordinary level of discourse, the Buddha taught about the passage of time on both the macrocosmic and microcosmic levels. Just as all beings are born, grow old, get sick and die, so too do entire world-systems come into being, achieve stasis, decay, and cease to be. And every moment of thought can also be seen as coming into being, abiding, decaying, and disappearing.

http://online.sfsu.e...stDict/BDT.html

According to Mahayana Buddhist teaching, time is fundamentally unreal and is the product of distinction-making in the mind.

Past thought cannot be got at, present thought cannot be got at, and future thought cannot be got at. (VS 124)

### #9 amrit

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 06:17 AM

time is a human dymension
there is no time in the universe
in the universe there is only motion
motion itself is a-temporal
universe itself is an a-temporal phenomena

time enters into existence when we start measuring it
in the unıverse there is no past no present and no future
they belong to the human mind only

yours amrit
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### #10 arkain101

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 12:23 PM

This I can agree on.

If we begin taking away parts of our existence, we are left with a model in our mind of a universe unmeasured. It will persue like a flash and an enternity, completely un-precidented. However it should follow the laws of physics in that process.

### #11 cwes99_03

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 12:48 PM

time is a human dymension
there is no time in the universe
in the universe there is only motion
motion itself is a-temporal
universe itself is an a-temporal phenomena

time enters into existence when we start measuring it
in the unıverse there is no past no present and no future
they belong to the human mind only

yours amrit

So who's mind does time belong to? If time does not exist outside of the human mind, then why do things keep moving on when you are asleep, in a coma, dead? Why reincarnate? Time has no meaning then, so why reincarnate as anything other than what you already are? Why die?

### #12 Jehu

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 07:23 PM

So who's mind does time belong to? If time does not exist outside of the human mind, then why do things keep moving on when you are asleep, in a coma, dead? Why reincarnate? Time has no meaning then, so why reincarnate as anything other than what you already are? Why die?

It is a common misconception that Buddhists hold time to exist in the human mind. The central doctrine of Buddhism teaches that the nature of reality is essentially cognizant (awake), and hence the title Buddha (awakened one). In the doctrine of emptiness, the Buddha taught that all things (i.e., ideas, objects, activities, etc., that may be perceived or thought about) were not real, but merely contingent. Everything then is like a shadow, arising and persisting as a result of external causes, and so having no innate properties of its own. He taught that there were five elements (space, water, earth, fire, and wind), however, these were not the elements of a substantial reality, but those of a cognizant one. These five elements correspond to the five fundamental concepts that are the foundation of modern physics (space, time, matter, energy, and motion/change). The three latter elements (matter, energy, and motion/change) he taught were mere illusions, while first two (space and time) he taught were neither real nor illusory. By this he meant that neither space nor time can be said to exist independently of the other. In truth, space and time are merely concepts that we use to describe the true elements of this cognizant reality, awareness and knowledge. This is why it is written that it is not what the eye can see that is the true reality, but that whereby the eye is able to see. This is also why the Buddha taught that the true nature of reality was not one, and not two. So you see, in the Buddhist doctrine, nothing exists in the mind of man, for man, like everything else is devoid of any self-abiding properties, including cognizance. Whatever cognizance we may appear to exhibit, is not our own, but merely a reflection of our true nature. Thus we are like the people in a dream, we see, hear, feel, think, and interact, but we have no substance – there is only the eternal dreamer.

Jehu

### #13 cwes99_03

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 08:14 AM

This is also why the Buddha taught that the true nature of reality was not one, and not two. So you see, in the Buddhist doctrine, nothing exists in the mind of man, for man, like everything else is devoid of any self-abiding properties, including cognizance. Whatever cognizance we may appear to exhibit, is not our own, but merely a reflection of our true nature. Thus we are like the people in a dream, we see, hear, feel, think, and interact, but we have no substance – there is only the eternal dreamer.
Jehu

Sorry, Jehu (hmm a Hebrew Biblical name) but all I got out of that was a bunch of double-speak. Guess I'm not aware, so I must also not be knowledgable.

### #14 Jehu

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 03:35 PM

Sorry, Jehu (hmm a Hebrew Biblical name) but all I got out of that was a bunch of double-speak. Guess I'm not aware, so I must also not be knowledgable.

Very well put Sir, couldn't have said it better myself.

P.S. Jehu is also a Welsh name, as well as being my name. (hmm)

### #15 Prashantha

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:20 AM

Amrit has tried to relate the basic concepts (time space energy) to Buddhism. I am pretty sure that explanation is very close to the one part of the core of buddhism. But we want to know about the current definitions of "pali" terms (really the language was "Magadi").Because one pali word can be described in 4 different ways. The total of all these 4 different means together reflect the idea. But now we can see in most of books the explanations given to the Pali is not correct. Their explanations indicate that the buddhism is a religion for making a good society. Buddhism is not a religion as well as not a philosophy. It is a teaching a way to exceed time frame. Since the meaning of pali in standard text books have so many distortion, the real meaning is bit far. For an example, "anichcha" in pali is defined as impermanence. Due to the lack of proper understand Anichcha is replaced by anithya. Load Buddha mainly focused anichcha, not anithya. Translators think the terms both anithya and anichcha are same and those are representing impermanence. It is completely wrong. Anithya (impermanence) has both good and bad effects. But Load Buddha had combined time and entropy together into anichcha. "Sabbe sankara anichchathi" not sabbe sankar anithyathi. Thermodynamics second low represents, sabbe sankara anichchathi. Do you like experience the disorderness? Anyway, all these are limited to knowledge. It is an individual effort to realizing (consciously make it real) the knowledge.

### #16 Little Bang

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:32 PM

Time is the glass through which we look and the glass can have different magnifications depending on the strength of the gravity well from which we look.