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#1 hazelm

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 06:23 AM

Ice-free roadways from the "get-go".  Put MODOT, TXDOT and all the other DOT"s out of business?  Or, send them off to build new speedways around cities and across countries?

 

https://www.scienced...p Science News)

 

Sound good? 



#2 Flummoxed

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 09:16 AM

Ice-free roadways from the "get-go".  Put MODOT, TXDOT and all the other DOT"s out of business?  Or, send them off to build new speedways around cities and across countries?

 

https://www.scienced...p Science News)

 

Sound good? 

 

 

Sounds good on planes and electric cables.

 

But I bet it doesnt work on a road with a metre of snow on it. You will still need snow ploughs :) Puddles, will still freeze over.

 

What would happen when so much ice has been repelled filling all the gutters and drains, I guess the ice would not run uphill, so it will stay on the road even if it isnt attached to the road surface. 



#3 exchemist

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 11:46 AM

Sounds good on planes and electric cables.

 

But I bet it doesnt work on a road with a metre of snow on it. You will still need snow ploughs :) Puddles, will still freeze over.

 

What would happen when so much ice has been repelled filling all the gutters and drains, I guess the ice would not run uphill, so it will stay on the road even if it isnt attached to the road surface. 

Might make it even more slippery, in fact. 



#4 hazelm

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 12:11 PM

Sounds good on planes and electric cables.

 

But I bet it doesnt work on a road with a metre of snow on it. You will still need snow ploughs :) Puddles, will still freeze over.

 

What would happen when so much ice has been repelled filling all the gutters and drains, I guess the ice would not run uphill, so it will stay on the road even if it isnt attached to the road surface. 

Flummoxed, I begin to suspect you are as cynical as I am.  :-)  

 

As to your thoughts, one I question.  If this spray is going to prevent ice on the road, why wouldn't it also prevent snow.  Snow is - I think - warmer than ice.   Or, is it talking about ice that is already ice before it hits -- that it won't stick.  I'll re-read.

 

Oh well, they left themselves some "if it works" leeway.  We shall see.

 

Keep your cynicism.  It makes the cocksure people work harder at proving.  :-)



#5 hazelm

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 12:17 PM

Might make it even more slippery, in fact. 

Make sidewalks more slick first and nobody - absolutely nobody - every worries about the sidewalks.  In fact,  I think they pay plow people extra to see how high they can pile the now onto the sidewalks  -- and double extra is they do a double dose at driveways at driveways.  :-(

 

We must remember, though, that Houston is in the far, far South.  Do they know about ice? 



#6 Flummoxed

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 03:03 PM

Flummoxed, I begin to suspect you are as cynical as I am.  :-)  

 

As to your thoughts, one I question.  If this spray is going to prevent ice on the road, why wouldn't it also prevent snow.  Snow is - I think - warmer than ice.   Or, is it talking about ice that is already ice before it hits -- that it won't stick.  I'll re-read.

 

Oh well, they left themselves some "if it works" leeway.  We shall see.

 

Keep your cynicism.  It makes the cocksure people work harder at proving.  :-)

 

What do you mean. I think I am optimistic, I just tend to think what could stop something a theory from working :) 

 

The substance does not stop ice forming, it stops ice sticking to the surface. On a plane wing ice will blow off, if it isnt stuck. If snow falls on a road where is it going to slip to. Without wind it stays put. Snow comes in larger quantities and might not be so easy to move out of the way, especially when compacted even if it is not stuck to the road surface. 



#7 hazelm

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 03:16 PM

What do you mean. I think I am optimistic, I just tend to think what could stop something a theory from working :)

 

The substance does not stop ice forming, it stops ice sticking to the surface. On a plane wing ice will blow off, if it isnt stuck. If snow falls on a road where is it going to slip to. Without wind it stays put. Snow comes in larger quantities and might not be so easy to move out of the way, especially when compacted even if it is not stuck to the road surface. 

A friend just told me that silicon (which they want to use) is slick to drive or walk on.  That should kill the whole deal.  No?  There was something in there about cracks.  I must get back to that.

 

My solution is best.  Heat the surfaces.  Keep it all melting. 


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#8 GAHD

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 04:34 PM

Coming from the Land of Snow myself, I'm gong to point out that Ice itself isn't really slippery. Ice becomes slippery when friction causes localized melting on the surface, which in turn causes a hydroplane. Exact same issue with cars, shoes, etc.. Black Ice is a common thing around me, but one that isn't so bad when temps drop to -35 C or lower (like right now). Adding ANOTHER layer of delamination would be absolutely stupid IMHO; it's just another area where it will have surface melt and whatnot(probably exactly how the material actually works to begin with, something to do with van der Waals force I assume).

That being said, great idea for shingles to prevent ice-damming, Plane wings, power cables, siding, etc...  As long as it's consistent and won't cause sheeting and large sheet delamination like we see on angled steel roofing. That can be very dangerous, 25-250kg of solid ice dropping from 3+ meters is not a good thing for whatever's under it...


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#9 exchemist

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 04:56 PM

Coming from the Land of Snow myself, I'm gong to point out that Ice itself isn't really slippery. Ice becomes slippery when friction causes localized melting on the surface, which in turn causes a hydroplane. Exact same issue with cars, shoes, etc.. Black Ice is a common thing around me, but one that isn't so bad when temps drop to -35 C or lower (like right now). Adding ANOTHER layer of delamination would be absolutely stupid IMHO; it's just another area where it will have surface melt and whatnot(probably exactly how the material actually works to begin with, something to do with van der Waals force I assume).

That being said, great idea for shingles to prevent ice-damming, Plane wings, power cables, siding, etc...  As long as it's consistent and won't cause sheeting and large sheet delamination like we see on angled steel roofing. That can be very dangerous, 25-250kg of solid ice dropping from 3+ meters is not a good thing for whatever's under it...

This is interesting. I found a more detailed article on it here: http://mini.physics....p?id=lectures:6

 

I was brought up on the idea, now shown to be wrong, that pressure caused melting. It does, a bit, but the effect is pretty small and is not enough to account for what we see. 

 

You mention the friction theory, which is supported by experiment. But according to this article there is also another reason, which is that there is a layer of liquid water on the surface of ice, down to quite low temperature, as a result of the thermodynamics around the edges and surfaces of the crystals, where the bonding lattice is incomplete.

 

There seems to be quite a lot to this. :)


Edited by exchemist, 16 January 2019 - 04:57 PM.

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#10 hazelm

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 06:24 AM

About ice (or a bank of snow) falling from a roof:   The huge storm that fell on us last weekend was finally melting a bit yesterday.  A friend was at an appointment near a hospital.  She saw someone on the roof. cutting across a thickness that was already hanging down above a sidewalk.  Not a bad idea but all that will happen is that more will slide down behind it.  Maybe he'll have to park on the roof and keep sawing?



#11 OceanBreeze

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 06:41 AM

Ice-free roadways from the "get-go".  Put MODOT, TXDOT and all the other DOT"s out of business?  Or, send them off to build new speedways around cities and across countries?

 

https://www.scienced...p Science News)

 

Sound good? 

 

I don't know how new this idea is. We have been using various types of spray on anti-icing agents on our ship for several years. Since we travel to polar regions, ice buildup is a real issue with antenna masts and parabolic dishes and in general all over the ship. One type that we cannot use employs electrical and magnetic properties to repel the ice and we have found that actually interferes with sensitive communications receivers.

But, I am commenting without actually reading up on how this particular agent works and that is usually a bad idea. :zip: