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How Tornados Form


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#1 hazelm

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 06:31 AM

Surprise!  Tornadoes Form from Ground Up.

 

https://www.sciencem...&et_cid=2548698

 

The formerly-believed idea that tornadoes form in the clouds is disputed with evidence.



#2 OceanBreeze

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 08:39 AM

Sure. And rain falls from the ground up.


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#3 Flummoxed

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 06:39 PM

Surprise!  Tornadoes Form from Ground Up.

 

https://www.sciencem...&et_cid=2548698

 

The formerly-believed idea that tornadoes form in the clouds is disputed with evidence.

 

Ah Ah I read this a yesterday.  

 

Tornadoes forming from the ground up are not that surprising when looking at dust devils and other low level whirl winds https://en.wikipedia...iki/Dust_devil 

 

 

Sure. And rain falls from the ground up.

 

Rain falling from the ground up :)  Um > moisture evaporates and rises condensing in clouds and then falls, as part of the water cycle :) I hadnt considered the moisture evaporating and rising as falling rain before :) Have you ever thought you might be wrong :)



#4 OceanBreeze

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 04:15 AM

Ah Ah I read this a yesterday.  

 

Tornadoes forming from the ground up are not that surprising when looking at dust devils and other low level whirl winds https://en.wikipedia...iki/Dust_devil 

 

 

 

 

 

You are mixing up two very different phenomena:

 

Dust devils form as a swirling updraft under sunny conditions during fair weather, when a pocket of hot air near the surface rises quickly through cooler air above it, forming an updraft.

 

440px-Dust_devil.jpg

 

 

 

Tornadoes are associated with a larger parent circulation, the mesocyclone on the back of a supercell thunderstorm. They form in the air prior to touching down on the ground.

 

Evolution_of_a_Tornado.jpg

 

 

 

Rain falling from the ground up  :)  Um > moisture evaporates and rises condensing in clouds and then falls, as part of the water cycle  :) I hadnt considered the moisture evaporating and rising as falling rain before  :) Have you ever thought you might be wrong  :)

 

 

No, never!


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#5 Flummoxed

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 03:28 AM

No, never! "

 

The radart photos showed strong wind on the ground before it appeared higher up. You cant argue with measurements, I suppose the researchers who did the measurement could have something wrong, or are deliberately misinterpreting the results for publicity maybe. 

 

 

reno_16x9.jpg?itok=SDS1cSj_
 
Researchers analyzed four tornadoes, including a monster known as El Reno (shown above), which holds the record as the widest tornado ever measured, at 4.2 kilometers. They noticed something odd when they compared radar measurements that tracked wind speed with hundreds of photographs and videos of El Reno taken by storm chasers: The storm’s funnel was already on the ground several minutes before the radar data—taken roughly 250 meters off the ground—recorded any rotation.

Out of curiosity, the scientists reanalyzed radar measurements taken near the ground. (A hilltop vantage point during the storm serendipitously allowed the team to scan close to the ground without the interfering effects of trees and telephone poles.) They found rapid rotation near the ground before it appeared higher up, a pattern that was confirmed in three other tornadoes, as they will report tomorrow at the semiannual meeting of the American Geophysical Union in Washington, D.C.


Edited by Flummoxed, 19 December 2018 - 03:29 AM.


#6 OceanBreeze

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 03:37 AM

 

No, never! "

 

The radart photos showed strong wind on the ground before it appeared higher up. You cant argue with measurements, I suppose the researchers who did the measurement could have something wrong, or are deliberately misinterpreting the results for publicity maybe. 

 

 

reno_16x9.jpg?itok=SDS1cSj_
 
Researchers analyzed four tornadoes, including a monster known as El Reno (shown above), which holds the record as the widest tornado ever measured, at 4.2 kilometers. They noticed something odd when they compared radar measurements that tracked wind speed with hundreds of photographs and videos of El Reno taken by storm chasers: The storm’s funnel was already on the ground several minutes before the radar data—taken roughly 250 meters off the ground—recorded any rotation.

Out of curiosity, the scientists reanalyzed radar measurements taken near the ground. (A hilltop vantage point during the storm serendipitously allowed the team to scan close to the ground without the interfering effects of trees and telephone poles.) They found rapid rotation near the ground before it appeared higher up, a pattern that was confirmed in three other tornadoes, as they will report tomorrow at the semiannual meeting of the American Geophysical Union in Washington, D.C.

 

 

 

I can argue with measurements if the researchers do not know what they are doing.

 

Are they actually claiming there was no supercell thunderstorm in the area prior to the tornado forming?

 

It is patently obvious from observation that the tornado is formed first in the sir before touching down. There will of course be ground effect winds from the storm forming higher up, but it does not originate on the ground. That is nonsense.



#7 Flummoxed

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 03:51 AM

I can argue with measurements if the researchers do not know what they are doing.

 

Are they actually claiming there was no supercell thunderstorm in the area prior to the tornado forming?

 

It is patently obvious from observation that the tornado is formed first in the sir before touching down. There will of course be ground effect winds from the storm forming higher up, but it does not originate on the ground. That is nonsense.

 

Please do explain, thunderstorms are very interesting and not fully understood. 

 

El Reno was being chased by strorm chasers, I guess they wouldnt be doing this if no thunderstorm was forming.

 

The researchers claim the radar measurements show the wind started lower down before they appeared higher up.

 

Water spouts appear without thunderstorms :)


Edited by Flummoxed, 19 December 2018 - 03:51 AM.


#8 OceanBreeze

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 03:53 AM

 

 

 They noticed something odd when they compared radar measurements that tracked wind speed with hundreds of photographs and videos of El Reno taken by storm chasers: The storm’s funnel was already on the ground several minutes before the radar data—taken roughly 250 meters off the ground—recorded any rotation.

 

 

The part I bolded doesn't even make sense.

 

The funnel was on the ground for several minutes before the radar data recorded any rotation at 250 meters off the ground!

 

As the chief engineer on a research vessel, I have had to deal with more than my share of researchers who have a lot of academic training but very little practical knowledge and make all sorts of silly mistakes when they get out into the real world. Over the years, I have developed an ability to analyze these sort of mistakes to figure out where the researchers may have gone wrong.

 

So, getting back to this case, I have seen many tornadoes form up and they always formed up in the sky before touching down on the ground. It is a fact, the Tornado Vortex Signature (TVS), which is a Doppler radar pattern that indicates a region of intense concentrated rotation, appears on radar several kilometers above the ground before a tornado touches the ground.

 

If somebody’s radar is telling them something different, then that somebody does not understand what the radar is telling them, or even how radar works.

 

First of all, radar does not directly detect wind unless there are particles in the wind to reflect the radio signal. Those particles can be precipitation or they can be debris picked up from the ground.

 

When these researches say the “funnel was on the ground for several minutes before the radar detected any rotation”, 250 meters higher up, this gives me some clues. I suspect they are detecting the funnel on the ground (by visual or other means) before their radar sees it higher up simply because the funnel has not yet picked up enough debris from the ground, and raised it to the higher elevation to reflect the radio waves at that higher elevation.

 


Edited by OceanBreeze, 19 December 2018 - 05:25 AM.

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#9 OceanBreeze

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 03:58 AM

Please do explain, thunderstorms are very interesting and not fully understood. 

 

El Reno was being chased by strorm chasers, I guess they wouldnt be doing this if no thunderstorm was forming.

 

The researchers claim the radar measurements show the wind started lower down before they appeared higher up.

 

Water spouts appear without thunderstorms :)

 

Water spouts form in a similar way to dust devils. Not the same as a tornado at all.

 

There has to be a larger parent circulation for a tornado to form. It is that larger parent from which the tornado originates. Simple as that.



#10 Flummoxed

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 08:10 AM

Water spouts form in a similar way to dust devils. Not the same as a tornado at all.

 

There has to be a larger parent circulation for a tornado to form. It is that larger parent from which the tornado originates. Simple as that.

 

I've just had an epiphany, dust devils and water spouts form independently of thunder clouds, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that they detected either a dust devil or water spout that had formed independently of the storm cell and being frsh out of college, thought they were caused by the storm cell. The storm cell subsequently developed funnels which came to ground at or near the original dust devil/water spout.

 

Problem solved, what do you reckon? :)



#11 hazelm

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 08:31 AM

The part I bolded doesn't even make sense.

 

The funnel was on the ground for several minutes before the radar data recorded any rotation at 250 meters off the ground!

 

As the chief engineer on a research vessel, I have had to deal with more than my share of researchers who have a lot of academic training but very little practical knowledge and make all sorts of silly mistakes when they get out into the real world. Over the years, I have developed an ability to analyze these sort of mistakes to figure out where the researchers may have gone wrong.

 

So, getting back to this case, I have seen many tornadoes form up and they always formed up in the sky before touching down on the ground. It is a fact, the Tornado Vortex Signature (TVS), which is a Doppler radar pattern that indicates a region of intense concentrated rotation, appears on radar several kilometers above the ground before a tornado touches the ground.

 

If somebody’s radar is telling them something different, then that somebody does not understand what the radar is telling them, or even how radar works.

 

First of all, radar does not directly detect wind unless there are particles in the wind to reflect the radio signal. Those particles can be precipitation or they can be debris picked up from the ground.

 

When these researches say the “funnel was on the ground for several minutes before the radar detected any rotation”, 250 meters higher up, this gives me some clues. I suspect they are detecting the funnel on the ground (by visual or other means) before their radar sees it higher up simply because the funnel has not yet picked up enough debris from the ground, and raised it to the higher elevation to reflect the radio waves at that higher elevation.

Your last paragraph says it all.  That funnel scouring along just above the ground has all eyes on it to determine who is going to get hit.  No one is looking overhead to see the humongous conglomeration of wind, debris, maybe rain, maybe not.  We watch that funnel and take shelter according to what we see it doing.  Coming right at us?  Take to the ditch or cellar. Veering off in another direction?  Well, if you're brave and (xxxxxx) - stand there and watch it.  Different people get their thrills different ways.

 

Nevertheless,  those volunteer storm chasers are indeed a big help to the weather persons.  As flummoxed is indicating,  they are amateurs - or newly-educated - and will make mistakes.  That's why we have chief engineers.

 

PS  And, yes, I note your talk of them using radar to spot overhead but that part I do not understand.  So, I leave it to you.  Can you observe both at once? 


Edited by hazelm, 19 December 2018 - 08:34 AM.


#12 hazelm

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Posted 22 December 2018 - 09:44 AM

https://www.scienced...81221123737.htm

 

I only add this because it seems to have become a more scientific report from a professional source.  I do not think there is much new in it.  But, notice that it does not - unless I missed it - mention seeing any rain.



#13 OceanBreeze

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Posted 22 December 2018 - 10:31 AM

I am more certain than ever, after reading this, that these researchers do not understand how radar works!

 

Radar does not detect wind directly. The radio waves need to reflect off of particulate matter being carried by the wind, and that particulate matter can be water drops or debris picked up from the ground or a combination of both.

 

We have plenty of visual evidence and radar signatures that the tornadoes form high up in the clouds and then descend to the ground. Earlier I said that I have witnessed “many” tornadoes and that was a silly exaggeration. I have witnessed exactly five; three that were on the ground and two that were travelling along well above ground. I know the exact number is five because tornadoes are so awesome that if you ever see one you probably will not forget it, ever.

 

Anyway, the two that did not touch down are the most interesting for this discussion. They were very clearly distinctive funnel shapes and moving along very rapidly with their associated thunder storms. Neither was vertical when I saw them, and one was almost horizontal. The point is, they were nowhere near the ground and already fully developed tornadoes! How in the hell can these researchers explain that, according to their “theory” that tornadoes form on the ground?

 

I will repeat that the Tornado Vortex Signature (TVS); a Doppler radar pattern that indicates a region of intense concentrated rotation, appears on radar several kilometers above the ground well before a tornado touches the ground and even if the tornado never touches the ground!

 

It is important to note that If there is little moisture being carried by the funnel, it is completely transparent to radar until the funnel touches down and picks up some debris!

 

Here is what these “researchers” say:

 

“In the 2013 El Reno tornado, observations showed evidence of a tornado that was only visible in radar data less than 20 meters above the ground, but nowhere else, at the beginning. The next elevation angle above showed no tornado-strength rotation”

 

 

And:

 

“In the largest tornado the team studied, the deadly 2013 El Reno tornado, video documentation showed that a funnel cloud was visible for one minute and 40 seconds before the development of a radar-derived, vertically-continuous vortex”

 

Well hell, they are actually admitting the funnel existed, and was visible to the eye and the video camera, before the radar data picked it up! That means the funnel was already there because it descended from the clouds! Just because the radar data doesn’t show it until it picks up enough debris to reflect the signal, does not mean it is forming up on the ground, FFS.

 

I would like to see these people bring their findings to the NOAA, for whom I work, and see how well they fare.

 

I see all too much of this sort of thing happening these days. First it was the “faster than light neutrinos” then the “reactionless EM drive” and now “tornadoes forming on the ground”, even though we see them coming down from the clouds and we have no idea where they will touch down.

 

This is the last post I will make on this, Hazel, but I will make a prediction: this will be shown to be another theory formulated by totally incompetent researchers.

 

 

 

 

 

 



#14 hazelm

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Posted 22 December 2018 - 10:54 AM

I am more certain than ever, after reading this, that these researchers do not understand how radar works!

 

Radar does not detect wind directly. The radio waves need to reflect off of particulate matter being carried by the wind, and that particulate matter can be water drops or debris picked up from the ground or a combination of both.

 

We have plenty of visual evidence and radar signatures that the tornadoes form high up in the clouds and then descend to the ground. Earlier I said that I have witnessed “many” tornadoes and that was a silly exaggeration. I have witnessed exactly five; three that were on the ground and two that were travelling along well above ground. I know the exact number is five because tornadoes are so awesome that if you ever see one you probably will not forget it, ever.

 

Anyway, the two that did not touch down are the most interesting for this discussion. They were very clearly distinctive funnel shapes and moving along very rapidly with their associated thunder storms. Neither was vertical when I saw them, and one was almost horizontal. The point is, they were nowhere near the ground and already fully developed tornadoes! How in the hell can these researchers explain that, according to their “theory” that tornadoes form on the ground?

 

I will repeat that the Tornado Vortex Signature (TVS); a Doppler radar pattern that indicates a region of intense concentrated rotation, appears on radar several kilometers above the ground well before a tornado touches the ground and even if the tornado never touches the ground!

 

It is important to note that If there is little moisture being carried by the funnel, it is completely transparent to radar until the funnel touches down and picks up some debris!

 

Here is what these “researchers” say:

 

“In the 2013 El Reno tornado, observations showed evidence of a tornado that was only visible in radar data less than 20 meters above the ground, but nowhere else, at the beginning. The next elevation angle above showed no tornado-strength rotation”

 

 

And:

 

“In the largest tornado the team studied, the deadly 2013 El Reno tornado, video documentation showed that a funnel cloud was visible for one minute and 40 seconds before the development of a radar-derived, vertically-continuous vortex”

 

Well hell, they are actually admitting the funnel existed, and was visible to the eye and the video camera, before the radar data picked it up! That means the funnel was already there because it descended from the clouds! Just because the radar data doesn’t show it until it picks up enough debris to reflect the signal, does not mean it is forming up on the ground, FFS.

 

I would like to see these people bring their findings to the NOAA, for whom I work, and see how well they fare.

 

I see all too much of this sort of thing happening these days. First it was the “faster than light neutrinos” then the “reactionless EM drive” and now “tornadoes forming on the ground”, even though we see them coming down from the clouds and we have no idea where they will touch down.

 

This is the last post I will make on this, Hazel, but I will make a prediction: this will be shown to be another theory formulated by totally incompetent researchers.

Maybe they can form anywhere and any way they choose to form.  :-)