49 replies to this topic

[Romer]

According to our current technology, we cant just plug a helmet into a PC in order to connect the virtual world and move the body there. But i think for the least we can make a station where all signal gather before individual connect can be done. Yes, it sound confusing. But we can only start from basic way. I believe that had been assumed but in another form that we simply cannot imagine of. Like ealier the brain computer i said that are a bit have connection to this.

 

Did i still sound confusing?

Edited by Romer, 01 April 2017 - 11:55 PM.

[BrainJackers]

Our current technology most certainly is not enough to make a fully imersive BCI, but we are getting closer every day.

 

Unfortunately, I don't understand what you mean by station or by 'individual connect'. Do you mean gathering the signals from different parts of the brain to one place before sending it off to the computer?

 

You may find these links useful to your understanding of how much humans are closer to a fully immersive BCI: 

 

This link shows how DARPA artificially stimulated the brain using electrodes to create a sense of touch:

http://www.darpa.mil...ents/2016-10-13

 

Monkeys drive wheelchairs just by thinking:

http://www.popsci.co...y-monkeys-brain

 

This article explains how Sleep Paralysis works, and also might make clear how artificially creating Sleep Paralysis might be possible, to stop the real body moving while in the game: https://www.utoronto...paralysis-works

 

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[Romer]

I might sound unlogic on the 'individual connect' and the 'gatheringa all signal' but i guess i should explain this.

 

By 'individual connect' i mean directly connect to the computer by using a device that could directly transfer your brain message to the game without passing by any server gate(something like a check point before enter)

 

By gathering all signal i mean we have to...Might sound weird and unlogic, but remember before we do something like looking at an apple, our brain will trasmit an image to the brain and then we know it is an apple then our brain will transmit signal to the arm and then we pick it up. What if we pack all these stimuli together like a program all send it to a specialize station(a station to convert the stimuli into action)?

[quickquestion]

Don't know about anybody else, but I do not want tiny nano-machines burrowing into my brain.

 

I hate this world, so I have a vested interest in a virtual reality simulation. But the nano-machines are a real bugger to me. I just don't trust it, especially at the hands of some corporation or government entity.

 

But on the other hand, it seems as no other alternative for realistic VR, than to interface with the neurons themselves, to connect to Consciousness directly.

[BrainJackers]

@Romer

 

I see what you mean by individual connect now. You mean 'connection', right?

 

In your apple analogy, only 1 of those things was actually a stimuli - seeing the apple.

A BCI only has to send an image to the brain by stimulating the correct parts of the brain, and to 'read' the brain so it knows what it wants to do (i.e. pick up the apple.)

You can't pack all these signals together as they have to take place in a certain order and they happen in different places. This is what would happen when looking at an apple and then deciding to pick it up in a BCI VR.

 

1. Seeing the apple - The BCI stimulates a part of the brain in a certain pattern to make it 'see' an image of an apple.
2. Recognising the apple - The brain sends many signals from different parts of itself including the memory region to understand what it is 'seeing'. This requires no activity from the BCI.
3. Picking the apple up - The brain sends a signal to its muscle to pick it up. This is blocked by the BCI (to stop movement in Real Life). The BCI then 'reads' and translates the signal so it knows what the user wants to do. The BCI will then tell the game to make the avatar move the apple.

 

As you see, these signals cannot be packed and sent together as one signal cannot happen untill another one has been recieved. And these signals are going in different directions.

 

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Edited by BrainJackers, 17 April 2017 - 09:55 AM.

[Samlw23]

Hi all,

Im new to this and have been reading the last posts on the other topics and stuff for the last couple of days, and I'm not really old enough to be able to help in any way, but just here to give some ideas and other things that might help.

 

So I have a few points which might make the job a bit easier, but maybe not (and they may have already been considered), so if they don't help then just disregard them 

 

1. In the anime in the first episode i think it was, kirito explained that there was no actual 'pain' in SAO, but there was still the sensation of touch. I think this could make things a heck of a lot easier, as the 'NerveGear' wouldn't have to make you feel things in a really 'high quality' but only in the sense that something is there. this could be easily done by using a suit which sends electric impulses to a part near the where the character is 'hit', but i think it could be fairly similar by using a helmet, by sending impulses to the 'rough area' of were the character in game is being touched, and not having to be too precise about it.

 

2. There are a couple ways that the persons physical body could be put to 'sleep' while in the game. First off a paralysing agent could be used, as someone else has said before. But there are also other ways that this could be done. Im not entirely sure how this works, but electric signals in one direction can be cancelled out by sending an electric signal of the same magnitude in the opposite direction right? if that can happen, all the computer needs to do is scan the strength of the current (then it has the data for moving the in game character) and then send a signal through the same nerve to cancel it out. If that can't work then another way you could do it is by using the opposite muscle to negate movements, like when the bicep is flexed the tricep is flexed enough to cancel out the movement.

 

3. The technology we have now is good enough that we have photorealistic screens, so it won't be very long until these become commercially available, and these could be used like the VR we have now where there is just a screen in front of your eyes. If no one likes that, a man who was blind can now slightly 'see' through cameras on his head that transmit data to the brain. this isn't very high quality at all and from what i have read he needed surgery to get it. But high quality versions won't be very far off in the future either, and the input can be from the game instead of a camera.

 

4. Sound can just be done through headphones or something similar. easy peasy hahah

 

I have no clue about the smell or taste but i hope this may have helped someone?

I've read about how the main difficulty is reading and writing signals to the brain, but i have no clue on how this could happen because I'm not even out of high school yet   hopefully this helps someone but thats all i have for now.

Thanks haha 

[BrainJackers]

@Samlw23

 

It's interesting how you've thought of ideas from both 'Fake' VR (essentially non-BCI VR) with your opposing muscles idea and headphones, and 'True' VR (BCI VR) with your helmet comment. I haven't seen that before. Your 3rd and 4th point don't seem to have any problems, but there were some 'flaws' with your 1st and 2nd point.

1. Pain and Touch are different senses. You don't need to be accurate to stimualte pain. It's a common misconception that there are only 5 senses. "But many neurologists identify nine or more senses, and some list as many as 21." - How Many Senses do You Really Have? But you're also right about not needing to be super precise. This link shows what part of the Somatosensory and the Motor Cortex are responsible for the sensing and control of different body parts: Homunculus. As you can see, parts like the hands have higher 'priority' and will be easier to create a precise feeling there.            
2.  Cancelling out an electrical signal with another one in the same direction may work (See Antidromic Signals). However the BCI will have to have an extremely low temporal resolution (can read signals very quickly), as the antidromic impulse will have to be timed to cancel out the normal impulse. Measuring the 'size' of the impulse will not neccessary as all action potentials (even artificial ones) have the same magnitude (See All-or-none law). Using opposing muscles to cancel out the movements could work but wouldn't it cause strain on the muscles? I'm not sure about this one.

Regarding sight, you may find it interesting how far we've come with mapping the Occipital lobe (the part of the brian dealing with vision): Getting Visual Data from Cat's Brain. And this video was made in 2009, so further advances have probably been made since then.

 

BTW, I too am also still in secondary school (equivalent of US high school, I think).

 

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[jasle009]

Hey guys i hope you respect this.
Months ago i started to research how to build a nervegear and how does it work but all of that has paid off because we found a way to build the nervegear much cheaper and fit for our technological state right now oh and by the way we are the NGC or NEURAL GAMING CORPORATION if you want to take part in this project well you are all welcome to join

[DMT]

All we really need to do is find out exactly what consciousness is. If we could figure out what it is, where it is, how it is, we'd be set. No need to have wires go into the brain and simulate neurons to trick us into thinking we're somewhere. We could simply (Not a simple task, but a simple concept) move ones consciousness from within their brain into lets say a virtually simulated one. Once "you" are in that virtually simulated brain it's just a matter of tweaking the code to have the neurons do what we want. Personally I think dedicating a bunch of research towards human consciousness has a higher chance of outputting answers rather than researching nanotechnology small and advanced enough to flow through the tiny vessels within the brain. 

[Loneranger]

Hy guys... m also reli interested in this topic ever since i watched that series of SAO.... n m also researching on brain but cant reli understand well since m just a high school student... so i hope u guys can do it.... keep working on it okay guys... 😁 n one favour... can u guys help me if i need some help during the studies of brains n all... plz..

[Razerwolf]

I really hope this can become a thing.

When I first heard of VR I thought of it just like they did it in SAO but then I got dissapointed because VR was not like I thought it would be.

Good luck with the research.

[Blood]

A cool thing I’ve seen is that we can try and force people into lucid dreams (Having full control of movement in your dream but no in real life) although I don’t see how an MMO type thing could work if it was only a dream

[Quickid]

Hey I'm 15 and I actually want to go to college to try and develop this stuff. I was thinking though couldn't we put some device on the headset to intercept the sensory neurons and input them into the game your playing? Also you could just create a 5 price nerve gear set with a sensory device in each to i fiercely the neurons and send them into the game, or alternatively just get to the central nervous system and place the interception device their

[koritokid123]

hi I'm not smart enough to add ideas to this but I was really wondering 

how long will this take until it is made?

I'm really excited for this and I wish you luck

thanks   

[Josua]

1. In the anime in the first episode i think it was, kirito explained that there was no actual 'pain' in SAO, but there was still the sensation of touch. I think this could make things a heck of a lot easier, as the 'NerveGear' wouldn't have to make you feel things in a really 'high quality' but only in the sense that something is there. this could be easily done by using a suit which sends electric impulses to a part near the where the character is 'hit', but i think it could be fairly similar by using a helmet, by sending impulses to the 'rough area' of were the character in game is being touched, and not having to be too precise about it.

Okay, there's no pain in SAO? Do you even watch the show? There's the Pain Absorber, which can be set by those who has access to or possess admin privilege. While this is mentioned in ALFheim Online by Kirito, by default, it is available in The Seed, in which it was based from the original development kit of SAO. So yeah.

 

If you set the Pain Absorber's level at 3 and below, there will be an actual physical effect at your real world body.

[GAHD]

Unsure how the cartoo's handwaium relates to a real world version of it though. a "pain absorber" program doesn't make much sense to me, since I'd assume anything capable of doing physical damage wouldn't really be viable for use.

I guess you're talking more about the degree of stimulation to the nerves? IIRC that book/comic/cartoon used technology extrapolated from real world things like EEG and MRI. Unfortunately microwaves don't really penetrate the skin so that's out the window for direct stimulus other than "oh, my skin, it burns."

Musk's neuro lace projects seem like a good place to look for IRL talking points. THe idea of embedding sensors/stimulators and whatnot though the vascular system or via cranial shunt have been around for quite some time. It would be quite silly and wasteful to design them to a strength where they can do damage. Suppose seizure/neuro cascade could be a thing when you're mucking about in wetware we don't quite understand yet.

Interesting related things:
-Biohackers like Lepht Anonym have been surgically enhancing their senses beyond the norms for a while now. The typical down and dirty is giving a sense of "electric touch" layered on though powerful permanent magnet implants. There's other projects I've looked at like SouthPaw to give an innate geomagnetic directional sense.

-Also fairly interesting synesthesia cyborgs like Neil Harbisson to look into. Guy "hears colour" because of his cybernetics.

It's a brave new world