Jump to content


Photo

How Close Are We To The Game Of The Anime Sword Art Online And The Technology?

SAO NerveGear Technology Physics

  • Please log in to reply
92 replies to this topic

#18 kageinuyasha

kageinuyasha

    Curious

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 19 August 2015 - 11:54 PM

 

Hello. I am Kaito and I was wondering how close we could be.. Now.. I understand everything about this topic vividly and how hard it could get. I lost my train of thought while making an account for this website, so I would like to hear your ideas.. Also, I may sound young (12yrs) but that doesn't mean I am incapable of anything this complex.. Now, I know that you might of heard that the "NerveGear"/Sword Art Online- The Game may come out in 2020 or 2022.. But.. This is just an estimate if you already know, you could also possible know how hard this subject is or how to reply to something like this.. So all I want is just your ideas.. I am basically asking you to day dream it.. Imagine you are creating the NerveGear, and the reply section is your notes.. Jot down anything you believe you would to to create it.. I would also like you to write your ideas on a list; This is because I like the idea of "Organized".. Let's see what you come up with.. And hopefully you can bring my train of thought back.. Because my thought was some really complex sh** that might've even blown your mind.. List your ideas below! thank you!

 

well to be fully honest you do not need to connect the brain to wires and hope that this will work ... in order for the full dive system to actually work you will need to simotainiously  have the brain functions of touch taste hear smell and feelings all working within the nerve gear its self while also having it only touch the players head. in order to do that you will also have to know how the brain works along with the daily body functions of the human body so as no to cause an incident in the real world while the user is in game. so i suggest that we take a look back at sao they used micro wave particles to attach the user to the game in doing so they could have easily killed thousands of people but instead they tested the safety device that delutes the waves so that the gear is safe for use i think the very first step should be locating a safety device such as this then comes the console then the game. sorry english isnt my first language japanese is but i hope that you know what i meant. and to be honest you would also have to have a very strong fire wall too



#19 kageinuyasha

kageinuyasha

    Curious

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 19 August 2015 - 11:58 PM

well to be fully honest you do not need to connect the brain to wires and hope that this will work ... in order for the full dive system to actually work you will need to simotainiously  have the brain functions of touch taste hear smell and feelings all working within the nerve gear its self while also having it only touch the players head. in order to do that you will also have to know how the brain works along with the daily body functions of the human body so as no to cause an incident in the real world while the user is in game. so i suggest that we take a look back at sao they used micro wave particles to attach the user to the game in doing so they could have easily killed thousands of people but instead they tested the safety device that delutes the waves so that the gear is safe for use i think the very first step should be locating a safety device such as this then comes the console then the game. sorry english isnt my first language japanese is but i hope that you know what i meant. and to be honest you would also have to have a very strong fire wall too

if you study the human body the nerves are what makes the body feel hear touch and smell and all the nerves are inside the spinal chord but you wouldn't want to tamper with that due to the fact that the body would react and paralyze the gamer in question so you could use a harmless neuro laser to also get the effects you want though you would still need the limiter to make sure the gamer isn't affected by the system.



#20 kageinuyasha

kageinuyasha

    Curious

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 20 August 2015 - 12:02 AM

if you study the human body the nerves are what makes the body feel hear touch and smell and all the nerves are inside the spinal chord but you wouldn't want to tamper with that due to the fact that the body would react and paralyze the gamer in question so you could use a harmless neuro laser to also get the effects you want though you would still need the limiter to make sure the gamer isn't affected by the system.

with this said you would need a test subject.. i suggest using a computer made brain... for example like they do in deadliest warriors where they have the human brain function in dummies so that they may test if a strike is fatal before actually using computer graphics to make the characters fight.

the nerve gear is a simple yet complex machine so in order to achieve the quality that you want it has to be precise



#21 kageinuyasha

kageinuyasha

    Curious

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 20 August 2015 - 12:07 AM

as quoted by my friend shadow skeptic though no idea who he go it from "the key to the mind is a great en devour" means that the mind is yet to be fully explored so the first generation would probably be like that... but it could be like the one from SAO in the fact that japan is three centuries ahead in technology .



#22 Iotus

Iotus

    Thinking

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 13 posts

Posted 20 August 2015 - 03:40 PM

well to be fully honest you do not need to connect the brain to wires and hope that this will work ... in order for the full dive system to actually work you will need to simotainiously  have the brain functions of touch taste hear smell and feelings all working within the nerve gear its self while also having it only touch the players head. in order to do that you will also have to know how the brain works along with the daily body functions of the human body so as no to cause an incident in the real world while the user is in game. so i suggest that we take a look back at sao they used micro wave particles to attach the user to the game in doing so they could have easily killed thousands of people but instead they tested the safety device that delutes the waves so that the gear is safe for use i think the very first step should be locating a safety device such as this then comes the console then the game. sorry english isnt my first language japanese is but i hope that you know what i meant. and to be honest you would also have to have a very strong fire wall too

That is incorrect. Sensory neurons are present throughout the body, in the form of mechanoreceptors, photo-electric cells and auditory neurons, to name a few. The Spinal cord is really only what connects these to the central nervous system. I do not see why there is a need for a 'very strong firewall', or where did you get the concept of 'micro wave particles'. Do not use SAO as a scientific resource, as in the end, it is a work of fiction. 

 

if you study the human body the nerves are what makes the body feel hear touch and smell and all the nerves are inside the spinal chord but you wouldn't want to tamper with that due to the fact that the body would react and paralyze the gamer in question so you could use a harmless neuro laser to also get the effects you want though you would still need the limiter to make sure the gamer isn't affected by the system.

Again, neurons are present throughout the body. The nerves within the spinal cord are really only transport mechanisms. A spinal cord injury is caused by trauma/ damage to the neurons and the spinal cord structure. It is true that it is dangerous to tamper with it, although i dont believe any reasonable person would play around with their brain either. Could you clarify what a 'harmless neuro laser' is? Perhaps you are talking about photostimulation, which is still in its infancy. 

 

with this said you would need a test subject.. i suggest using a computer made brain... for example like they do in deadliest warriors where they have the human brain function in dummies so that they may test if a strike is fatal before actually using computer graphics to make the characters fight.

the nerve gear is a simple yet complex machine so in order to achieve the quality that you want it has to be precise

????????

A computer made brain is only a model. It does not predict what would happen if you apply electricity to it. Which in any case should not be done in a non-clinical environment. Also, the 'nerve gear' has not even been developed yet.

 

as quoted by my friend shadow skeptic though no idea who he go it from "the key to the mind is a great en devour" means that the mind is yet to be fully explored so the first generation would probably be like that... but it could be like the one from SAO in the fact that japan is three centuries ahead in technology .

.........

I have to raise my eyebrows at that. Japan is not three centuries ahead in technology. It may be a leader in technological development, but it is by no means 300 years advanced. Again, please do not refer to SAO as your guide to discussing such VR-BCI technology, as it is in the end, a work of fiction.


  • CraigD likes this

#23 NotBrad

NotBrad

    Questioning

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 149 posts

Posted 20 August 2015 - 09:49 PM

I do not claim to be knowledgeable about such things as they are far beyond my abilities as of right now, I am just a slacker high-school graduate with the hope of becoming a Bio-Mechanical Engineer. But I do still believe what I say stands, though not in the context of my original statement. I had hoped to imply that the technology today would not be able to recreate anything like the NerveGear rig as represented in the show, but rather create a substitute for components we currently have no way of producing with things like haptic gloves. I failed to notice the lack of implication of that at the time of writing and had to work at 7:30 the following morning so I did not do my usual proof-read(as is evident from several grammatical mistakes within my post). But to be more specific and relevant, I think that systems like the Oculus Rift would be a great way to generate interest and investment but as standalone products do not even attempt to create an environment like that in SAO. What I should have stated is that today we have enough of the necessary technology to create a system that would at least be the framework for a game engine that could evolve over time, so new immersive systems that could potentially emulate the functions of a NerveGear rig some day would not have to start from scratch. Instead of having to create new programs to function with these new systems, we could rather be simply adapted to the pre-existing software that had been in development 

 

Hope this is constructive and relevant

-Brad


Edited by NotBrad, 20 August 2015 - 09:51 PM.


#24 CraigD

CraigD

    Creating

  • Administrators
  • 8034 posts

Posted 22 August 2015 - 11:47 AM

I had hoped to imply that the technology today would not be able to recreate anything like the NerveGear rig as represented in the show, but rather create a substitute for components we currently have no way of producing with things like haptic gloves.

I’m not picturing what you mean, NotBrad. Can you describe it with words or sketches?

The two main kinds of deeply immersive virtual reality technologies I can see are
  • Ones that create a perceived artificial world by emulating the effects of the artificial world on the user’s usual sense organs – eyes, ears, skin, musculoskeletal position sensing nerves, etc..
    Devices used by present day examples of these kinds of systems position-sensing 3-D headset displays and haptic gloves and position sensing systems like those I described in this post.
  • Ones that create a it by getting and putting information directly into the users brain/nerves.
    Present day examples include the Dobelle Eye and the BrainGate.
The first kind is usable for practical VR now, but is not fully convincing – that is, the user doesn’t become fully “immersed”, loosing awareness that they are using devices to, not directly experiencing, the artificial world. The second kind is able to provide only very crude inputs and outputs now, and will require fundamental breakthrough in neuroscience and technology to be as effective as the first.
 

What I should have stated is that today we have enough of the necessary technology to create a system that would at least be the framework for a game engine that could evolve over time, so new immersive systems that could potentially emulate the functions of a NerveGear rig some day would not have to start from scratch. Instead of having to create new programs to function with these new systems, we could rather be simply adapted to the pre-existing software that had been in development

I wouldn’t worry about the software part of these systems. Though software reusability is a worthy goal for programmers, we commonly rewrite every part of an application when incrementally upgrading it to have better or different functionality or to use different i/o hardware. The effort of fully rewriting software is often only slightly more (and in some cases, less) than reusing old software. My experience is in information, not game, systems, but from what I’ve read and consumed, this seems to be true in that area as well, the underlying engine software used by games being rewritten only a little less often than the game, and more often than hardware is changed.

If you build a much better piece of human-interface hardware, the software to support it can be written with much less effort.

That said, I should point out that the software depicted in SAO is far more advanced than anything around now, not in its graphics/physics, but in that it is procedurally generated – that is, the inanimate and animate features of the world it presents are not written by human, but by artificial intelligence that are effectively as imaginative and creative as humans. These fictional programs “write themselves” starting as small “World Seed” program, and presumably with only a little creative guidance and oversight by a few human administrators. Such a system would require a tremendous breakthrough in the present day field of artificial intelligence.

#25 Rachael521

Rachael521

    Curious

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 26 August 2015 - 11:18 PM

Hey future Nerve Gear creators :) I've (may or may not have...) no lifed the first forum thread that started this all and now finally want to express my idea on how we could possibly get the Nerve Gear out of the show and bring it to life :D My idea on VR with the Nerve Gear doesn't involve as much neurology or physiology though, but it could very well be fit in! Just for a start I'm 15 and (although I've learned quite a bunch from these threads) I don't know much about the nervous system or all these physiological terms :/ but I'm taking an AP Phsych class once school starts and I'm excited to learn more so I can contribute on this thread!

 

These threads are mostly discussing ways to make the person in a sleep like mode when they're playing in the game and be able to visualize what's happening in their sleep and so on. I'm not doubting this, because I'm sure this could totally be possible still :), but the and amount of research and people needed to figure all of this out requires a lot of time and numbers.. What I was thinking, involves more physical movement and staying awake. Instead of dreaming your characters actions and getting the games setting to pop up into your mind, we can get it to pop up right in front of your face in the glasses/lens. This way, you need to move in real life, yet in a way still stationary (like jogging in place) and the device on your head will sense your movements and actions (such as punches, swings, pokes, etc.). Yes, this is possible because 1. Occulus Rift   2. Hololens (I'm extremely excited for Hololens to come out and please look into these if you don't know about them because I honestly think they are going to change many people's work style..)

 

I have so much more that I would like to talk about on this subject too but I don't want to spam the thread with an idea that isn't even on the same track as the others.. XD I know this is totally on a different path from yours, being that Nerve Gear is supposed to be more of a neurological invention, but if we could combine physical activity and having the person move, I'm sure this would could be easier to get the sense of touch/feel in the game and be a fun way to exercise too if you're that kind of person :Crunk: jk jk :)



#26 NotBrad

NotBrad

    Questioning

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 149 posts

Posted 28 August 2015 - 07:56 PM

Hey future Nerve Gear creators :) I've (may or may not have...) no lifed the first forum thread that started this all and now finally want to express my idea on how we could possibly get the Nerve Gear out of the show and bring it to life :D My idea on VR with the Nerve Gear doesn't involve as much neurology or physiology though, but it could very well be fit in! Just for a start I'm 15 and (although I've learned quite a bunch from these threads) I don't know much about the nervous system or all these physiological terms :/ but I'm taking an AP Phsych class once school starts and I'm excited to learn more so I can contribute on this thread!

 

These threads are mostly discussing ways to make the person in a sleep like mode when they're playing in the game and be able to visualize what's happening in their sleep and so on. I'm not doubting this, because I'm sure this could totally be possible still  :), but the and amount of research and people needed to figure all of this out requires a lot of time and numbers.. What I was thinking, involves more physical movement and staying awake. Instead of dreaming your characters actions and getting the games setting to pop up into your mind, we can get it to pop up right in front of your face in the glasses/lens. This way, you need to move in real life, yet in a way still stationary (like jogging in place) and the device on your head will sense your movements and actions (such as punches, swings, pokes, etc.). Yes, this is possible because 1. Occulus Rift   2. Hololens (I'm extremely excited for Hololens to come out and please look into these if you don't know about them because I honestly think they are going to change many people's work style..)

 

I have so much more that I would like to talk about on this subject too but I don't want to spam the thread with an idea that isn't even on the same track as the others.. XD I know this is totally on a different path from yours, being that Nerve Gear is supposed to be more of a neurological invention, but if we could combine physical activity and having the person move, I'm sure this would could be easier to get the sense of touch/feel in the game and be a fun way to exercise too if you're that kind of person :Crunk: jk jk :)

Welcome fellow Neuroscience Nub! Though I may be incorrect about this, I believe there may be a place for this as a standalone product, but while this could be an alternative to a system akin to the NerveGear, I do not believe that it should or would be recognised as a replacement for full-dive technology. Personally I believe that a system comprised of mocap style movement data could potentially be it's own market niche, which is the one in which the Kinect and Wii currently reside. But more on-topic you could read some of the previous posts to get a good idea of what these guys are all talking about, but I personally would much rather a full-dive system than a more advanced Kinect...


  • Puppy7718 likes this

#27 Iotus

Iotus

    Thinking

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 13 posts

Posted 29 August 2015 - 12:45 AM

Hey future Nerve Gear creators :) I've (may or may not have...) no lifed the first forum thread that started this all and now finally want to express my idea on how we could possibly get the Nerve Gear out of the show and bring it to life :D My idea on VR with the Nerve Gear doesn't involve as much neurology or physiology though, but it could very well be fit in! Just for a start I'm 15 and (although I've learned quite a bunch from these threads) I don't know much about the nervous system or all these physiological terms :/ but I'm taking an AP Phsych class once school starts and I'm excited to learn more so I can contribute on this thread!

 

These threads are mostly discussing ways to make the person in a sleep like mode when they're playing in the game and be able to visualize what's happening in their sleep and so on. I'm not doubting this, because I'm sure this could totally be possible still  :), but the and amount of research and people needed to figure all of this out requires a lot of time and numbers.. What I was thinking, involves more physical movement and staying awake. Instead of dreaming your characters actions and getting the games setting to pop up into your mind, we can get it to pop up right in front of your face in the glasses/lens. This way, you need to move in real life, yet in a way still stationary (like jogging in place) and the device on your head will sense your movements and actions (such as punches, swings, pokes, etc.). Yes, this is possible because 1. Occulus Rift   2. Hololens (I'm extremely excited for Hololens to come out and please look into these if you don't know about them because I honestly think they are going to change many people's work style..)

 

I have so much more that I would like to talk about on this subject too but I don't want to spam the thread with an idea that isn't even on the same track as the others.. XD I know this is totally on a different path from yours, being that Nerve Gear is supposed to be more of a neurological invention, but if we could combine physical activity and having the person move, I'm sure this would could be easier to get the sense of touch/feel in the game and be a fun way to exercise too if you're that kind of person :Crunk: jk jk :)

To quote 'world war z', "if there are 10 people in the room, and 9 people agree, it is the job of the 10th person to disagree, no matter how far-fetched or crazy it may seem". Posting information that may shape and increase our knowledge is not something to shy away from. I would actually be interested in what you have to say. This forum needs a section for Augmented Reality as well anyways IMO. I sense that you would like an environment closer to Augmented Reality, which is in a way, more achievable than virtual reality at this moment. 

 

As Not brad said:

 

this could be an alternative to a system akin to the NerveGear

I cannot agree less. 



#28 CraigD

CraigD

    Creating

  • Administrators
  • 8034 posts

Posted 29 August 2015 - 10:21 AM

Welcome to hypography, Rachael, and start a introductions forum thread to tell us your life story, etc.
 

What I was thinking, involves more physical movement and staying awake. Instead of dreaming your characters actions and getting the games setting to pop up into your mind, we can get it to pop up right in front of your face in the glasses/lens. This way, you need to move in real life, yet in a way still stationary (like jogging in place) and the device on your head will sense your movements and actions (such as punches, swings, pokes, etc.).

This sound a lot like an idea I termed a “deep dive waldo”, discussed aroun this post and this one in the “Alternatives To Nervegear-Type Devices” thread.

Though the idea of a waldo-type VR interface is arguable almost 100 years old, my favorite fictional depiction of it is in Ernest Cline’s 2011 Ready Player One. I’ve been recommending this novel to everybody with an interest in VR since I read it 3+ years ago, and continue to, but for folk who don’t like reading SF novels, according to variety.com, Steven Spielberg will be releasing a faithful movie of it in Dec 2017.

I’m looking forward to seeing how the Warner Bros/DreamWorks people visually realize the technology Cline puts in words in his novel, and hoping it’ll be practically a blueprint for actual systems that will be built soon after the movie’s release. Fiction often drives real engineering and marketing, and TV and movies drive it most powerfully, IMHO.

#29 NotBrad

NotBrad

    Questioning

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 149 posts

Posted 29 August 2015 - 06:38 PM

I’m looking forward to seeing how the Warner Bros/DreamWorks people visually realize the technology Cline puts in words in his novel, and hoping it’ll be practically a blueprint for actual systems that will be built soon after the movie’s release. Fiction often drives real engineering and marketing, and TV and movies drive it most powerfully, IMHO.

I could not agree more, as of today the whole VR market remains a very small niche reserved for only the most die-hard PC elite whom can afford it, but give the concept a few movies to make it a household name and we could potentially get a large boost in demand for a consumer grade commercial product. Before anybody says "but hey NotBrad, won't there be bad representations too that generate fear?!?" Well to all those Negative-Nellys out there remember "any press, is good press" -That one creepy uncle with the lazy eye

 

But on a more serious note I believe that these two systems could actually share the market and be a sort of platform choice like Xbox versus PlayStation. And games would simply be cross-platform between the two systems and allow the freedom of choice. This would certainly provide a smooth transition from AR to VR tech as we possess most of the technology today to make a system similar to the one suggested by Rachael521. Using this logic, a game similar to SAO supposedly dynamically creates an infinite amount of new content while also maintaining character persistence, using this logic, we could build a game for the previous system and seamlessly transition to the new full-dive tech upon its release. This would ultimately provide the fundamental building blocks for a constantly evolving open world.

 

Sure hope I am not being too naive! 


Edited by NotBrad, 31 August 2015 - 10:01 PM.


#30 17robots

17robots

    Questioning

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 165 posts

Posted 06 September 2015 - 03:22 PM

That is true. It isnt going to sell out like thay but once we make more and word spreads, it should grow increasingly popular.

#31 AuraNightheart

AuraNightheart

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 36 posts

Posted 15 September 2015 - 03:15 PM

I'm going to agree with 17robots. People will be cautious at first with technology like this at first, if and when we achieve it. It's also likely to assume it will have to pass many safety checks by patenters to make certain that we cannot seize control of anyone's neurons or possibly injure the brain in the process of using a FullDive (or similar to FullDive) device. 



#32 17robots

17robots

    Questioning

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 165 posts

Posted 16 September 2015 - 02:37 PM

Indeed. That will be true. Yhat is why I want to make it as safe as possible.

#33 TheOriginalKirito

TheOriginalKirito

    Curious

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 20 September 2015 - 06:53 AM

Hey. I'm an expert at mmo games,and I can tell you now that we are only 5-7 years away from having technology like the nerve gear, mabie even better. Although the greatest challenge is writing what your doing in game to your brain and that's the only part of a machine like the nerve gear that hasn't been properly stable invented. And their are many theories of how to do this, but the one that will work isn't to do any of this fancy so called safe stuff but to just write straight to the brains major operation functions/points.

That's all I can contribute so far. If I find more I will edit the post.

😉 - see ya.

#34 blaiz3

blaiz3

    Curious

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts

Posted 20 September 2015 - 12:33 PM

TheOriginalKirito

Are you an expert in playing mmo games? Or are you an expert in the technology behind them? If it is the fore then that does not give you the ability to make those predictions without outward support. Sure, in 5-7 years we could have a very stable machine that does everything we want it to but it will not be the machine that we are aiming for nor would it be able to pass any government inspections. Anything dealing with the brain MUST be done either 100% non-invasive or be in a clinical environment. If this machine is to work and be available to the public then it has to be non-invasive. Writing to the brain is easy with direct access to the brain, or in short commands, but a continuous and reliable stream of information flowing to and from the brain is harder than even I imagined.


Edited by blaiz3, 20 September 2015 - 12:46 PM.




Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: SAO, NerveGear, Technology, Physics