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How Long Until We Could Make A Real Sword Art Online (sao) Nerve Gear Type Device

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#137 CraigD

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 08:59 PM

Welcome to hypography, KiritoBeater! :) Please feel free to start a topic in the introductions forum to tell us about yourself.
 

Step 1: develop technology to partially override the brain's sensory signals
Step 2: make this technology socially acceptable for commercial use
Step 3: incorporate into games, and make damn well sure it's free of brain damaging bu
Step 4: wear headphones hooked up to mmorpg
Step 5: fall asleep/somehow forcibly get into a lucid nightmare
Step 6: have the program tell you that you're in the game
Step 7: have the program tell you through headphones what's happening

We discussed a “shared dream” approach to immersive VR starting with this post – if you haven’t already, you might want to read that thread, which is much shorter than this one.

A neat feature of this approach is that dreams already have a mechanism that “overrides the brain’s sensory signals”, and also suppresses its motor nerves, so your steps 1-3 are already done without any artifice.

I’m fond of the idea, mainly because of personal experience: fairly consistently, when I fall asleep consuming any sort of non-interactive media – books, audio-video, audio only – my dreams are a fairly seamless continuation of the media. Since this is an unintended side-effect of the media – it’s not purposefully designed to guide dreams – I wonder if a purposefully designed, interactive system could work much better.

My major qualm with the approach is that, from personal experience and very fringy literature, I’ve not seen much evidence of awake humans being able to guide the dreams of sleeping ones, using audio or any other sensory input. Also, the goal is not only to use the neurological mechanics of dreaming as something analogous to a computer game system, but for the experience to be multi-player, that is, shared, requiring a much higher degree of control over the dream than simply prompting a dream that resembles some media.

A guided dream approach is attractive, still, because preliminary research can be done cheaply, and without very technical knowledge. Though I suspect a dream-based true “full dive” VR system would require intrusive brain activity imaging technology as advanced as that needed for a “NerveGear”-like system, with careful, well-controlled methodology, a person with little more than good technique could learn a lot about externally-influenced dreaming.

#138 reaper2

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 05:22 PM

but what system will be compatible with the device computers game consoles any thing like that and another theory I have is will you need to lie down while using the machine

 



#139 CaelesMessorem

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 09:19 PM

Finally decided to make an account for this thread. I've been following it for a while now and some of the things mentioned in previous posts are simply fascinating. My field of study/ expertise isn't in a science (it's business, which I guess is a science in its own right, and only studied a little so far), so hopefully my questions and comments don't come off as ignorant. If they do...my bad. :)

 

CraigD

I had a question about the nano technology referenced at the end of this post. It seemed like you were talking about a specific kind of nanobot/ technology, but looking around at other posts I didn't see anything specifically mentioned. Did you have something in mind, and if so sorry for missing it. If not, what area of application for nanotechnology do you believe this would most likely fall under? (Nanomedicine, nanoelectronics, etc. Just trying to clarify for research purposes)


Edited by CaelesMessorem, 08 March 2015 - 10:30 PM.


#140 CraigD

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 11:43 PM

Finally decided to make an account for this thread. I've been following it for a while now and some of the things mentioned in previous posts are simply fascinating.

Welcome to hypography, Caeles! Glad you decided to join in.

My field of study/ expertise isn't in a science (it's business, which I guess is a science in its own right, and only studied a little so far), so hopefully my questions and comments don't come off as ignorant. If they do...my bad. :)

I’ve been some sort of technology professional – mostly a programmer – since I was a teenager in the 1970s, and one of the most profound lessons I’ve learned is that technology is driven more by business factors – how to make money – than technical ones – how to make systems actually work. When it comes to predicting and influencing the future of technology, a deep understand of business – which my science and technical academic and professional experience gave me little – is key. Consider Steve Jobs vs Steve Wozniak.
 

CraigD
I had a question about the nano technology referenced at the end of this post. It seemed like you were talking about a specific kind of nanobot/ technology, but looking around at other posts I didn't see anything specifically mentioned. Did you have something in mind, and if so sorry for missing it. If not, what area of application for nanotechnology do you believe this would most likely fall under? (Nanomedicine, nanoelectronics, etc. Just trying to clarify for research purposes)

I described my “nanofiber” vision of body probes mostly in This 2005 thread. As best I can tell, it’s an original and unique idea, though I see it as a fairly obvious extension and combination of real world endoscopic medical technology and widely discussed but little to not at all realized Drexlarian nanotechnology.

Some history and examples may help clarify:

Since the 1990s, most vascular and much of other surgeries are done endoscopically – by making a small incision and inserting a tube that steered to the site of the surgery and through which various instruments can be passed. Though tiny compared to hands, forceps, and scalpels, endoscopic instruments are about 10000 times larger than the nanoscopic ones I imagine.

The Drexlarian idea of medical “nanobots” is practically a cannon of the science fiction mainstream, a regular feature in print SF and such mainstream fare as the Star Trek TV series of the 1980s and ‘90s, and a decade before Drexler’s writing, in the 1966 movie Fantastic Voyage. This vision, however, imagines self-contained “free swimming” machines. By the late 1990s, serious concerns appeared over whether such machines were in principle possible, reaching a peak in 2001-2003 Drexler–Smalley debate on molecular nanotechnology.

My idea is essentially for a loophole around Smalley’s well-founded and respected objections to Drexlarian nanotechnology. To my surprise, I remain the only person I know of promoting the idea online or in print. I’m hopeful that others will take it up, and that some will actually pursue basic research in it – that is, try building it.

#141 CaelesMessorem

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 01:56 AM

So from what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong (sorry if I'm wrong heheh), the wire would serve as a place holder for the nanobot within the neuron, as well as a tether to the power source and all the other machines in the cluster of fibers. The nanobot would essentially be acting as a medium in which signals to and from the neuron are interperated and relayed, and would in turn receive the response from its destination (a VRMMORPG given the thread), then proceed to interperate and "write" the signal back into the neuron as a perceived action/ sensation/ smell etc.?



#142 Soul

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 02:56 PM

After reading through the 148 posts above over the past few months, I've decided to finally join the conversation on a "Full Dive" VR device. Although I'm no expert in medical practices, nor EEG, I have had the dream of working with VR for a long while. I'm currently in my third year of studying animation, and hope to use my knowledge towards helping develop a system such as nervegear.

 

I find it so great that so many others are interested in the same pursuit, and would very much like to make this a reality.

 

But enough about me.

 

From what I've gathered from the majority of posts, it seems as though our major issues would be:

 

1. accurately reading brain signals and interpreting them as actions in game.

 

          1.a. Inhibiting said actions in real life

 

2. Submitting the variety of senses back to the user

 

3. Ensuring both of the above, while maintaining the safety of the user.

 

 

I've seen a lot of different proposed solutions to these problems on here and am very interested to see which of these can actually come to fruition. 

 

I hope to contribute more than this ^ soon, but for now I'm going to do some more research. I look forward to realizing this dream in the years to come.


Edited by Snow, 10 March 2015 - 03:02 PM.


#143 CaelesMessorem

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 03:25 PM

Stemming from the last link that FrankM gave in his last post, I found this in a link on the side of the page. It mainly focuses on applications for neural prosthesis, but I feel as though it was a pretty good compromise for the aforementioned idea given by CraigD.

It is BMI-based, which I know was received relucntantly up-thread, but it seems that it has the potential to provide clear readings of neural activity and could even be modified for the "writing" purpose also mentioned up-thread. Additionally, it could work in tandem with whatever rig is decided upon for Full Dive VR, allowing for the mental operation of the rig prior to diving. (Being that it was intended to be used with machines, the application makes sense IMO)

 

I also found this on the same site, which mentioned the use of a non-invasive BCI that (supposedly) conveyed a greeting from one person to three others in different locations by converting brain signals to binary, and from binary back to signals, which the recipients understood. Not sure how practical or useful this is given the problems with spatial and temporal resolutions of the devices used in the experiment, not to mention the plethora of signals that need to be clearly conveyed to VR and back, but being aware of it may at least help generate more ideas. Hopefully.


Edited by CaelesMessorem, 10 March 2015 - 10:41 PM.


#144 KiritoBeater

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Posted 11 March 2015 - 08:34 AM

1) thanks for your answer , well as i see you are not throwing this away but you are really attached to this subject , i hope you can make this real , we all wish it , but first we have to regroupe all kind of helpful people , we need a specialized scientific of the brain , developers , and doing this not for money but to make it real , anyway we will all get a reward doing this.. so let's make this out of our discussion. 

 

Hope some one agree that we have to start searching. 

 

Thanks again :D 

 

ps: just watched Sao , really good ^^.



#145 CraigD

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 06:37 AM

So from what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong (sorry if I'm wrong heheh), the wire would serve as a place holder for the nanobot within the neuron, as well as a tether to the power source and all the other machines in the cluster of fibers.

That’s the idea. (see the old hypography thread “Nano bots” for more)

When I first speculated about it nearly 10 years ago, I expected it to be the focus of much attention in the medical imaging and microsurgery fields, but to my surprise and dismay, it’s remained little researched. The most prominent research along these lines I know of was published in “Neuro-vascular central nervous recording/stimulating system: Using nanotechnology probes” by Rodolfo R. Llinás, Kerry D. Walton, Masayuki Nakao, Ian Hunter, Patrick A. Anquetil, Journal of Nanoparticle Research. (see journal article here (access required), “Wiring the Brain at the Nanoscale”, a NSF newsletter about it, and this hypography thread)

What I’m proposing differs in only a few ways from present-day implanted electrode systems:
  • Present-day systems have from 2 to 100 electrodes - the system I’m proposing more than 10000
  • Present day systems require brain-exposing surgery – the system I’m proposing can quickly and automatically install and remove itself
  • Getting data from and to the brain from outside is a challenge for present systems – the system I’m proposing does this innately, via its many nanoscopic penetrations of the scalp, skull, and brain


#146 blariviere

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:23 AM

I do believe 'BlackDimond' has it, our focus should be on the Nervous system along with the 5 senses.

For something as complex and difficult as this a purely external system is just not possible, rather a combination may be the key here. First injection of a solution of both Nanites as well as a large number of nanoscale strand Nodes, bundled up to allow them to be transported to the relevant nerve clusters, the Nanites would guide the strands of each Node to where they are needed to connect to, as well as repair any internal damage their passage has caused and maintain or build upon this network as necessary.

 

Once all parts are connected the strands and cores would intercept the impulses the brain sends to the various parts of the body and transmit this to the interface in the helmet.From there the helmet will use this data to manipulate the avatar and they send the data from the simulation pertaining to the avatar's movements and the 5 senses back to the helmet to transmit back to the brain for it to react and act upon.

 

For the senses Taste and Smell will be the hardest, as hearing can be simulated in the same way to the ear as a speaker, while sight will be harder to replicate in a way identical to the eye's it can be intercepted in much the same way. For touch this will be as easy as simulating the nerve impulses the various nerves in the skin send in response to contact of air, water and various materials and replicating then sending this. Although it will require much testing to get this right.

 

By far the hardest part will be intercepting the nerve impulses themselves, along with simulating Taste and Smell.

 

Again this is all guesswork but does anyone believe this combination of methods is more viable?


Edited by blariviere, 16 March 2015 - 02:27 AM.


#147 KiritoBeater

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 11:19 AM

I just wanted to ask you guys , the device able to make our VRMMORPG game works , is it existing , because , it's not easy to make this happen  , as you all know , it will make our brain work like we are in the real life , what I want to tell you guys is that , the device we are searching for is not just a device that will make the game appear on 3D mode , it's really like the Sao one , we will just sit and on our bed and just go into the game without doing any physical movements , so for a conclusion we are waiting for a creation of the same device that sao.



#148 CaelesMessorem

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:52 PM

blariviere: the idea you're talking about seems pretty close in nature to CraigD's idea, which I more or less condensed in this post. He also talks about it a little more as well as provides a link with more information in the post above the one I gave. We will definitely have to tend to all 5 senses to create an immersive VR experience, but for the time being, it would seem the most pressing issue is finding a way to read and write signals and actions to and from the brain. A combination of methods may work, but it's likely the less tech that can be use to acheive immersive VR, the better. Naturally a non invasive method would be prefered, but invasive seems to be the most likely option for the time being.

 

KiritoBeater: That is exactly what we are all hoping to accomplish here :) Though, it will likely not be EXACTLY like the NerveGear, as our current technology doesn't allow for a device like that. (Maybe in the future? Who knows)


Edited by CaelesMessorem, 16 March 2015 - 02:58 PM.


#149 KiritoBeater

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:20 AM

Hi again , thanks for answer.

 

So , as we all hope , we want exactly the same device , like the NerveGear using the 5 senses but in all forums , i never found a group saying it can be made on our time so i wish we regroup having the same goal of making this real and in our time and not in the future.. 



#150 JimSolo

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 09:20 AM

I think it be about time I stop lurking and start posting.

 

My name isn't Jim, but you can call me JIm. I'm your typical teenage theorycrafter with a triple didget IQ and a double didget income, in a basement with 300 computers and a passion for music and neuroscience, specifically FullDive tech.

 

I've been working on 'the project' for around a year now. Mostly research and develoupment, and small prototype systems as well as coding for pcs to understand the complex bandwidth of high speed EEG readings.

 

I'll post here every now and then, and I"m certainly not going to give up my secrets and have a little weed viewing the forums to steal them. Just be assured that I'm dedicated to this. If anyone knows any contacts or people I should be talking to about it, let me know. I'm not resting until I have a castle in the sky. Just... you know. Without the inability to log out and inevitable irl death if you die within a game.

 

Actually, my FD Tech build isn't geared towards gaming just yet. As I've spent the last 10 or so years essentially living in a hospital due to sick and dying reletives, I've built a passion for wanting to help the medical system as much as I can. Think Yuuki's medical fulldive during the end of Season 2 in SAO. Ones the commercial systems have been built and funded (through a combination of crowd funding and sales), develoupment will then go into standardising the hardware and building Nervegears as it were, although for copywrite reasons they will be rebranded.

 

I do know that other companies and corperations, and people like me, have been working on this system. My intent is to continue working on my build, and perhaps intergrade and work alongside these other companies. I shall need to do so once the project goes commercial anyhow. I doubt very much a single person can make a few onehundred thousand dollar fulldive systems each week for hospital sales. I do need a team, a workshop, and all the rest. For now though, prototypes is the stage I'm at, and details of the systems wont be released until it is patented worldwide.

 

For now though, I hope to see you guys around here and love to see that there's a community as dedicated and passionate about this tech as I am. Remind me to shout you all a beer once we get into true virtual reality.



#151 CaelesMessorem

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 12:54 AM

KiritoBeater: I very much believe we will see a form of full dive technology in our time. Just think of all the people that saw the show and were inspired like those of us here on this site, and this is only one of what is likely a plethora of sites talking about the same thing! It took a very brilliant and creative mind to come up with the idea for SAO, and it'll take many more to make it real. But I have no doubts that it will happen.

 

JimSolo: Glad to see another person interested! The more of us there are, the better. Cheers hoping you make a breakthrough!



#152 AuraNightheart

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 05:22 PM

This is actually the first post I've made, mainly because I found this forum earlier today. This idea peaked my interest, so I thought I'd take a look...

 

In Sword Art Online II some of the characters explain how the 'Medicuboid' technology works using an electromagnetic pulse wave system automatically installed in the NerveGear from the start. After hearing in one of my classes and watching a video on a group that copied the neurons of a worm into a robot to actually make it move and function basically like a worm (not anything advanced yet, such as pain). The basic movement is down and so far the research in that area is seeming to go well. 

 

My idea is that since many medical programs these days seem to use electromagnetic waves in some form or the other (such as MRI's) that it may be possible to use electromagnetic waves sent from different areas of the NerveGear system we're all dreaming about having one day. (Most of us, at least). It may be possible to send the electromagnetic waves out to focus on certain areas on the brain, since the brain is divided into two main parts and the right side controls the right side of your body and vice versa that if we had a main processor in the back for power, etc, then made the same electromagnetic wave emitters mirrored on each side of the NerveGear in specific positions it may be possible to convince the brain using those that certain actions are going on. For example, the sight nerve electromagnetic emitter would probably more towards the front, as that is the area of the brain where sight signals are received and processed.

 

Of course, this is all from just my own research, since I'm nowhere near college yet (almost to high school, so I haven't gone through any advanced physics or electronic engineering classes yet). Many people seem interested in this idea and the general premise that we could have a virtual reality world such as SAO in the first place is just amazing. Since more than one scientist has claimed we will have photo-realistic graphics by 2020-2021, I'm almost certain a NerveGear like system is possible within at least the next ten years, if not by the exact or similar time it was developed in SAO. 

 

JimSolo: I agree, I think that at first this 'FullDive' technology should be geared towards medical purposes at first. If they prove to be a success and move out of prototype phases, then maybe they can develop games similar to SAO using the technology. 

CaelesMessorem: I think that it'd be good in the future to slowly condense the tech down to the bare minimum to not be completely invading the mind. Kind of like how the microprocessor was invented to not have entire rooms full of wires and servers for just one computer. At first, the technology developed probably won't be as small as we're hoping and might be as big as the machine shown in SAO II in Yuuki's medical room, especially if it does end up being used for medical purposes first (kind of like how Kayaba donated some of his tech to the Medicuboid program). 



#153 CraigD

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 11:08 AM

Welcome, AuraNightheart! :)

In Sword Art Online II some of the characters explain how the 'Medicuboid' technology works using an electromagnetic pulse wave system automatically installed in the NerveGear from the start.
...
It may be possible to send the electromagnetic waves out to focus on certain areas on the brain, since the brain is divided into two main parts and the right side controls the right side of your body and vice versa that if we had a main processor in the back for power, etc, then made the same electromagnetic wave emitters mirrored on each side of the NerveGear in specific positions it may be possible to convince the brain using those that certain actions are going on.

The problem here is that the brain simply isn’t very sensitive to electromagnetic radiation. The nerve cells in the brain are very sensitive to chemical and electric signals they send to one another, but only a few kinds of nerve cells, those found in the eyes, are sensitive to a specific range – the visual range – of EM radiation. The writers of SAO take artistic license and simply ignore this, hinting that the NerveGear and similar devices can send signals to the brain using a combination of powerful electromagnets (like those in a real, present-day MRI scanner) and microwave range EM radiation.

There’s nothing wrong with taking artistic license. The goals of a fiction writer are mainly to entertain, inspire, and enlighten, their audience, so given the choice of strong science that would take away from those goals or weak science that supports them, a good writer picks words and images that seem like reasonable science over actual reasonable science which would seem weird or creepy. But we, as audience members and scientists, need to be careful not to confuse such art with reality.

For people early in their science educations, the best way IHMO to be able to do this is to learn science well, taking advantage of all your available resources, including traditional school and less traditional forums, like this one. Work hard, get smart.

There’re a couple of interesting exceptions to the rule that the brain isn’t sensitive to EM radiation:
In this post, I summarized some recent work the new science of optogenetics. While the brain isn’t naturally sensitive to EM radiation, its cells can be genetically altered to become so – in a sense, the brain can be made like the eye. You then have to make a way to get light to the brain, such as installing a glass window in the skull. Pretty weird and creepy, but very promising real-world science.

Another doesn't technically EM radiation, but magnetic fields. The fairly old (about 40 years) science around transcranial magnetic stimulation has shown that the brain can be effected by strong varying magnetic fields. These effects, however, are subtle and slow. To date, they’ve been shown to be somewhat effective at treating some kinds of pain and mental illness, and in a few experiments, crude communication (TMS and similar device can cause people to experience phosphenes, false perceptions of flashes of light), such as described in the news article"I emailed a message between two brains".

Despite being closer to the fictional description in SAO, I don’t think TMS offers much promise of making a real FullDive device. Optogenetics, I think, may be wonderfully valuable in brain anatomy and function research needed for the technology, but because of its need to genetically alter brain cells, won’t be useful for an actual, consumer-friendly device.

My personal favorite wished-for technology involves large numbers of scalp and skull-penetrating nanoscopic electrodes, a technology that doesn’t yet exist. I’ve written many posts about it, such as this one.

Edited by CraigD, 16 April 2015 - 03:35 PM.
Fixed broken link




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