Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Supervolcanos And Geothermal Energy


  • Please log in to reply
40 replies to this topic

#18 Qfwfq

Qfwfq

    Exhausted Gondolier

  • Members
  • 6241 posts

Posted 27 October 2011 - 09:10 AM

The example of Basel in that wiki goes to show how much caution may be necessary, even in moderate, traditional methods of exploitation. Forget about structures reaching the magma of a full fledged volcano, a highly and unpredictably variable environment.

Did any of you ever read about that volcano, in South America I think but I can't remember details, where the farmers got fed up and made a mammoth joint effort to stop its throat up and later on it exploded? I tried searching but found nothing so far.

...but that is no excuse for dismissing the competence of others out of hand. as you well know

I granted him the doubt that he wasn't able to sort out the things others told him.

...the methods and means of scientific enquiry.

Indeed, my remark about competence meant to include scientific method in general. That's why it isn't easy to get everybody to understand things. I've often been through this kind of thing with folks.

maybe i just need to fire up a spliff, eh? :esmoking:

Nah, smoking ain't healthy, just don't let it get to you.

Say, Turtle, do you know what's the first word a little baby volcano utters out of its mouth?

If you can't guess, you can see the answer by highlighting it here: "Magma!"

#19 Turtle

Turtle

    Member

  • Members
  • 14883 posts

Posted 27 October 2011 - 10:11 AM

The example of Basel in that wiki goes to show how much caution may be necessary, even in moderate, traditional methods of exploitation. Forget about structures reaching the magma of a full fledged volcano, a highly and unpredictably variable environment.

Did any of you ever read about that volcano, in South America I think but I can't remember details, where the farmers got fed up and made a mammoth joint effort to stop its throat up and later on it exploded? I tried searching but found nothing so far.

I granted him the doubt that he wasn't able to sort out the things others told him.

Indeed, my remark about competence meant to include scientific method in general. That's why it isn't easy to get everybody to understand things. I've often been through this kind of thing with folks.

Nah, smoking ain't healthy, just don't let it get to you.

Say, Turtle, do you know what's the first word a little baby volcano utters out of its mouth?

If you can't guess, you can see the answer by highlighting it here: "Magma!"


:lol: ok. i'll stop up my eruption & acquiesce.

good catch on the basel bore holes as a cautionary tale. :read: :naughty:

i can't say that i heard of the s. american business. let us know if you find something.

i certainly intended by my referenced post on supervolcanos to gently convey & otherwise inform in a manner everybody could understand. perhaps that all went unread rather than misunderstood. :shrug:

too late on the smoking caution. cough cough... (;))

magma! :rotfl:

so then some things on krakatoa that you mentioned. big as it was (and is) it is not classed as a supervolcano by any of my readings. :read: while the 1883 and previous eruptions were big, a good part of the island remained unlike true supervolcanos such as yellowstone or toba. virtually the entire yellowstone park is the 'mouth' of a volcano. that's roughly an area 34X45 miles for crying out loud! :cry: :lightning

for those with a genuine interest in the topic, we have a couple threads dedicated to the topic of supervolcanos. (both 'supervolcanos' and 'supervolcanoes' are acceptable spellings and give different results when searching.) duck & cover in the instance of a supervolcano eruption will just give you a quick chance to kiss your ash goodbye. :lol: >>

Supervolcanos!

Super Volcanoes

ps on a technical note, when magma emerges from a volcano it is no longer magma; it is lava.

Edited by Turtle, 27 October 2011 - 12:50 PM.


#20 belovelife

belovelife

    psionicist - preserver lv.143

  • Members
  • 1397 posts

Posted 27 October 2011 - 03:06 PM

is the difference between magma and lava in the dissolved gasses, or with just flowing above ground,

where when lava cools, you gat a lava rock, having many pockets and a surface littered with holes,

or when lava cools, you get obsidian, a black very hard stone, high in silicate and dissolved gasses

or when lava cools, and is mined, you get diamonds, (seediamond mining)

so which one is it?

,dissolved gasses within the lava/magma
lava/magma being on the surface

now for ratin the original idea, mabe a list of issues would help :(rate 1 to 10)

tunnel system:
2 tunnels,
A:1 1/2 distance from magma chamber to surface
B: integrated heat transfer system into concrete
C:heat trasfer system, upper shell (liquid copper [when molten]for water sealant and heat transfer)


tunneling system:
A: boreing tunnel to approximate depth
B: filling access to tunnel while tunneling towards chamber
C: lining tunnel with X thickness of reinforced concrete, upper potion Y thickness of copper and X thickness of reinforced concrete
D: effiently using a cooling system for machining the tunnel
E: removing water used to cool machine and bit for drilling

risk factors:
A: extreme pressure of magma chamber being suddenly released
B: tunnel integrity loss under extreme temperatures and pressures
C: tunnel integrity under sudden change in temperatures and pressures
D: local water around tunnels and in chamber danger due to extreme change in temperature
E: integrity of tunnel with sudden multiple impacts, at high velocity, of solid materials coupled with integrity of chamber being affected by instant temperature and prssure change
F: machine failure, and repair issues in mid tunnel, or late tunnel progress
G: high temperature pressure release system
H: magma/lava flow issues and clogs
I: may trigger volcanic erruption due to evacuated gasses from the magma chamber
J-Z: add risk factors

#21 Turtle

Turtle

    Member

  • Members
  • 14883 posts

Posted 27 October 2011 - 04:10 PM

[quote name='belovelife' timestamp='1319749611' post='311502']
is the difference between magma and lava in the dissolved gasses, or with just flowing above ground, ...[/quote]

the difference is 'just' with the above ground aspect. mind you it is a key difference and therefore the two different terms.

here's some information on lava. >> :read: but first, a bit about how to benefit from my/our reference(s). i quote just a portion of a reference, part to conserve space and part to keep within fair-use guidelines for copying material. when i quote such a snippet and give the source link i expect the reader to go to the link & read the entire article. i then expect future replies to be in light of having read the entire article because in general i have read the entire article in order to find what i want to quote. there is nothing outside of context. another reason to go to the source is that it usually contains numerous other links to other, often more detailed, sources. follow the yellow brick road. >>>

well, let's get to some lava then. :clue:

lava @ wiki
[quotename='wicked pedant']...Lava composition and behavior
In general, the composition of a lava determines its behavior more than the temperature of its eruption.

Composition
Igneous rocks, which form lava flows when erupted, can be classified into three chemical types; felsic, intermediate, and mafic (four if one includes the super-heated ultramafic). These classes are primarily chemical; however, the chemistry of lava also tends to correlate with the magma temperature, its viscosity and its mode of eruption.
...[/quote]

note that a single volcano, such as my nearby st.helens or adams, can erupt different types of lavas at different periods as well as different stages of an eruptive series event.

#22 belovelife

belovelife

    psionicist - preserver lv.143

  • Members
  • 1397 posts

Posted 27 October 2011 - 04:38 PM

also, as far as a solid core of a plantet with magma levels above, do you think that it moves within the planet towards the sun (gravity) back and forth according to the tilt of the earth and rotation of the planet, creating pressure

and hotspots that would cause supervolcanos ?

#23 Turtle

Turtle

    Member

  • Members
  • 14883 posts

Posted 27 October 2011 - 05:14 PM

[quote name='belovelife' timestamp='1319755133' post='311508']
also, as far as a solid core of a plantet with magma levels above, do you think that it moves within the planet towards the sun (gravity) back and forth according to the tilt of the earth and rotation of the planet, creating pressure

and hotspots that would cause supervolcanos ?
[/quote]

so what is above the core is the mantle which is not the same thing as magma. again, these two terms are in place to describe fundamentally different circumstances. magma is a smaller local phenomenon that is more liquid, i.e. less viscous, than the mantle, which is a rheid.

magma @ wiki
[quotename='wilty petal']...Despite being found in such widespread locales, the bulk of the Earth's crust and mantle is not molten. Rather, most of the Earth takes the form of a rheid, a form of solid that can move or deform under pressure. Magma, as liquid, preferentially forms in high temperature, low pressure environments within several kilometers of the Earth's surface.

Magma compositions may evolve after formation by fractional crystallization, contamination, and magma mixing. By definition rock formed of solidified magma is called igneous rock. [/quote]

the core is not 'sloshing' around down there due to the sun's gravity, but since it is directly coupled to the mantle there are dynamic pressure differentials among other active forces. the core does however rotate at a different rate than the mantle. Core Spins Faster Than Earth, Lamont Scientists Find

the core and the whole earth wobble because they are rotating, just as a toy top wobbles. see precession.

the cause of hotspots is not fully understood, however there is some evidence that at least some hotspots are the result of large asteroid impacts. to whit:
Antipodal hotspots and bipolar catastrophes: Were oceanic
large-body impacts the cause?


while yellowstone, a supervolcano, is over a hotspot, hawaii is over a hotspot too and is not a supervolcano but rather a chain of undersea volcanos.

so, by all means wait at least long enough before you reply so as to give the impression you have read my sources. :read: my quiescence is conditional & unpredictable. :lightning

#24 Turtle

Turtle

    Member

  • Members
  • 14883 posts

Posted 27 October 2011 - 09:05 PM

...
now for ratin the original idea, mabe a list of issues would help :(rate 1 to 10)

tunnel system:
2 tunnels,
A:1 1/2 distance from magma chamber to surface
B: integrated heat transfer system into concrete
C:heat trasfer system, upper shell (liquid copper [when molten]for water sealant and heat transfer)


tunneling system:
A: boreing tunnel to approximate depth
B: filling access to tunnel while tunneling towards chamber
C: lining tunnel with X thickness of reinforced concrete, upper potion Y thickness of copper and X thickness of reinforced concrete
D: effiently using a cooling system for machining the tunnel
E: removing water used to cool machine and bit for drilling

risk factors:
A: extreme pressure of magma chamber being suddenly released
B: tunnel integrity loss under extreme temperatures and pressures
C: tunnel integrity under sudden change in temperatures and pressures
D: local water around tunnels and in chamber danger due to extreme change in temperature
E: integrity of tunnel with sudden multiple impacts, at high velocity, of solid materials coupled with integrity of chamber being affected by instant temperature and prssure change
F: machine failure, and repair issues in mid tunnel, or late tunnel progress
G: high temperature pressure release system
H: magma/lava flow issues and clogs
I: may trigger volcanic erruption due to evacuated gasses from the magma chamber
J-Z: add risk factors


dude! don't edit new stuff in old posts!! :naughty: i know from experience it's a bad idea, and in this case it's got me cheesed again. :rant:
i read your entire post when you first made it and i answered all the questions. your op and this edit addition that i quote above is still & again, pipe-smoke claptrap. as i mentioned to Q, and linked a source, geothermal power generation is a well established discipline. if the engineers thought it was a good idea to do the things you suggest they would have done it. they don't, we don't, it's not.

behave belove or begone.

#25 Turtle

Turtle

    Member

  • Members
  • 14883 posts

Posted 27 October 2011 - 10:53 PM

insert fuming here: #@!!%51%#@@#%#@#!!!!!4!@$!#^!%^!???!!!!@$!#^@!$&@$&271

anyone with a true interest would look for information on their own. but noooooooo.... woops....that was 'sposed to be in fuming. my bad. :doh:

Better Planet The Great Forgotten Clean-Energy Source: Geothermal@ discover magazine dot com
(boldenation mine.)
[quotename='Prachi Patel-Predd']...So what is holding us back? Tapping geothermal energy means facing the harsh realities of thermodynamics: Typically, geothermal electricity is generated when hot water or steam underground is piped to the surface to drive a turbine, usually through heating an intermediate working fluid that actually turns the turbine’s blades. The turbine drives a dynamo that then produces the electricity. Crucially, the temperature of the piped-up water dictates the efficiency of a turbine-based system: the hotter the better, with a minimum of about 200 degrees Fahrenheit needed. But there is a limited number of geothermal hot spots that naturally contain water and that heat it to such high temperatures at accessible depths. Probably the best example of one in the United States is The Geysers. In a valley 72 miles north of San Francisco, steam billows from the earth’s surface. (This prompted the first European visitor to the site, in 1847, to believe he had discovered the gates of hell.) An elaborate array of gleaming metal pipes brings steam up from underground to drive turbines that generate 850 megawatts of electricity.
...
Doug Glaspey, chief operating officer of U.S. Geothermal, an Idaho-based company that just finished building a 13-megawatt geothermal electrical plant in southern Idaho, says he wishes he had “X-ray vision, so I could see where the reservoirs are. The highest-risk part of this business, bar none, is searching for reservoirs. Drilling a well costs two to three million dollars per well. If it fails, you got nothing.” Moreover, once companies hit a good hot spot, they still have to set up a power plant or a heating system, which requires big up-front costs and multiple wells. Glaspey estimates that it costs “$3.5 million to $4 million per megawatt” to build a geothermal power station.

In addition, geothermal power plants have energy efficiencies of just 8 to 15 percent, less than half that of coal plants. High up-front expenses plus relatively low efficiency makes the cost of geothermal electricity about double that of coal, which sells for around five cents per kilowatt-hour.
...
In total, more than 3,400 megawatts of geothermal power is currently under development in the United States, according to the Geothermal Energy Association. With the right backing, the heat beneath us could help keep the planet from warming up.[/quote]

The Geysers|Geyser Kids @ geysers.com

[quotename='calpine corp.']
Geysers Kids
...Calpine drills wells approximately two miles deep and inserts a pipe into the geothermal reservoir like a drinking straw into a soda.

The steam is piped out of the earth and cleaned of bits of dirt and rocks so as not to damage the blades of the turbines in the geothermal power plant. The cleaned steam is used to spin the turbine, which is attached by a shaft to the generator. It is the generator turning at 3600 revolutions per minute that generates the electricity. That would be like you being able to spin 3600 times in one minute!
...[/quote]

Posted Image

blove, why don't you contact Calpine Corp. directly and give them the benefit of your ideas? no sense of you messing around with us scrubs with no money, equipment, or insurance. no sense at all. b a good boy bluv.

main page: The Geysers
e-mail: cgvc@calpine.com
phone: 1-866-GEYSERS

#26 belovelife

belovelife

    psionicist - preserver lv.143

  • Members
  • 1397 posts

Posted 28 October 2011 - 01:12 AM

i have a friend who runs a think tank in japan :smart: , he lives 10 miles from a nuclear power plant :eek_big: that almost shared the same fate as fukushima :help:

he thought the idea was decent, and about a month after i talked to him, he had the honor of visiting a member of, (i think) their congress :reallyconfused:

if he brought the idea up, mabe it got some attention, or mabe he is at the same conclution as hypography, i don't know, :grouphug:

but he is a well respected scientist, so we'll see what comes of it (it was sometime this week):cap:

#27 Turtle

Turtle

    Member

  • Members
  • 14883 posts

Posted 28 October 2011 - 10:25 AM

i have a friend who runs a think tank in japan :smart: , he lives 10 miles from a nuclear power plant :eek_big: that almost shared the same fate as fukushima :help:

he thought the idea was decent, and about a month after i talked to him, he had the honor of visiting a member of, (i think) their congress :reallyconfused:

if he brought the idea up, mabe it got some attention, or mabe he is at the same conclution as hypography, i don't know, :grouphug:

but he is a well respected scientist, so we'll see what comes of it (it was sometime this week):cap:


communicating with your friend is not equivalent to communicating with engineers at Calpine Corp.. your incompetence shines again. :loser: :kick:

#28 Eclogite

Eclogite

    Creating

  • Moderators
  • 1300 posts

Posted 28 October 2011 - 10:38 AM

is the difference between magma and lava in the dissolved gasses, or with just flowing above ground,

where when lava cools, you gat a lava rock, having many pockets and a surface littered with holes,

or when lava cools, you get obsidian, a black very hard stone, high in silicate and dissolved gasses

or when lava cools, and is mined, you get diamonds, (seediamond mining)

so which one is it?

You have created a false dichotomy. (Actually it looks more like a trichotomy or a quadchotomy.) Lava is magma that has reached the surface. When it cools you get an extrusive igneous rock. This rock may have many holes ( geologist prefer to call them vesicles) that may or may not be filled with minerals (deposited by hydrothermal fluids). The proportion of vesicles will depend upon the gas content of the lava and the time taken for the lava to cool (and a host of other minor issues). Many lavas are quite free of vesicles. Some lavas have relatively smooth surfaces, other rough. The mineralogy and chemistry of the lava, the gas content, the mode of eruption, the surface conditions, will all have an impact on this. Obsidian is volcanic glass and is produced by rapid cooling of the lava that prevents proper crystallisation occuring.

If you had read the link on diamonds you provided then you should have understood that you do not get diamonds because lava cools. Go back and read the link again and I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have on that.

,risk factors:
A: extreme pressure of magma chamber being suddenly released
B: tunnel integrity loss under extreme temperatures and pressures
C: tunnel integrity under sudden change in temperatures and pressures
D: local water around tunnels and in chamber danger due to extreme change in temperature
E: integrity of tunnel with sudden multiple impacts, at high velocity, of solid materials coupled with integrity of chamber being affected by instant temperature and prssure change
F: machine failure, and repair issues in mid tunnel, or late tunnel progress
G: high temperature pressure release system
H: magma/lava flow issues and clogs
I: may trigger volcanic erruption due to evacuated gasses from the magma chamber
J-Z: add risk factors

You have done a good job of identifying risk factors. They are why your idea won't work.

i have a friend who runs a think tank in japan .........he thought the idea was decent,

The Japanese are famed for their diplomacy and tact.

#29 belovelife

belovelife

    psionicist - preserver lv.143

  • Members
  • 1397 posts

Posted 24 January 2012 - 11:29 PM

ok, so what if you coated the tunnel with diamond, and increased its strength in that manner, then you would also have to harvest the mathane from the ocean, like the methane bubbling up in the arctic

#30 belovelife

belovelife

    psionicist - preserver lv.143

  • Members
  • 1397 posts

Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:04 PM

Posted Image



lets look at this from another angle


(is there a utility that allows you to make an image with blender and allows you to change perspective of said image ?)

#31 belovelife

belovelife

    psionicist - preserver lv.143

  • Members
  • 1397 posts

Posted 26 January 2012 - 02:03 AM

communicating with your friend is not equivalent to communicating with engineers at Calpine Corp.. your incompetence shines again. :loser: :kick:

the parent co of them is chevron, by the way

#32 Eclogite

Eclogite

    Creating

  • Moderators
  • 1300 posts

Posted 02 February 2012 - 07:21 AM

ok, so what if you coated the tunnel with diamond, and increased its strength in that manner, then you would also have to harvest the mathane from the ocean, like the methane bubbling up in the arctic

How would you coat the tunnel with diamond? I know a little about diamond technology since I work for a company that, among other things, produces diamond cutting elements for drill bits. To produce a 19mm diameter diamond cutter one has to package synthetic diamond grit in a niobium cannister, embedded in a salt cube, and subject it to in excess of one million psi at around 1400 degrees C, for around eight minutes. Tell me how you are going to line several thousand feet of borehole.

You are aware that diamond is brittle? How will you ensure that it does not fracture under the loads imposed at the interface of borehole wall and diamond lining?

How will you deal with the fact that the temperature of the magma is just about right to cause carburisation of the diamond?

#33 belovelife

belovelife

    psionicist - preserver lv.143

  • Members
  • 1397 posts

Posted 03 February 2012 - 12:26 AM

i would do it systematically by creating a sheath that lines the tunnel, then pump in the methane, turn on the micowave, and let it build at i think 1 carrat per square inch per day, onece that section is done, move it to the next area,

give reason for getting that methane out of the arctic

and have an clean energy source for a very long time
and the temperature thing has to do with lack of pressure, at the level of pressure produced by venting the chanber should keep the diamond as diamond

#34 sigurdV

sigurdV

    Thinking

  • Members
  • 641 posts

Posted 03 February 2012 - 08:29 AM

around 6 years ago, i suggested tapping into the caldera to get a core sample of the earth, by making 2 tunnels, one for pressure release one for access

while saving potentially millions of lives, we would also get a core the we could investigate scientifically

this evolved into setting up geo thermal lines in the chamber that the magma would go into, to produce geo thermal energy
believing this is possible (and probly getting many different types of crystals from this), why not do this to all volcanos, the theory is sound

geo thermal energy while preventing devistating natural disaters
B)


This fan of nuclear (and casimir) energy thinks
geo thermal energy is the second best
realistic idea for future survival.

Hoe to make it safe and efficient
is a task for engineering.

My beloved departed stepfather a matematician happened to read one of my books by
Jules Verne,
and spent lots and lots of time designing electromagnetic guns drilled in mountains...
I think he is no longer alone.