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Aztecs and... Aliens?


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#1 klenole

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 09:06 AM

My dad and I were talking the other day about some interesting things. We were talking about the Aztecs, and all of their knowledge about the stars and stuff. It actually started off as a conversation about the new movie coming out, '2012'. I dont know if any of you have heard of it, but it seems sort of... ominous. Creepy. If you dont know what it's about, it's about the end of the world, basically. It's supposed to happen on a certain day in 2012. The same exact day that the Aztec's calender ends. Some astrologists, not that I really belive in that stuff much, but they say that something will happen on that day. Something very big, and possibly not so good.

But anyway, we were talking about the Aztec's knowledge. They were a primitive people... so how would they know so much? How could they possibly have built all of those monuments and cities, and the pyramids? My dad mentioned something to me, saying that they couldnt have done it on their own. They had to have had some help. For a moment it confused me. I thought, 'Well how could they have had help? There werent any others who could help them with things like that.' Then I realized what he meant. Why did the Aztecs spend so much time looking at the sky?

In the next few days, a documentary came on. It was about the Aztecs, and it was about the exact thing that we had been talking about. The Aztecs had made scupltures, statues, drawings, etc of people in spacesuits. It looked just like the spacesuits we used to use. Now how the heck would they know about things like that? Unless someone had come and helped them. And why does their calender end on that EXACT day? If someone, or something, did help them, then had that same someone predicted a solar phenomenon which could be the end of our world? I found all of this very interesting, and your thoughts on it would be appriciated.

#2 Cuauhtzin

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 12:04 AM

ok... First i would to make a correction. What are you talking about is the mayan calendar not the aztec and they were as different as the ancient greeks and the ancient romans.
And well, the mayans doseant said the wolrd is going to end in 2012, they calendar finish there... The actual interpretetios especulate saying that for them it could end with a cataclism or something like that, beacause in the mesoamerican culture there are some kinds of "cyclic world history" that reapted themselves. So they are very brave especulations more than theorys.

The thing i dont really understand is that about "very primitive people".. in what asspect?
As you have already noticed they were advance in the observation of the skys, as the mayans, arabs and other cultures. They have an herbal medicine system and a very compex tribute and administration system.
Their religion was ver very complex, in our days we can´t understand much of what they believe or how they believe it.
Why does they cannot achive those incredible things by their own?
That we dont know how they do it, dosent mean that they couldnt or the aliens do it.

#3 HydrogenBond

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 10:07 PM

I would guess all this happened because of a balanced blend of science and religion. The science aspect creates the inquisitive mind, the power of observation, the ability to organize data, in a way that could make predictions. The religious aspect creates the collective motivation to push the team beyond expectations.

Maybe a loose analogy of a combination of expertise and motivation was the Manhattan project during WWII. We had the scientistic skills combining with the extreme motivation of urgency, committing extensive resources, with an impossible deadline. With both working together, they did the impossible.

Building pyramids is not due to war but to honor living gods. But it was hard work and involved scientific precision and organization skills, for the entire project from R&D to construction. But it also required a team with a lot of motivation, since they had basic building technology.

The Mayan calendar is based on the stars, which is the place of some gods. If the gods are up there, they will look for them hoping to see them. Like watching clouds drifting by on a summer day, where we may see a dog, they would project into the night sky, until basic organization comes together, that others can also see. Then you start to look between.

The night is the time of dreams, or the time of the spirits. I can see a semi-dream state, where the power of the unconscious mind makes the projection effect easier. During the day, they plot the data and marvel that the spirits revealed this to them. One has to think like the times and not be too modern.

#4 Cuauhtzin

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 10:16 PM

Theres an excellent number in "Arqueologia mexicana" dedicated to the american pyramids, and ideas of how they do it. If i can get it, i would translate something of that.

#5 Turtle

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 10:55 PM

ok... First i would to make a correction. What are you talking about is the mayan calendar not the aztec and they were as different as the ancient greeks and the ancient romans.
And well, the mayans doseant said the wolrd is going to end in 2012, they calendar finish there... The actual interpretetios especulate saying that for them it could end with a cataclism or something like that, beacause in the mesoamerican culture there are some kinds of "cyclic world history" that reapted themselves. So they are very brave especulations more than theorys.


:) we have discussed this quite a bit here, and the calculations aside, this post sums up the evidence behind what you say. (clicking the blue arrow by the quote name takes you to the post & thread. :idea:)

I appologize if this has already been commented on in this thread, but it seems relevent to current discussion.

Here are the only known glyphs talking about Dec. 2012 as mentioned above (Tortuguero Monument 6):

Posted Image
http://www.wayeb.org...t_mon_006_a.png

It was discovered some 30 years ago and was most-recently translated (most-recent version of the translation) by Dave Stuart in 2006. Here it is:


-source

And... yeah... there we have it :doh:

~modest


i don't know about aztec carvings, but this myan carving continues to foster the "alien"/meso-american connection meme. :cry: :)

Posted Image
Ancient Spacemen?, page 1

:D
:)



#6 Cuauhtzin

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 11:24 PM

Yes, some of that things really make us thing.. but, well to affirm that this is a man on a spaceship... well I like to have the mind open, but i cant believe it without some more evidence xD.

..........

Well this is what i know about mayan profecies, i cannot quote anything, because the mayans never said the would was going to end, and as i know they doesnt let us "7 mystic profhecys" .
Turtle: i read the link you put there, and what the guy that is tlaking abour a book and the profecys and all that, i am almost sure he read the book of some one who invented the profhecys.
The Maya (and most of the mesoamerican people) understand the world trough cycles, when a cycle finish a nother beguin, something like the 4 stations . The crops, the rituals, etc were all make in that cycles, for this they made a calendar (that the Mexhicas "aztecs" take). In the calendar there are some special dates, where a cycle finish and a new one beguin.
As i know the mayan alpahbet (because the last investigations said that is something like an alphabet not Jeroglyphe) has not been decipher yet. There is a great confusion when people talk about the mayan calendar because they tend to confuse it with the aztec sun stone (That is not a calendar, si a stone where all the comsmovision is encrypted). The idea of each cycle or era finished with a cataclysm is from AZTECAS not maya.

#7 Turtle

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 12:41 AM

...Turtle: ...As i know the mayan alpahbet (because the last investigations said that is something like an alphabet not Jeroglyphe) has not been decipher yet. There is a great confusion when people talk about the mayan calendar because they tend to confuse it with the aztec sun stone (That is not a calendar, si a stone where all the comsmovision is encrypted). The idea of each cycle or era finished with a cataclysm is from AZTECAS not maya.


acknowledged. i get the sense you are referring to david stuart & his relatively new "breakthroughs" in translating mayan. while a lot hasn't been translated, it's as much because the already collected/recorded material hasn't been revisited with the new understanding, more than the language/symbols not being understood...erhm...as i understand it. :)

anyway, good call on the sunstone confusion & here's an image of it that ought to clear things up. :) where's waldo? :)
Posted Image source

#8 Cuauhtzin

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 12:56 AM

ok, maybe you could be right. Im not a mayan expert, and also im more familiarized with the nahuatl culture.

Yeah!, The sun stone!
In the center you can see Tonatiuh a solar "deity", his tongue is a sacrifice knife of pedernal.
He also has to hands/claws holding human hearts. there are 4 images in the central circle, one of Quetzalcoatl (ehecatl), Tezcaltlipoca (the jaguar), tlaloc y Chalquihue. Each on corresponde to a passed ear or "sun". We are supposed to be in the 5 sun that is going to end with huge earthquakes!
In the second circle you can saw 21 figures (i remember 21) each one for one day of the month.
The stone is rounded by to fire serpents that are supposed to give movment to all the sun.
for the Mexhicas, all was bassicly about movement, that gives life to everything, the blood in the sacrifies was suposed to be like fuel or food to the sun so it can be moving for a while.

#9 Turtle

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 01:14 AM

ok, maybe you could be right. Im not a mayan expert, and also im more familiarized with the nahuatl culture.


i'm enthused & delighted to have your native cultured brain to devour...erhmm... to have over for dinner & a chat. :) that bit about "hill" not part of the name went by the non-native speakers if i recall.

Yeah!, The sun stone!
In the center you can see Tonatiuh a solar "deity", his tongue is a sacrifice knife of pedernal.
He also has to hands/claws holding human hearts. there are 4 images in the central circle, one of Quetzalcoatl (ehecatl), Tezcaltlipoca (the jaguar), tlaloc y Chalquihue. Each on corresponde to a passed ear or "sun". We are supposed to be in the 5 sun that is going to end with huge earthquakes!
In the second circle you can saw 21 figures (i remember 21) each one for one day of the month.

i count 20 "signets" in the banded ring immediately surrounding the central disk?

...The stone is rounded by to fire serpents that are supposed to give movment to all the sun.
for the Mexhicas, all was bassicly about movement, that gives life to everything, the blood in the sacrifies was suposed to be like fuel or food to the sun so it can be moving for a while.


hey; it musta worked! the sun is still moving!!! :) :doh: good stuff though; very fun & informative. got some more on the aztec earthquake prediction business? not sure i heard that one yet, unless it's that confusion with the mayans that you mention. :)

#10 maikeru

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 05:46 AM

My dad and I were talking the other day about some interesting things. We were talking about the Aztecs, and all of their knowledge about the stars and stuff. It actually started off as a conversation about the new movie coming out, '2012'. I dont know if any of you have heard of it, but it seems sort of... ominous. Creepy. If you dont know what it's about, it's about the end of the world, basically. It's supposed to happen on a certain day in 2012. The same exact day that the Aztec's calender ends. Some astrologists, not that I really belive in that stuff much, but they say that something will happen on that day. Something very big, and possibly not so good.

But anyway, we were talking about the Aztec's knowledge. They were a primitive people... so how would they know so much? How could they possibly have built all of those monuments and cities, and the pyramids? My dad mentioned something to me, saying that they couldnt have done it on their own. They had to have had some help. For a moment it confused me. I thought, 'Well how could they have had help? There werent any others who could help them with things like that.' Then I realized what he meant. Why did the Aztecs spend so much time looking at the sky?


First, drop the notion that the Aztecs were a "primitive people" and then you can consider and reflect on them better. Countless times in history, we run across examples of conquerors regarding the conquered as "primitives" and the conquerors seeing themselves as "civilized." Most of those distinctions are just hogwash. If anything, I bet I could argue that most modern civilizations today are pretty primitive. It's best to regard civilizations and societies by their own merits.

Most ancient agricultural societies (and still many today) had a connection to the heavens because it was connected to planting, harvest, irrigation, rains, floods, drought or dry times, etc. You need to know the seasons to better grow and keep your food, and the heavens change with the change of the seasons. For the average city dweller who might only observe the unchanging nature of his apartment or house ceiling, this is not a reality anymore. For ancient peoples who could see the sky, it was. (And still is for rural folks.) There is also a strong relationship between religious classes or elites being the ruling class or allied with the ruling class, and these classes of society often tend to be the most educated, so they act as administrators and organizers for their societies. Knowing how mysterious the skies are and how critical the timing of the seasons are to life, food, and ritual, maybe it's no surprise that people gradually accumulate useful and explanatory bits of information that are organized and evolved into elaborate, complex systems that, in a sense, accurately reflect the heavens above and the earth below, as those peoples might see it.

I did a lot of reading on the Mayans, Aztecs, and Incas back when I was at BYU, because I needed to clarify my own knowledge about the history of the Americas. I've forgotten a lot, but one thing a little reading in the library taught me was that 95% of that stuff with Chariots of the Gods or similar inspiration is bull****. It's fine fiction, but don't mistake it for reality. The reality of the situation is simpler and more surprising.

One more thing is that the ancient Maya built their structures out of a type of lime plasters, mortars, cements, and concrete. If you want to ask how the ancient Maya or Aztecs built their cities, you might as well ask how the ancient Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians did theirs. Cement and concrete are ancient building materials, not unique to the Old World.

SpringerLink - Journal Article
Puuc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cement and concrete have the virtues of being highly durable, modifiable, and versatile.

For that matter, it also appears the Egyptian pyramids are made of a form of concrete.

The Surprising Truth Behind the Construction of the Great Pyramids | LiveScience

"Primitive" peoples were making concrete, "modern" peoples still make and use concrete. It's clear that modern peoples need the help of aliens to build their churches, temples, and skyscrapers, right?

#11 Cuauhtzin

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 04:58 PM

Hello people!

Turtle: i thinked you were the native :)
Well, about the 21 signs,m you are right, they are 20. And i have a incredible explication why are them 20. For the nahuatl the count system was bigecimal not decimal as we now to day. The calcoluos they made are based in the "20" because is a natural number. If you want an example count the number of fingers you have in your hands and feet. XD
Well, the earthquake predictions form earthquakes are very effective, Haiti, perú, méxico, and the tsunamis (that are practically earthquakes). The earthquakes happen because the "Cipactli" a mythologycal likecocodrile monster who lives under the earth and when it moves the earth crumbles!

I could not say it better maikeru, the observation of the skyes is the base of agricultural civilizations. As you said the structures of the maya and aztec were built with some amazing... (Mezclas¿?), but what i really found amazing is how de incas put stone with stone without concrete or anything to paste them, and they are still as strong as they were 500 years ago.

#12 Turtle

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 06:07 PM

[quote name='Cuauhtzin']Hello people!

Turtle: i thinked you were the native :P [/quote] :bow: you are too kind young sir. i'm also interested in your knowledge of herbal medicine, but that's for other threads we have unless aliens got somethin' to do with it. :evil: just wanted to mention it in passing. :)

[quote name='chuasin']Well, about the 21 signs,m you are right, they are 20. And i have a incredible explication why are them 20. For the nahuatl the count system was bigecimal not decimal as we now to day. The calcoluos they made are based in the "20" because is a natural number. If you want an example count the number of fingers you have in your hands and feet. XD[/quote] now mind you i think that too much "mysticalness" is made of all this, not only in what we have covered but in what i'm coming next with. to whit, i refer you to another thread here & the book Synergetics: explorations is the geometry of thinking by buckminster fuller, as he goes to some length into the why's & wherefore's of base 20...in his "over mystical-cated" in my honest opinion mind that is. so, here's the stuff mi amigo. :read:

(click blue arrow by my name in quote header to go to the post/thread on that topic :idea:)

[quote name='Turtle']Explorations in the Geometry of Thinking. i don't recall if i conciously borrowed "exploration" from buckster's title for my katabatak thread title or not, but no matter; it's all the out bucky needs when assertion comes to criticize. :D

section 1210.00 epitomizes exploration-in-geometric-thinking, and while i chose to minimize "numerology" in describing my work with modulo arithmetic, bucky saw fit to make it a headliner. possibly a difference of his interest in the thinking of it, and my interest in the doing of it. fortunately, our thinking is in congruence. :hihi: :Alien:

pages 751&752 §1210.00 Synergetics: Explorations in the Geometry of Thinking

1200.00 NUMEROLOGY
[quote name='Explorer']The Mayans used base twenty in their numerical system
By counting with both their fingers and toes.
The number twenty often occurs
In a "magically" strategic way.
For an example
We can look at symmetrical aggregates
Of progressively assembled spheres
Closest packed on a plane__a pool table.
First take two balls and make them tangent.
Tangent is the "closest"
That spheres may come to one another.
We may next nest a third ball
In the valley between the first tangent two.
Now each of the three spheres is tangent to two others
And none can get closer to each other.
These three make a triangle.
There is no ball in the center
Of the triangular group.
We can now add three more balls to the first three
By arranging them tangentially in a row
Along one edge of the first three's triangle.
As yet, all six balls are arranged
As outside edges of the triangle.
Not until we add a fourth row of balls
Nested along one edge of the triangular aggregate
Does a single ball become placed as the nuclear ball
In the center of the triangular "patterned" ball pool-table array.
Ten is the total number of balls
In this first nuclear-ball-containing triangle:
Nine surround the nuclear tenth ball.
And since a triangle is a fundamental structural pattern,
And since the triangular aggregate
Of nine balls around a nuclear one
Is a symmetrical array,
Man's intuitive choice of "congruence in modulo ten"
May have been more subtly conceived
Than simply by coincidence
With the ten digits of his hands.
...[/quote]
*addendum: while i apparently endorse bucky's work in that post, that's before i read the math part & ripped him good for it afterwards! :) :hihi:[/QUOTE]

[quote name='c-migo']Well, the earthquake predictions form earthquakes are very effective, Haiti, perú, méxico, and the tsunamis (that are practically earthquakes). The earthquakes happen because the "Cipactli" a mythologycal likecocodrile monster who lives under the earth and when it moves the earth crumbles! [/quote] well, earthquakes happen all the time, and even current science cannot predict where, when, and how big, so we need more than that to satisfy scientific enquiry.

[quote name='Cuauhtzinis a tough nameto play with! ;)]I could not say it better maikeru' date=' the observation of the skyes is the base of agricultural civilizations. As you said the structures of the maya and aztec were built with some amazing... (Mezclas¿?), but what i really found amazing is how de incas put stone with stone without concrete or anything to paste them, and they are still as strong as they were 500 years ago.[/quote']

well, trial & error pretty much covers it for me. same as the egytptians earliest pyramids not holding up so they tried different techniques 'til they got something that worked. this is where all the secret business of stone workers throughout history comes from. the guy that can do the work, gets the contract, and the guy who knows how to do the work, can do the work, so keep your knowledge to yourself & the few who need to have it. no different today, i wager. :doh:

#13 Cuauhtzin

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 06:41 PM

well, form the herbal medicine i have not much information, although i know a guy is making his licenciature tesis from the herbal medicine of the raramuris, and myabe i can gather some information about it. but i will make a thred to treat it properlly.

When i reffer to the earthquakes i was not saying the en dof the 5 sun was coming, but more in a way the phenomenoms the aztecs will associete with the end of their sun and the mythologycal Cipactli.

About, numerology and the geometry i do not understand it pretty much, y will read it with more calm in the night.

And of course there are some theorys about the incas and their arquitecture, but when you look the buildings and you see the enviroment and that today maybe will be impossible, or at least to difficult to even try it to make something i like, that one only can marvel of this..

http://teamwork.jaco...upichu_peru.jpg

And well, of course there is mystacles in all this!, the not understanding is explain with magic, and magic is not more that the knowledge we ignore...

#14 Turtle

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 06:52 PM

well, form the herbal medicine i have not much information, although i know a guy is making his licenciature tesis from the herbal medicine of the raramuris, and myabe i can gather some information about it. but i will make a thred to treat it properlly.
http://teamwork.jaco...upichu_peru.jpg

And well, of course there is mystacles in all this!, the not understanding is explain with magic, and magic is not more that the knowledge we ignore...


well said. :) are you sure you are just 19? :hihi: anyway, putting image tags around a photo url will get it to display here. :doh: nice shot! :evil: [img] url [/img]

Posted Image

here's a couple threads on the herbs:
>> Ethnobotany

>> Anit-Viral Plants

#15 Cuauhtzin

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 01:44 AM

thanks, im learning about how to quote, then the images would come muajajaja!, i hate technology -.-

And well, what age are you?

#16 maikeru

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 02:28 AM

I could not say it better maikeru, the observation of the skyes is the base of agricultural civilizations. As you said the structures of the maya and aztec were built with some amazing... (Mezclas¿?), but what i really found amazing is how de incas put stone with stone without concrete or anything to paste them, and they are still as strong as they were 500 years ago.


Si, todos las construcciones y la arquitectura d los Maya, d los Inca, etc. son super genial. (Yes, all the constructions and architecture of the Maya, of the Incas, etc. are super cool.) And their agricultural techniques likewise amazing, innovative, and creative. I'm fascinated with Central America and South America. I'm not well versed on Inca architecture, but their mountaintop cities like Machu Picchu and extensive roadworks are just wow. I wish I could see it sometime in person.

#17 Turtle

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 10:24 AM

thanks, im learning about how to quote, then the images would come muajajaja!, i hate technology -.-

And well, what age are you?


:eek2: viejo como la suciedad amigo. me puedes llamar abuelo. :eek: (the only gray-beard emoticon i can find. :hihi:)

Si, todos las construcciones y la arquitectura d los Maya, d los Inca, etc. son super genial


PBS ran a NOVA special last night on machu pichu; they show how the stones were quarried, worked, and set. >> NOVA | Ghosts of Machu Picchu | PBS